ARG Race Builder: The Gorro [PEACH]


Homebrew and House Rules


The Gorro are based on the MK character of the same name, at least in part (The arms part) they are also inspired by the old Goliath style of characters.

The Gorro
Monstrous Humaniod (3)
Medium Size (0)
Advanced (4)(+2 Physical; +4 Wis, -2 Cha)
Standard Language (0)
Powerful Build (6)
Multi Arms (8)[Total of Four arms]
Jumper (2) [Always considered to have a running start on Acrobatic checks)
Climb (2)[Climb Speed of 20; +8 to Climb]
Static Bonus Feat (2)[Multiweapon Fighting]
*Sky-Prey (-3)
[Members of this race take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, a -2 to AC and Perception checks against flying creatures.]
*Reclusive (-4)
[Race takes a -4 Sense Motive and -2 Diplomacy check penalty when not dealing with other members of their race]
Slow (-1)
Total: 19

* Custom Trait

The Gorro live in the high mountains and the valleys that they surround. Because of their lives in the highlands they have to be touch and sturdy creatures with quick wits and quick reflexes to keep themselves clinging to their mountain homes. Their rivals are all things with wings, living on the high mountains from a young age the Gorro are taught to fear flying beasts as they can be plucked from the rock face with ease. Even older Gorro have to be weary of the winged beasts of the mountain while hunting the mountain goats or gathering the winged beast eggs for food.

Due to their reclusive nature the Gorro do not often interact with others before their first year of adulthood. When a Gorro reach adulthood (25) they are sent to climb down from their mountain homes to travel the world, sometimes to go to other Gorro villages and find a mate, sometimes to explore the world and learn what they can before returning home.

Is this a sound race? Is this too much, etc?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

It looks okay for a non-playable race.


Cyrad wrote:
It looks okay for a non-playable race.

Why do you say it like that? What about a playable race?

1-10 is considered a normal average race (Humans and the like)
10-20 is considered advanced (Aasimar and tieflings fall into this range.)
20-30 Is considered monstrous(Centaurs and Orge are examples)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

The two custom traits you create to bring them just under the monstrous category do not merit -3 and -4 IMO. I'd say -2 and -1 would be more accurate. Slow is worse than either of those two, and it's only -1.

Another thing to consider: Have you just made the ultimate warrior race? Is there any mechanical reason to pick another race for a martial?


All I did was reverse the rewards into penalties.
Sky Sentinel gives bonuses(The same ones that I penalized) against flying creatures and costs 3 RP points.

Reclusive (4 RP) is totally custom and taking serious penalties to interaction checks is not a small thing.

So why is it that a +1 to a skill is worth 1 or 2 RP but a -4 is only worth a -1.

And I could answer your comment with Humans.
Humans are OUTRIGHT better at everything then any other race in the game yet other races get play.


Also Static Bonus Feat (Jotunbrud 3.5) (Monkey Grip 3.5) is a 4 RP
For the bonus Feat thing it becomes (8 RP)
I know it says no Prereqs but I figure that is more to mean other feats as most feats have something.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

While RP makes a good start to look at the overall power level, you cannot rely on it for a critically analyzing a race's design. You have to look at the individual abilities and how they play a role in the race as a whole. Race design, like game design in general, is not an exact science. Besides, many criticize the values given in the ARG's guide.

While aasimars and tieflings are considered advanced races, they're still relatively balanced compared to core races (though I do believe the aasimar's ability scores push them too far). Their spell-like abilities and energy resistances inflate their RP total more than it should because these abilities are very situational and don't give them a significant advantage over other races. Being an outsider is also a double-edged sword because it makes them immune to powerful humanoid-only buffs. Though I do believe the aasimar is too powerful because of their good ability scores, these two races are otherwise in line with core races.

Is this not the case with your race. Your race has multiple arms, which automatically makes it a monstrous race. Multiple arms is a pretty huge boon, largely because monstrous traits are useful at all levels of play whereas nearly all standard racial traits lose their luster after a few levels. While the arms might be okay by themselves, they also receive plenty of other really powerful traits to amplify their strength. They have awesome ability score adjustments, a climb speed, and powerful build (!!!). In addition, they get Multiweapon Fighting for free. In reality, the value of this is much higher than the listed RP cost because every player with this race will want this feat. I see that you tried to balance the race by giving them penalties, but none of these will meaningfully impact how the race plays, and eventually the player can overcome or avoid them while still reaping the massive benefits of the race.

Finally, the race's lore feels really boring and uninspired. It speaks nothing about their culture and flavor, which I feel like should be a major reason someone chooses a race. The description doesn't even say what they look like. This makes the race come off as just a overly twinked out race designed to do nothing more than let someone play a broken fighting character.

If a player handed me this, I wouldn't allow them to play this race. This is coming from a guy who had the privilege of playing a homebrewed 4-armed character.


Kasatha (20 RP)
Look at their type its humaniod not Monstrous

But I do agree on the description and such, it was very late and I was very tired by the time I posted the idea. It is simply just a rough draft. I very much see them as Four Armed Goliaths.

Humaniod (0)
Medium (0)
Slow Speed (-1 RP)
Standard (0 RP)[+2 Str, +2 Con,-2 Cha]
Xenophobic (0 RP)[Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Terran]
Advanced Wisdom (4 RP)[+2 Wis]
Climb (2) [Climb Speed 20; +8 Climb]
Terrain Stride (1 RP) [Mountain]
Powerful Build (6 RP)
Multiarmed (8 RP)
total Rp: 20

Another problem is you need to homebrew some weaknesses as the guide has very few (Pretty much all about being weak to light or energy)


Drop Climb. Just give them a racial bonus to the climb skill. No reason for them to be able to climb around on anything like spiders or lizards.

I'd also seriously consider dropping Powerful Build. That's an ability that is best used for Small creatures. To give it to a Medium or Large creature is essentially handing out a racial damage boost. Weapon size increases can get pretty powerful.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Kasatha is not a very well designed race that was obviously made as an expy of the thri-kreen race from Dark Sun. They really should have been considered monstrous humanoids. But that's not what I meant when I said your race was "monstrous." I meant it's more powerful than an advanced race because it has monstrous racial traits.

Weakness traits shouldn't be used as a clutch to balance extremely powerful traits, especially when those weaknesses aren't meaningful and aren't valued properly. -3 RP due to taking minor penalties against a type of creature that the party will rarely face until high levels? -4 RP for diplomacy/sense motive penalties when no one taking this race will care about those skills?

A standard ability array should be +2 to one physical stat, +2 to one mental stat, and -2 to one mental or physical stat. You have a +2 to two physical stats.

You said humans are the most powerful race. Yet shouldn't that mean no race should be more powerful than them?


Half-Giant
Well for a racial bonus that big (+8) it would cost a heck of a lot more then 2 points. Also Climb does not grant them the non-magical spiderwalk ability. This just lets them climb normally climbable surfaces.

As for Powerful Build. It lets you buy and use weapons of the large type without penalty. Larger damage dice does not constitute a huge increase in power overall just by 1 step.


Cyrad wrote:

Kasatha is not a very well designed race that was obviously made as an expy of the thri-kreen race from Dark Sun. They really should have been considered monstrous humanoids. But that's not what I meant when I said your race was "monstrous." I meant it's more powerful than an advanced race because it has monstrous racial traits.

Weakness traits shouldn't be used as a clutch to balance extremely powerful traits, especially when those weaknesses aren't meaningful and aren't valued properly. -3 RP due to taking minor penalties against a type of creature that the party will rarely face until high levels? -4 RP for diplomacy/sense motive penalties when no one taking this race will care about those skills?

A standard ability array should be +2 to one physical stat, +2 to one mental stat, and -2 to one mental or physical stat. You have a +2 to two physical stats.

You said humans are the most powerful race. Yet shouldn't that mean no race should be more powerful than them?

So your saying you only take races if they fit your class design build. Not everyone does that ya know?

So your saying if it had a -4 to every stat -10 to attack and damage it still too strong because " he has four arms"

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Nerdtothe3rd wrote:
As for Powerful Build. It lets you buy and use weapons of the large type without penalty. Larger damage dice does not constitute a huge increase in power overall just by 1 step.

That is a significant power boost, especially when the race can multiweapon fight and powerful build stacks with enlarge person. Being able to wield one-handed weapons as light weapons and two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons is a pretty huge boon for a TWF fighter, especially one with four arms.


Cyrad wrote:
Nerdtothe3rd wrote:
As for Powerful Build. It lets you buy and use weapons of the large type without penalty. Larger damage dice does not constitute a huge increase in power overall just by 1 step.
That is a significant power boost, especially when the race can multiweapon fight and powerful build stacks with enlarge person. Being able to wield one-handed weapons as light weapons and two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons is a pretty huge boon for a TWF fighter, especially one with four arms.

Err

Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefts of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

That is from the Half-Giant obviously but that does not mean he can one hand a Greatsword, it means he can hold a Large Longsword in one hand, a Large Greatsword is still two handed for him.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Taking a bonus and turning it into a penalty is not just reversing the RP cost. One could easily add penalties that are inconsequential.

-2 to Diplomacy doesn't matter when you aren't the party face, you'll never be rolling Diplomacy anyway. +2 Diplomacy matters more because it gives you something to build around (and even then, it's cheap).

Nerdtothe3rd wrote:

So your saying you only take races if they fit your class design build. Not everyone does that ya know?

So your saying if it had a -4 to every stat -10 to attack and damage it still too strong because " he has four arms"

No one is saying that. We're saying that you're stacking a lot of physical prowess (far beyond what current races have), and not counteracting it with meaningful penalties. Powerful Build alone is amazing. Multiple arms alone are amazing. A bonus feat alone is amazing. +2/+4/-2 stats alone are amazing. And these are all amazing in the same direction.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Nerdtothe3rd wrote:
So your saying if it had a -4 to every stat -10 to attack and damage it still too strong because " he has four arms"

No. That's a meaningful weakness, because it directly relates to fighting. Like Petty Alchemy says, gaining two monstrous combat abilities in exchange for some moderate social disabilities is not a trade off when the race is obviously designed to make the perfect warrior-type character.

Nerdtothe3rd wrote:
That is from the Half-Giant obviously but that does not mean he can one hand a Greatsword, it means he can hold a Large Longsword in one hand, a Large Greatsword is still two handed for him.

I mean the class can wield Large light weapons, which (in terms of damage) is basically like wielding a one-handed weapon as a light weapon. In other words, getting a damage dice boost is pretty amazing for multiweapon fighter because that archetype specifically restricts their choice of off-hand weapons.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Also, do the math for the damage increase with Powerful Build. Assuming they use a longsword and three shortswords with no bonus damage from ability modifiers, a member of this race will deal an average extra 5.5 damage, which is more than a 25% increase to an already good amount of damage. That's a significant increase in damage.

NORMAL
1d8+3*1d6 = 4.5+3.5*3 = 15

POWERFUL BUILD
2d6+3*1d8 = 2*3.5+3*4.5 = 20.5


An optimizer would look at this race and take Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword.

They would then be able to wield a Huge sized bastard sword (at a -2 penalty) because of powerful build. Because they are humanoid they are eligible for Enlarge person. Now their bastard swords are Gargantuan.

That's at first level.

From there they could take multiweapon fighting and further boost their already signifigant damage by adding a couple Large sized short swords.

Or they could wield a sheild and go with Vital Stike (a gargantuan bastard sword is a vital strike build's dream come true). They'd stll have a hand left over for this one.

Or (and this is my favorite) they could wield a Huge polearm in the other two hands and take Combat Reflexes. Combine with Vital Strike and you have the ultimate Come And Get Me barbarian build.

I'm not even getting into deep optimization. Those are the obvious choices. They aren't complicated and are straight out if the core rules. They are significantly more powerful than a Human character of similar builds.

Is that what you want these guys to be able to do?

Sovereign Court

I find it funny that you chose Monstrous Humanoid since Gorro is very proud of his half-dragon heritage.

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