Can it be done, or have we lost our minds?


Kingmaker


So the gaming group I have been playing with for the past ten years has been dwindling. Mainly because we are getting old and moving for jobs, wife's, etc. we are now down to three... The group wants to game and I offered to run. They want kingmaker. The issue is there will only be 2 PCs. Are we crazy? I need some ideas.

The ideas I have sofar are:
Use high point buy stats.
Let then use gistalt for classes.
Or even have a non-role playing PC myself.

Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks!


If they are experienced enough, they could each run two characters.

You could give them an extra couple of levels to start with, and maybe a mythic tier.

There are many options for this, also including trimming down encounters to account for your smaller group.

Dark Archive

You could just start them with second level characters. That should give them a little boost. They'll gain more experience because there are only 2 players.

You could use a DMPC, but if you do don't let it steal the spotlight from the players. Instead, you should put the spotlight on the other players by letting him buff them. A bard or cleric would be great.


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I'd say muck with the structure a little bit. Here's an idea to start things off:

Give each of your characters a Noble Scion feat of their choice as a bonus feat, as well as a bonus trait linking them to one of the Houses of Brevoy. Also, start them at second level.

The Swordlords have advertised for people to come and pacify the Stolen Lands, and your players' noble houses have sent them for whatever reason, whether to harvest resources, or get rid of an inconvenient second or third child.

Your two players should not travel to the Stolen lands alone. Each should be accompanied by a small retinue, maybe one cohort with a single level in a PC class, then a few (3-5 followers) who are commoners, warriors, and so on. These cohorts and followers should act almost totally in a support capacity -- as squires, foot soldiers, healers, and so forth.

During SL, your players can cooperate (or not) in fighting the Stag Lord, negotiating with kobolds and mites, etc., etc.

Come Rivers Run Red, throw the twist at them -- give them TWO charters for building kingdoms, one for each player!! I wouldn't encourage them to be enemies, but you can certainly encourage them to be rivals in the Stolen Lands.

If you run this in conjunction with Dudemeister's RRR mod, then you might have a truly fun adventure path.

Sovereign Court

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Let them each run two PCs. Friends don't let friends GMPC.


Good point. I'm not suggesting GMPCing, BTW. I'd say keep the retinues in my suggestion strictly in retinue mode.


Two players, two characters a piece, hours of enjoyment.

Priceless.


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You could also try running it as a Gestalt game with an emphasis on both characters filling multiple roles.


pennywit wrote:


Your two players should not travel to the Stolen lands alone. Each should be accompanied by a small retinue, maybe one cohort with a single level in a PC class, then a few (3-5 followers) who are commoners, warriors, and so on. These cohorts and followers should act almost totally in a support capacity -- as squires, foot soldiers, healers, and so forth.

I love this idea pennywit. I might need to explore this more.

If I did this I'd start them off level 2 or gestalt.

Thanks for the help. If anyone has more ideas let me know.
I'm always open to suggestions.


Two PCs a player sounds goo. One could even be a bodyguard who doesn't talk much who follows the noble around and hits stuff.


There are also other threads in the KM board which discuss this very topic.
Not sure where exactly & they were a while back...search & you may find...


You could start with a group of NPCs who are a part of the expedition. But gradually kill them off and don't replace them.

Recommend that they play characters with mounts, animal companions, etc. A druid and a cavalier would probably work well.

Then allow (or even require) leadership at level 3.


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Quote:
Can it be done, or have we lost our minds?

Well the two are not mutually exclusive... =)


Peet wrote:

You could start with a group of NPCs who are a part of the expedition. But gradually kill them off and don't replace them.

Recommend that they play characters with mounts, animal companions, etc. A druid and a cavalier would probably work well.

Then allow (or even require) leadership at level 3.

I was thinking about starting them off level 2 with leadership as a free feat. It will be hard for them, but I think it will be fun. We won't start till December because they are doing NaNoWriMo. So I have lots of time to plan.


Philip Knowsley wrote:
There are also other threads in the KM board which discuss this very topic.

Found one of them

Hope it helps.


Philip Knowsley wrote:
Philip Knowsley wrote:
There are also other threads in the KM board which discuss this very topic.

Found one of them

Hope it helps.

Thanks for the link, I have some ideas that will (hopefully) make this a successful, and fun, game.


I had similar issues - However, not quite so bad as there are four of us. My guys took a normal PC character each and a secondary character with an NPC class. It gave us six characters but three were strong primary characters and three were weaker secondary characters. We have just finished Kingmaker and are going to take the system into our next campaign.

If I only had two players I think I might try primary gestalt characters with single class secondary 'side-kick' characters. That way the Players have a clear primary character who takes the major decisions and a hanger on.

I might actually have a look at building the gestalt characters with one character class and one NPC class to stop them becoming too powerful. Maybe with a 15 point build for the primary gestalt character and a 10 point build for the 'single class' secondary character.


I have done this.

Kingmaker actually lends itself very well to a two-person campaign, since the encounters are so open-ended that a clever party capable of reconnaissance can take on much more than their APL would imply.

Give them access to a rotating cast of NPCs that they can recruit for the party. Kesten Garess and his warriors are a good place to start.

One thing I did was to make the effects of the Leadership feat free for the two "Founder" PCs, and remove the level cap. This means that at around 3rd level they get 1st level cohorts, etc.

In general, though, since Kingmaker is more XP driven than any other AP, once you get up the curve after a swingy 1st-3rd level, the PCs will be ahead of CR, but with fewer actions. Cohorts and animal companions can help, not to mention hirelings.

Heck, I'd go one further and say that Kingmaker with one PC, one who is sufficiently involved in managing their resources, would be the ideal Kingmaker campaign.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:


One thing I did was to make the effects of the Leadership feat free for the two "Founder" PCs, and remove the level cap. This means that at around 3rd level they get 1st level cohorts, etc. /QUOTE]
This is similar to what I am going to do, except I'll allow them to have the 1st lvl cohorts with them from the start, they just won't go up until the appropriate time in their lvl/leadership scores. Might be strong for a free feat up front, but it will balance out. And yeah I will have it only for the "founder" PCs, not if any of them die. They would need to take the feat if they wanted it.


I'd think that with 2 PCs it's going to be as hard for them all the way through
as it will lower down...so no reason not to give new PCs the same deal...
i.e. free leadership.
Just my opinion, but worth considering...after all, if someone dies (even if it's
just through bad luck) they may feel like they're being punished by the removal
of something cool in-game, as well as the fact that things just got harder.

Cool if that's the headspace you want them to be in. i.e. don't squander your
resources, but otherwise - will it achieve what you want it to?


Philip. I guess what I was thinking here was that once they are higher level it won't be as hard for them, because they will be gaining a ton of xp and at a higher level that if they were in a party of 4. I wouldn't make the cohorts disappear, they would still be around either in the trading post or in the kingdom if they were there yet. I would still use them through out, they would be more NPCish at that point.


Cool - wasn't trying to knock your idea, just to play devil's advocate. :)

There's enough ideas on this thread to sink a ship & you can't do all of them,
but all anyone...well, ok, most people...are trying to do is to assist with a
better gaming/playing experience.

You know your players & the type of game you want to run better than anyone
else on the boards, so you gotta run with what works for you.

Happy gaming!


RelicBlackOUT wrote:


The ideas I have sofar are:
Use high point buy stats.
Let then use gistalt for classes.
Or even have a non-role playing PC myself.

As a GM who ran a two-PC game for a time, the biggest problem with only two PCs is that the game becomes too swingy and chancy. An incapacitating condition or a bad crit on one PC almost guarantees a TPK. Just making PCs more buff does not change that. The best solution is to allow players to adventure companions that are almost as strong or just as strong as proper PCs, and that will be run by players in battle.


Pan wrote:
Let them each run two PCs. Friends don't let friends GMPC.

Boo. I wish this flippant attitude about these things was more downplayed, but people are going to hate.

EDIT: I'll be out due to being a player in KM - oh message board side notes with interesting titles, how you vex me! - but I did want to say that, from my experience as a player, it probably depends on how optimized/permissive your players and you get. It could easily be done under the right paradigms, and I think there are all sorts of great ways to hash it out. Gestalting, multiple characters, starting higher level, and mythic are just a few (and yes, depending entirely on your group and GMing style, GMPCs are a valid option, and anyone who says different does so because of their own prejudices - reasonably owned and acquired through experience as some of that hate may be, it is still not the universal truth that people would have you believe).

Regardless, I wish you good gaming!

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