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Okay, so the book says that to craft an item, you can have a friend supply the spells (or feats . . . or 'elf-ness'). At first this seems simple enough, but I wasn't sure how that worked with different spell lists.
Okay, so example one, which I totally understand, is where Sorcerer Steve just developed the ability to cast a new spell that his friend, Wizard Willaim has never seen before. Wizard William has scribe scroll (because he has at least one level of wizard) and wants to have a scroll of it. Wizard William creates the scroll, but Steve provides the spell, and everything is fine.
My question is . . . does that work for other spell lists? Can Wizard William use Scribe Scroll to make a scroll of restoration for cleric Clara? What about a wand (if he has craft wand) or a trinket that allows the user to benefit from restoration once a day (if he has wondrous item?)?
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Yes. An alternative way of looking at it is that Cleric Clara wants to create the Restoration Trinket, and Wizard William supplies the item creation feat.
There is some question as to if Wizard William can create it when he does NOT have Cleric Clara handy because she's too busy breaking her vows with Sorceror Steve.
Quoth the PRD: "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Whether or not the trinket is use-activated determines whether or not Cleric Clara is necessary at all.
Well, if she's breaking her vows with sorcerer Steve , she's not going to have any spells to contribute anyway! Seriously though, thanks for clearing that up!
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I just wanna say not to judge Clara too harshly until you've seen what Steve's 18 Charisma is worth. I think most women would lose some spell slots for that...
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I just wanna say not to judge Clara too harshly until you've seen what Steve's 18 Charisma is worth. I think most women would lose some spell slots for that...
It's just that . . . Well Clara is a Cleric of Iomede and Steve's new spell was "Slay sickly orphan boy." I mean . . . 18 charisma or no . . . just, wrong, right?
At least he finally found someone that just might fail the Phantasmal Killer save! :D
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At least he finally found someone that just might fail the Phantasmal Killer save! :D
Sadly, no. Sickly orphan Sissy, because she's human, has two feats. Iron Will and Improved Iron will. You know those sickly orphans, you just can't keep their spirit down. That's why Slay Sickly Orphan requires a fort save.
Well, everyone knows Steve likes to tell all the lades he's their Destined.
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I just wanna say not to judge Clara too harshly until you've seen what Steve's 18 Charisma is worth. I think most women would lose some spell slots for that...Charisma has jack to do with Attractiveness.
I'm fairly certain a Skeleton with an average Charisma of 10 is not attractive in the least.
While I agree with the principle, google heroine chic. Yeah, Skeletons were considered attractive in the 90s, disturbingly.
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Sad part: Steve is just making time with Clara to get close to that shy, adorable little nerd William.
Clara is a strong, independent holy woman who don't need no man.
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This... thread...
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Charisma CAN mean attractiveness (it's in the RAW), but it can also mean imposing, intimidating, or DAMNED SCARY!!!
Charisma is a stat for how well you can interact and influence people. Looks is a part of that, but no where near 50% of what makes up that skill. Hot people can be jerks, Ugly people can be jerks, I'd say the difference between those would be 1, maybe 2 points MAX, if any point difference is needed at all.
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Charisma is a stat for how well you can interact and influence people. Looks is a part of that, but no where near 50% of what makes up that skill. Hot people can be jerks, Ugly people can be jerks, I'd say the difference between those would be 1, maybe 2 points MAX, if any point difference is needed at all.
Jerks can be quite charismatic.
Okay, so the book says that to craft an item, you can have a friend supply the spells (or feats . . . or 'elf-ness'). At first this seems simple enough, but I wasn't sure how that worked with different spell lists.
Okay, so example one, which I totally understand, is where Sorcerer Steve just developed the ability to cast a new spell that his friend, Wizard Willaim has never seen before. Wizard William has scribe scroll (because he has at least one level of wizard) and wants to have a scroll of it. Wizard William creates the scroll, but Steve provides the spell, and everything is fine.
My question is . . . does that work for other spell lists? Can Wizard William use Scribe Scroll to make a scroll of restoration for cleric Clara? What about a wand (if he has craft wand) or a trinket that allows the user to benefit from restoration once a day (if he has wondrous item?)?
By RAW Scribe Scroll is an exception to the rule in that: "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know." so he couldn't scribe a spell from a different list.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
You can scribe a scroll off a different list if you have someone providing it for you. So yes, Wizard William can Scribe the scroll for Cleric Clara as long as she provides the spell for him.
Would the scroll Wizard William and Cleric Clara make be a divine or arcane scroll?
Hmm, I found this under the magic items section for scrolls which seems to muddy the waters.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
This seems to say that if an arcane caster creates a scroll, it is an arcane scroll. In this example, that would be an arcane scroll with a divine spell in it. Since no one would have the spell on their class list, then a UMD check would always be required.
Instead I'm inclined to go with the Magic Item Creation section as being the specific for creating scrolls, overriding the general scroll section of magic items. As such, I would read that the scroll would be Divine as the spell that was cast into it was a divine spell by Cleric Clara.
Yeah, the phrasing had me puzzled as well. I think your call on William and Clary is a reasonable ruling, and one I'd use in my games if this situation popped up.
Hmm, while the Magic Item Creation rules say that you can substitute access to a spell via magic item/other caster you are correct that Scribe Scroll specifically says that you know. I think that is more specific than the magic item creation, as it is the required feat, and no, WW would not be able to scribe the spell for CC.
Yes.
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
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Hmm, I found this under the magic items section for scrolls which seems to muddy the waters.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)This seems to say that if an arcane caster creates a scroll, it is an arcane scroll. In this example, that would be an arcane scroll with a divine spell in it. Since no one would have the spell on their class list, then a UMD check would always be required.
Instead I'm inclined to go with the Magic Item Creation section as being the specific for creating scrolls, overriding the general scroll section of magic items. As such, I would read that the scroll would be Divine as the spell that was cast into it was a divine spell by Cleric Clara.
So, wait, not only can Wizard William not create a scroll for Cleric Clara, he can't create one for Sorcerer Steve either?
Man, that's weak sauce.
Wizard William can only create scrolls of spells he knows. If sorcerer steve wanted to teach wizard william one of his spells he would need to scribe it on a scroll, give william the scroll, and then william could learn the spell off the scroll.
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Wizard William can only create scrolls of spells he knows. If sorcerer steve wanted to teach wizard william one of his spells he would need to scribe it on a scroll, give william the scroll, and then william could learn the spell off the scroll.
And if Sorcerer Steve doesn't have Scribe Scroll (like every other sorcerer in history) then Wizard William is just SOL?
Basically. Sorcerer's just aren't good at sharing their spells.
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As a thought... if you can co-operate to make magic items and the end result is a normally Divine spell in an arcane item, (say a wizard and a cleric work together to make an arcane wand of cure light wounds), while neither of them can use it without UMD, there may be others who can. (such as a bard, who is an arcane caster with Cure light wounds on his list)
Or a witch!
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As a thought... if you can co-operate to make magic items and the end result is a normally Divine spell in an arcane item, (say a wizard and a cleric work together to make an arcane wand of cure light wounds), while neither of them can use it without UMD, there may be others who can. (such as a bard, who is an arcane caster with Cure light wounds on his list)Or a witch!
Or a duck!
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Since we've covered the rules at this point, how do you folks run it in practice? I find it far easier to ignore the arcane/divine distinction for scrolls and just treat the spell as a spell. At first I thought it'd seem weird from a flavor standpoint, but arcane/divine doesn't come into play when deciding whether someone can use a wand, and nobody seems to mind that. So, I figure, what the hell.
Where this gets a bit iffy is if Bob the Cleric wants to scribe summon monster i, so that Tim the Enchanter can transcribe it into his spellbook. I don't really mind this; it's (usually) more expensive overall than finding an NPC wizard with the spell in her spellbook.
UMD for spells not on your spell list for wands/scrolls.
I'm fine with a wizard casting a divine scroll via UMD. Same way a rogue can.
Runner: UMD allows you to emulate having a feature, such as a class, to be able to activate a wand with a successful check.
"Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge."
I am aware of that. My comment was aimed at Blahpers
At first I thought it'd seem weird from a flavor standpoint, but arcane/divine doesn't come into play when deciding whether someone can use a wand, and nobody seems to mind that.Sorry if that was unclear.
Class is literally all that comes into play (UMD aside). What I said was that arcane/divine doesn't come into play. A wizard can use a wand of summon monster III made by a cleric with no problem.
No... the feat says you can scribe a scroll of any spell THAT YOU KNOW. Spell knowledge is not a requirement that can be dispensed for scrolls.
This IS allowed.
Specific trumps general, and in this case the rules in the Magic Item crafting section are the specific ones. No crafting feat mentions collaborative crafting at all in the text - that is a specific corner case mentioned in the overall rules.
Look here.
No... the feat says you can scribe a scroll of any spell THAT YOU KNOW. Spell knowledge is not a requirement that can be dispensed for scrolls.This IS allowed.
Specific trumps general, and in this case the rules in the Magic Item crafting section are the specific ones. No crafting feat mentions collaborative crafting at all in the text - that is a specific corner case mentioned in the overall rules.
Look here.
Scribe Scroll is the only crafting feat that mentions you must know the spell whereas the crafting rules are for all other crafting magic item skills. So the Scribe rule is specific the crafting rules are general.
By SKR's interpretation
of Scribe Scroll?
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Did a quick search and found this:
(...)Actually, my comment was intended as "or the skald can cast the scroll spell without UMD, if it is a spell on the skald's spell list." I wasn't talking about crafting (and page 549 explicitly states that you can't create a spell trigger item unless you know the spell, although "you" might mean "the skald and a cleric, together whom have the Scribe Scroll feat and know the spell to be scribed and therefore can create the item").
and this:
If you don't see the utility of having Scribe Scroll for a class with a small list of Spells Known, remember that the skald can use that feat in tandem with another spellcaster to create useful scrolls—scrolls that other caster can cast, or scrolls the skald can cast with Use Magic Device (or without UMD, if they're on the skald's spell list but not something he'd use so often as to want to actually learn it as a spell known).
and this:
It looks like we're accepting that SLAs (and having a caster level from SLAs) are good enough to allow you to craft magic items, and as long as all the requirements are being met (whether from spellcasting classes, SLAs, spell trigger items, or spell completion items), you can make it work. So a demon without the Scribe Scroll feat could team up with a wizard to create scrolls of the SLAs the demon has, using the normal cooperative crafting rules.
Is Sean the "rules guy" or the "designer guy"?