Will a Hybridization Funnel and a Focusing Flask work in series?


Advice

Scarab Sages

One of my players, who is running an Alchemist, brought up an interesting question: Can he use a Hybridization Funnel and a Focusing Flask in series?

A Hybridization Funnel "is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask." Using the funnel, the Alchemist could mix, for example, one dose of acid and one dose of alchemist's fire into a single flask of fiery acid (1d6 acid damage and 1d6 fire damage). It's found in the Ultimate Equipment book.

A Focusing Flask "allows up to three alchemical splash weapons of the same type to be poured into it". When the flask is thrown, it inflicts double damage (if two doses are poured in) or triple damage (three doses). It's found in the Alchemy Manual.

So, if each of these items works alone, do they work in series? Can an alchemist create two flasks of fiery acid, pour them into a focusing flask, and create a single flask that does 2d6 acid damage and 2d6 fire damage?

In a related question, is a Hybridization Funnel a one-use device? The description of the Focusing Flask is quite clear on the fact that when the Focusing Flask is thrown, it is destroyed. The description of the Hybridization Funnel doesn't specify whether it can be re-used or not.

To give you a little more data, the Hybridization Funnel costs 200gp, and the Focusing Flask costs 700gp. Rules aside (the reason this isn't in the Rules board), does it make sense for one (effectively) damage doubling item to cost 200gp and be used over and over again, and the other damage doubling item to cost 700gp and be destroyed when it's used?


The hybridization funnel might be slightly underpriced as a permanent item, but the focusing flask is insanely overpriced as a one-use item. Letting them combine won't threaten game balance.


From a balance standpoint, I'd allow the sequencing due to gold cost, time limitations and how little relative damage it does. The player has to buy/craft the ingredients, buy/make the funnel and buy/make the flasks. Even creating, this is going to cost a ton over time. I can't think of any RAW that prevents it. Keep in mind the funnel mixes only last 24 hours.

From a rules standpoint though...no. This one is clear:

From Flask:

If multiple types of alchemical items are poured in, all the contents are ruined.

From Funnel:

A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.

The funnel's mix functions as a mix of two types and can't be mixed with other mixes. The sentence is not specific to the funnel.


Oh, and there's nothing to indicate that the funnel is 1 time use.

Scarab Sages

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Whether I allow these two items to work in series or not (so far, probably not), I'm seriously considering swapping their prices. 700gp for the permanent item, and 200gp for the one-use item. Or maybe 750 and 150.


Wish this was raw.

If these worked for my bolt ace Grenadier then Dr Strangelove would have gone from silly to nuts.

Hybrid gives me a 2x multiplier, three hybrids into a focusing flask gives me a 6x Int modifier, combined with explosive missile I can deliver 7x my Int, 6d6 damage, plus my bomb damage, plus the crossbow damage to a single target from 80ft away, targeting touch AC.

At level 5.

Overkill? Yes. Amazing? Also yes. Shame it's illegal >_>

Scarab Sages

Yup, there's definitely a reason I didn't post this in the Rules board. RAW is great for PFS, but I'm playing a home game (Skull & Shackles).

I might still let our alchemist get away with this. He's not a Bolt Ace or a Grenadier, so I don't have to worry about all that extra damage.


I say let him.

Yes, the combination is kinda powerful, but it's one use only, and the setup each time, even with price switching, is fairly expensive. His own purse is gonna keep him from taking it too far.

Sovereign Court

The hybridization funnel actually has a fairly high DC to use, so there's that.


ShroudedInLight wrote:

Wish this was raw.

If these worked for my bolt ace Grenadier then Dr Strangelove would have gone from silly to nuts.

Hybrid gives me a 2x multiplier, three hybrids into a focusing flask gives me a 6x Int modifier, combined with explosive missile I can deliver 7x my Int, 6d6 damage, plus my bomb damage, plus the crossbow damage to a single target from 80ft away, targeting touch AC.

At level 5.

Overkill? Yes. Amazing? Also yes. Shame it's illegal >_>

Wait what?.... Even if you could combine them legally, are you meaning that you would get 2x Int modifier because it is 2x splash weapons in one?

I'm not certain that is the way that works...


Lune wrote:


Wait what?.... Even if you could combine them legally, are you meaning that you would get 2x Int modifier because it is 2x splash weapons in one?

I'm not certain that is the way that works...

Agreed. Can someone comment on the stacking of INT modifiers in this case? I couldn't find any RAW one way or another.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What's illegal about it? What did I miss?

Do you mean that the rules don't work that way, or that PFS doesn't allow a part of the combo?


Well, I meant that the rules do not work that way. But after reading up on it I can see it interpreted either way. So I guess I'm wondering how many groups run with it doubling the Int mod. I don't think that would fly with my DM. I wouldn't run with it that way.

Scarab Sages

In my home game, that would be + (Int modifier) for using a splash weapon, not + (6 x Int modifier) for using six doses of splash weapons. It may have multiple doses of multiple chemicals in it, but to me, one flask is one splash weapon. It's already inflicting 6d6 in two different 'flavors' of damage. It doesn't need cheese on top.

Note: With non-Mythic Artoku's fire (from the Alchemy Manual), it's 9d6 damage.

To keep money as the factor preventing our alchemist from using this every day, I'm now leaning back toward keeping the original prices from the books. Getting ready to fight a Big Bad? Mix up a big blast. Fighting normal bad guys? It might cost more than their treasure is worth.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So how do the rules not work that way?

Scarab Sages

Ravingdork wrote:
So how do the rules not work that way?

I think there are two separate rules questions now.

1) Can a character hybridize a dose of acid and a dose of fire to make a dose of fiery acid, repeat that process two more times, and pour three doses of fiery acid into a focusing flask to make a triple strength flask of fiery acid?

The statement in the funnel's description, about mixing mixtures, may have been intended to prevent hybridizing a flask of holy fire and a flask of unholy acid into a flask of holy fiery unholy acid, not to prevent focusing two doses of fiery acid. That sentence was written before the Alchemy Manual and the focusing flask existed, after all.

The line from the flask's description, about trying to fill a focusing flask with multiple types of alchemical items, may have been intended to prevent this scenario. The hybridization funnel did exist when the Alchemy Manual was written.

2) If a class feature allows a character to add their Intelligence mod to damage when using a splash weapon, does a flask of fiery acid allow the character to add their Intelligence mod twice? Does a triple strength flask of fiery acid allow the character to add their Intelligence mod six times?

I would house rule that one flask is one weapon, no matter how many doses are in it. The rules as written seem ambiguous on this question, according to Lune.

For both questions, I'm not concerned with the Pathfinder Society's restrictions, because I'm running a non-PFS home game. Those who might like to try this trick in a PFS game are welcome to try to figure out whether the Society would allow 1), 2), both, or neither.


KarlBob wrote:


I would house rule that one flask is one weapon, no matter how many doses are in it. The rules as written seem ambiguous on this question, according to Lune.

Agreed, although I don't particularly mind the liberal interpretations as this is both a costly attack in terms of GP and also a lot of discreet packets of damage which would be losing potency to energy resistances.

Scarab Sages

Gevaudan wrote:
KarlBob wrote:


I would house rule that one flask is one weapon, no matter how many doses are in it. The rules as written seem ambiguous on this question, according to Lune.

Agreed, although I don't particularly mind the liberal interpretations as this is both a costly attack in terms of GP and also a lot of discreet packets of damage which would be losing potency to energy resistances.

So, for a triple strength flask of fiery acid thrown by a Grenadier, would you call the total damage {(Int mod + 1d6 - Fire Resist) + (Int mod + 1d6 - Fire Resist) + (Int mod + 1d6 - Fire Resist)} Fire damage + {(Int mod + 1d6 - Acid Resist) + (Int mod + 1d6 - Acid Resist) + (Int mod + 1d6 - Acid Resist)} Acid damage?

I'd be inclined to only add Int mod once, but I'd also be inclined to only subtract Fire and Acid Resistance once each.


sadly its stll only one flask weapon.
Though there are plenty of ways to increase the bonuses as an alchemist, various ways to add differetn versions that should work.

Personally I think it's perfectly fine as long as the 3 instances going int othe focusing flask is the same splash weapon it's fine.

Something I thought of that doesn't seem to have been thought of. This came to mebecause of the costs really..
but

It specifically calls out compressing/reducing the liquid. the flask itself is the normal flask size.
So question is can you just pour everything into it compress and then pour it into a normal bottle? That was my original plan. Considering the cost, I thought that was the implication. cause 700 is way too costy for a one use item, thats like wand levels. Hybridization does similar but costs substantially less; but has a time limit. This costs more, combines more and doesn't have a time limit.
It's that grey area of RAW where it doesn't cover that possibility though so it's better in home games.

At worse this would be great for holy water, because you can specifically pour holy water on the target instead of throwing something.

Scarab Sages

I'd add the Int modifier once at the end, as it's effectively precision damage due to a greater skill with the weapon, not an inherent property granted to the weapon itself.

The triple strength flask of fiery acid should inflict 3d6 acid + 3d6 fire + Int damage (pick type), subtracting the appropriate resistance from each damage type once, for a cost of 790gp each time, with the extra 200gp upfront costs.

Not the most cost effective source of damage out there, compared to say a scroll of fireball (450gp for caster level 6).

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