CIRCLET OF PERSUASION


Rules Questions


I can not understand, what does it mean "Charisma-based checks"... ALL CHARISMA-BASED skills + Charisma ability cheks, or only second?

Thanks :)


All.

If it's a check and it's based on charisma, it gets affected.

This includes skills.

This does not include static modifiers, like DCs, if I recall.


um... where are you getting that line from? most spell effects say all charisma-based checks and charisma-based skill checks. so if you line is really only the cha-checks then it's only cha-checks and not skills. It's like a str-check to break a door, or a con-check to stabilize. There are stat checks that aren't skills.

edit - looking at the item I feel the intent of it for sure is for charisma skill checks too. I don't know if that's the RAW of it though.


Well now you've done it, asking about ability-based check! Get ready for the action folks. As you can and will see, this is a heavilty debated topic.


Circlet of Persuasion

Quote:
This delicately engraved silver headband grants its wearer a +3 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks.

Charisma

Quote:

Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.

You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:

Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks.
Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
Channel energy DCs for clerics and paladins attempting to harm undead foes.
Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a number of bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a bard, paladin, or sorcerer spell is 10 + the spell's level.

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Ability Damage: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. The Ability Damage penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy. See Ability Score Damage below.

Notes:

Regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; even though plants are alive, they are objects, not creatures.

There are multiple Charisma-based checks, including skill checks.

As spell DCs are not "checks" (nor are bonus spells per day or a Leadership score), these are not increased.

Skills and base checks, however, are.

EDIT:
Check

Quote:
A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks and saving throws.

Also, the bolding and increased size is, of course, all me, and is not done for the purpose of pettiness, yelling, or any such thing, but instead just to bring emphasis to what I see as the salient points and quotes of that particular passage.


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Basically, a check is when you roll a d20.

I would allow it for:
Charisma-based skills
Charisma ability checks (used in certain charm and calling spells I think)
Concentration checks for sorcerers and bards (this one is heavily debated)
Class abilities that use Charisma (like Wild Empathy)

I would disallow it for:
Attacks
Combat Maneuvers
Saving Throws


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IIRC from the last thread about circlet of persuasion a paladin with divine grace can also apply it to her saving throws.


What about saving throws that are impacted by divine grace? Do these then become charisma based checks as well?


Well there it is above me. Hit refresh before posting folks... thats the lessen.


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If a saving throw is based on cha as ref for some oracles, it should benefit from it.
Same with initiative for someone with noble scion (I think its war).

It should not apply to saves just benefiting from divine grace because that save is still based on its normal stat. Same with the new feat, divine protection or what it is called.


Well here is the thread I mentioned : Circlet of Persuasion and Concentration checks


i disagree.

take the conditions per example:

Quote:

Shaken

A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

Sickened

The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

and etc examples.

they clearly state: skill checks AND ability checks. if skill checks were part of the ability check, then they wouldn't need to spell both out


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Oh look, this one is back. For future reference OP, it helps to post the text of the item in question before asking a question. Tacticslion has helpfully posted all the appropriate bits, which are essentially: if you roll a d20 plus some stat (before any modifications, stat meaning Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha) it's a check, if the stat you add is Charisma this applies, if you add your Charisma in addition to the normal stat than this does not apply, if something lets you substitute Charisma for the normal stat on a check then this applies.

So concentration checks for Cha-based casters are a Cha-based check.
Initiative with Student of War (I think) is a a Cha-based check.
All skills that are Cha-based are Cha-based checks.
Any skill you can "use your Cha modifier instead of the normal stat" are Cha-based checks.
Cha ability checks are clearly Cha-based checks.
Reflex saves if you substitute your Cha for your Dex (Oracles) are a Cha-based check.

Things that do not qualify are Paladin saves and Smite (Divine Grace adds Cha as a bonus to saves, does not change what they're based on, ditto Smite), skills checks you have replaced the Cha part of (pragmatic activator? lets you use Int for UMD instead of Cha), and Leadership Score (based on Cha mod, but no roll is ever made).

SKR, before he left, said that it should not apply to attack rolls or saving throws (as written it does), but anything else that calls itself "check" and is based on Cha (not just Cha is added at some point) it should apply to.


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My favorite use for it is wild empathy, but I'm a druid nut.


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If they meant "ability checks" only, the word "ability" should be in the item's description.

Glory domain: "... Charisma-based skill check"

Courtier’s Outfit: "... Charisma-based skill checks"

Eagle's Splendor: " ... adding the usual benefits to Charisma-based skill
checks"

How can anyone argue that a charisma-based skill check is not a charisma-based check?

Furthermore, the name is Circlet of Persuasion. I'd say it's preeminently intended to work with the social skills bluff/diplomacy/intimidate.

edit: fixed the bolding


it's just b in the [] not bold. Apart from that you are right that skill checks that are based on cha are cha based checks.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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For the record, two different developers have commented that the circlet is fully intended to work on more than just skill checks and ability checks, including concentration checks for CHA-based casters.


Since when is a saving throw considered a "check"?

Applying it to Cha-based concentration checks sounds right, because, well, it's a check. But AFAIK, saves are not considered checks.


From the other thread:

James Risner wrote:


Core wrote:
Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.
Again, since Check and Concentration Check are separate entries, if the logic is that Concentration is a "Check" then there isn't any way to argue that a Save or Attack roll isn't a Check and doesn't get the Circlet bonus added if Cha is also being added.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Since when is a saving throw considered a "check"?

"A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks and saving throws."


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I believe 3B above has the right of it.


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cdglantern wrote:

What about saving throws that are impacted by divine grace? Do these then become charisma based checks as well?

Divine Grace says:

Quote:


Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

You get your Cha bonus added to your saving throws, but it doesn't say anything about replacing the normal stat for your saves. So a Will save is still based on your Wis, you just get to add your Cha to the result as well, the same way you would get to add an enhancement bonus from a Cloak of Resistance.

Compare that to the Lore Oracle's Lore Keeper revelation:

Quote:


Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks.

That "instead of" turns it into a Cha based check, and would be affected by a Circlet of Persuasion.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Since when is a saving throw considered a "check"?
"A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks and saving throws."

The thing isn't if saving throw is a check. Everything in this game is a check.

The thing is if it is an ABILITY check, or another kind of check, in this particular case, a saving throe check.

The rules for conditions clearly seperayte between:
Skill checks
Ability checks
Attack checks
Damage checks
Saving throws

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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shroudb wrote:
The thing is if it is an ABILITY check, or another kind of check

Why does the circlet of persuasion care about whether it's an ability check or not? The item description certainly doesn't say anything like that.


There core rules also contain many redundancies. Sometimes these help the reader understand, sometimes they confuse things.


shroudb wrote:
i disagree.

You are free to do so, and even more free to apply it in your games (especially if you feel it's overpowered or inappropriate for some reason), but you are wrong, as noted above.

The Circlet does not say that it gives its bonus to "Ability checks" - in which case you'd be entirely correct - but rather "ability-based checks" which is a pretty important distinction.

If a check is based on charisma, it is a charisma-based check. If not, it would not call itself a "charisma-based check" and instead would call itself a "charisma check", as self-evident by the fact that other passages call out ability checks as "<ability name> check" instead of the wording in the Circlet.

If there is no other definition to a set of words, they must be taken for their meaning.

shroudb wrote:

take the conditions per example:

Quote:

Shaken

A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

Sickened

The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

and etc examples.

they clearly state: skill checks AND ability checks. if skill checks were part of the ability check, then they wouldn't need to spell both out

This is a flawed argument, because it relies on the fact that it talks about two different kinds of checks and it uses different wording than the item.

Notice that the item (I quoted it above) says <ability>-based checks. (In this case, "<ability>" is "Charisma".)

The condition notes "ability checks" instead.

The Sickened condition has no way to reference that wording, because it doesn't impact any specific ability-based check, but all checks. Noting that it affects ability checks and skill checks is cleaner linguistically, and far more economic in terms of words and space... and it would make for effects unintended by Sickened.

If it attempted to note ability-based checks, like the Circlet, not only would it be much longer based on the wording, "all Strength-based checks, Dexterity-based checks, Constitution-based checks, Intelligence-based checks, Wisdome-based checks, and Charisma-based checks" but it would also be longer because then it would have to start listing exceptions, (such as "except for Concentration").


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shroudb wrote:


The rules for conditions clearly seperayte between:
Skill checks
Ability checks
Attack checks
Damage checks
Saving throws

... and "checks" covers all of them.

I find it difficult to believe that that a Charisma-based skill check is a skill check, a Charisma-based ability check is an ability check, but a Charisma-based check simpliciter can only refer to an ability check. (A red Camaro is a red car, and a blue Camaro is a blue car, but a Camaro can only be a blue one?)

(Oh, BTW, checks are explicitly d20-based. I don't think damage rolls are checks, and I'm not familiar with any damage checks per se.)


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shroudb wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Since when is a saving throw considered a "check"?
"A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks and saving throws."

The thing isn't if saving throw is a check. Everything in this game is a check.

The thing is if it is an ABILITY check, or another kind of check, in this particular case, a saving throe check.

The rules for conditions clearly seperayte between:
Skill checks
Ability checks
Attack checks
Damage checks
Saving throws

The circlet of persuasion doesn't specify ability checks. It simply says charisma-based checks.


A 4.5k cloak of resistance +3 for paladins would be a little nuts


BigNorseWolf wrote:
A 4.5k cloak of resistance +3 for paladins would be a little nuts

Absolutely. You know that martials aren't allowed to have nice things.


I thought it simply said: charisma checks
Since it says charisma BASED checks, then yeah, it covers the rest too, I agree.

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