joeyfixit |
This is for PFS.
Str 5
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 20
Trait: Born Rider (+1 Ride and Handle Animal)
The concept is that this is a particularly lazy individual who abandoned the toil and drudgery of his parents' gem mine for a life of adventure. He rides on a llama, usually as far from the battle as possible.
First level spells will be Silent Image and Ventriloquism. First level feat will be Effortless trickery. His specialty will be illusory walls or creating the illusion of a giant evil looking wizard or monster (depending on the enemy) and using Ventriloquism to give him a voice to intimidate enemies.
As a Sorcerer, this guy gets a familiar (Arcane Bloodline), which would be either a rabbit (Improved Init) or a Skunk (+2 Fort, Spray attack).
As a Bard, he gets better armor, better skills, knowledge, performance, blah, blah, blah.
Sorcerer has a better spell selection/list (eventually). I'm not interested in Color Spray (as a known spell; I'd use a scroll or wand), but a wand of Mage Armor would be handy. Course, a chain shirt +1 is even better...
As a Sorcerer, I'd be tempted to make Spell Focus: Illusion his first level feat so as to get Threatening Spell as a third level spell and get some use out of the 3rd level bloodline power. On the other hand, taking effortless trickery at first level means getting a lot more out of a silent image, since I can use not only Ventriloquism but also Ghost Sounds to supplement the illusion. And a Still Spell'd Silent Image is even more convincing and gets a bump in DC.
...'course, I also could use the truckload of skill points the bard gets me for staying on the llama with Ride and Handle Animal...
Argh! This is a really tough call. I should also mention that I've never played a pure Sorcerer before. The one time I dipped was with a drow rogue going for Arcane Trickster in a home brew who got creamed immediately after taking a level in Sorcerer.
Captain Zoom |
Personally, I'd definitely go Sorceror if I wanted to be a hard-core illusionist.
If I wanted to do illusions and wasn't sure how accommodating my GM might be, and didn't want to use conventional spells, then I may consider Bard as it offers something else to do with my time (i.e. perform and be a skill monkey). You can also design a bard to fight (Archaeologist or Dervish), so again, you have other stuff to do if your GM nerfs your illusions.
Also, if your GM is the type to require Knowledge checks to see if you know how to do a believable illusion of a Gnoll or a T-Rex or a brick wall, then Bard has the benefit of having the skills and the skill points to pull it off.
You really, really, really, need to find out how your GM is going to handle illusions.
joeyfixit |
Personally, I'd definitely go Sorceror if I wanted to be a hard-core illusionist.
If I wanted to do illusions and wasn't sure how accommodating my GM might be, and didn't want to use conventional spells, then I may consider Bard as it offers something else to do with my time (i.e. perform and be a skill monkey). You can also design a bard to fight (Archaeologist or Dervish), so again, you have other stuff to do if your GM nerfs your illusions.
Also, if your GM is the type to require Knowledge checks to see if you know how to do a believable illusion of a Gnoll or a T-Rex or a brick wall, then Bard has the benefit of having the skills and the skill points to pull it off.
You really, really, really, need to find out how your GM is going to handle illusions.
It's for PFS, so the GM is going to be amorphous. Sometimes I have to fill in as GM at the last minute.
I'm also leaning Sorcerer pretty hard. I played a non-melee high Charisma bard once upon a long time ago and I found combat to be really repetitive after a few encounters. With the strength as low as it is for this character, I'd have to go for Slashing Grace with a whip to be effective in melee, which is a lot of feats away from the illusion-build I want to go for (and a non-human Bard is feat-starved).
One of the things that gives me pause is that the Sorcerer won't really get much of a chance to shine at the higher (11+) levels anyway.There's one spell level difference between the two classes at level 11, although the Sorcerer will have a significant edge with things like metamagic to boost DCs.
Also, Bardic Knowledge, as you pointed out.
Hayato Ken |
Gnome illusionists really rock because of effortless trickery!
Go with the sorcerer, that´s far better than the bard.
Bard will be fighting or buffing eventually.
Sorcerer can always rely on other spells.
ATM, for PFS, i think it´s unfortunate that there is no possibility to influence constructs with illusions. You can mind affect undead though and i recommend either the feat or rod at some point.
You could also take a level of sorcerer, maybe crossblooded undead/something that fits your shoe, then go arcanist for the rest. You loose one level of spells of course, but totally worth it for the enhanced stuff you can do. With bloodline development you can further enhance the bloodline.
One level of oracle of heavens could be a good with too with awesome display. A bit cheesy maybe, but there are enough other spells than color spray that profit from this.
Charon's Little Helper |
Actually - while most illusions don't work on contructs - the image spells do. (silent image/minor image etc) Same thing with undead actually, with a few exceptions.
From contruct - "•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
From undead - "•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
However - the image spells aren't on those lists as they're figments.
Basically - while many illusion spells are patterns & phantasms (ex. color spray is a pattern) those are the illusions that mess with your opponents' minds. The image spells are simply the magical equivelent of smoke and mirrors, and are actually visible/audible (of course - silent image isn't audible :P).
I actually run a PFS gnome sorceror with similar stats, still at low level. While he uses color spray quite effectively, his favorite spell is silent image. Be careful how creative you get - as there is some table variation on what GMs will let you do with it.
Therefore, my favorite silent image trick which follows the KISS rule is just to put everyone in cages/boxes. If they have no ranged attacks, a cage will do, and the group will plink away at them with ranged attacks. If they have ranged attacks, simply put all but one foe in a box so that your group can cut them apart piecemeal.
Sure - they get a will save every turn (their turn - not on your turn - they have to spend time interacting with it) - but illusion magic is all about jacking up the DC. My level 3 sorceror's DC for illusions is 19.
(Of note - with my bard (DCs much lower - he's mainly tank/buff) I had a lot of success making a chasm appear to be a solid floor with treasure/gems scattered about. It was hilarious.)
Edit: I looked through the SRD, it doesn't look like anything is immune to figments. Though of course, something that's blind would inherently be immune to silent image etc.
joeyfixit |
Actually - while most illusions don't work on contructs - the image spells do. (silent image/minor image etc) Same thing with undead actually, with a few exceptions.
From contruct - "•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
From undead - "•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
However - the image spells aren't on those lists as they're figments.
Basically - while many illusion spells are patterns & phantasms (ex. color spray is a pattern) those are the illusions that mess with your opponents' minds. The image spells are simply the magical equivelent of smoke and mirrors, and are actually visible/audible (of course - silent image isn't audible :P).
I actually run a PFS gnome sorceror with similar stats, still at low level. While he uses color spray quite effectively, his favorite spell is silent image. Be careful how creative you get - as there is some table variation on what GMs will let you do with it.
Therefore, my favorite silent image trick which follows the KISS rule is just to put everyone in cages/boxes. If they have no ranged attacks, a cage will do, and the group will plink away at them with ranged attacks. If they have ranged attacks, simply put all but one foe in a box so that your group can cut them apart piecemeal.
Sure - they get a will save every turn (their turn - not on your turn - they have to spend time interacting with it) - but illusion magic is all about jacking up the DC. My level 3 sorceror's DC for illusions is 19.
(Of note - with my bard (DCs much lower - he's mainly tank/buff) I had a lot of success making a chasm appear to be a solid floor with treasure/gems scattered about. It was hilarious.)
Edit: I looked through the SRD, it doesn't look like anything is immune to figments. Though of course, something that's blind would inherently be immune to silent image etc.
Where is it written that a mook gets a save every round they interact with a silent image? My impression was that if you flunk your will save vs/ illusion, you don't get another chance without help. Like, somebody pointing out that it's illusion.
Charon's Little Helper |
Where is it written that a mook gets a save every round they interact with a silent image? My impression was that if you flunk your will save vs/ illusion, you don't get another chance without help. Like, somebody pointing out that it's illusion.
Each round they interact with an illusion they get a saving throw. If someone points out that it's an illusion then they get +4 to their subsequent saving throws. If someone proves that it's an illusion, they don't have to make a saving throw at all.
But just think - my cage/box trick is nearly an AOE hold person. In addition, be picky when someone claims someing 'proves' that it's an illusion. With all the magic flying around, proving it doesn't follow physics doesn't prove that it's an illusion.
I made an illusionist, though I went with wizard instead, twice. That 8th level school power is awesome.
I do really like the wizard (illusionist) class abilities, but illusion is really about getting a high DC. And gnomes have +2 Charisma and an additional +1 DC for illusion spells. Therefore, while a wizard illusionist has better class abilities, the gnome sorceror focused on illusions always has a DC 1 point higher. *shrug*
Paulicus |
I disagree. It's nice to have high DCs, but a properly executed illusion doesn't allow a save. As an aside, wizards also have an arcane discovery that lets them use a CL check in place of their illusion DCs if they roll higher.
As for the cage idea, most intelligent enemies would try to break out of the cage you put them in, even if they believe it, and as soon as they touch it and pass right through they're likely to just walk out. It can buy you some time, but it's not an encounter-ending tactic. If you're concentrating on it I suppose you can make it react appropriately, but it still won't likely hold them for more than a round or two.
I've most often used figments to create cover and walls to control movements (a large canopy once saved us from a dozen harpy archers). Or, with my gnome wizard (Effortless Trickery is awesome) to create decoy casters to attract enemy attacks/AoOs.
Try combining quickened silent image with Sirocco to keep your enemies in long enough for exhaustion to set in! >=D
Charon's Little Helper |
As for the cage idea, most intelligent enemies would try to break out of the cage you put them in, even if they believe it, and as soon as they touch it and pass right through they're likely to just walk out.
To walk out - they'd have to believe that it's not real (by passing their will save).
And sure they'll touch it - that'd be interacting - which is what gives them their save every round.
And you can do things to make the idea of touching it less pleasant. With the upper level image spells you can do things like make it appear to be a crackling wall of flame. Who's gonna want to interact with that? And even silent image can appear to covered in spikes which look to be gleaming with poison.
Kieviel |
Hey Charon's Little Helper
I played a gnome illusionist to 12th or 13th level and had an absolute blast... until he was eaten :-(
Anyway, I used that cage tactic to great effect. I also found that mixing spells with illusions that mimic those spells can help a lot. I supplemented my illusions with walls, pit spells and summons. I found I could then use illusions of those spells to better effect as the enemies would just assume that they were dealing with the real thing.
And don't forget that the more creative you are with illusions the more effective they are. Got a flyer that the party can't get too? Use an illusion of a flaming net that slowly lowers to force it to the ground :-)
Good luck and have fun!
Charon's Little Helper |
Image spells are great. And I also maxxed out bluff with my gnome. I haven't bluff with illusions yet (my eventual plan) but I have suckered baddies through a doorway into all the melees with readied actions.
The only bad thing about being TOO creative is that mine is PFS, and GMs vary greatly on how much leeway they give you on image spells.
Charon's Little Helper |
Paulicus wrote:It's nice to have high DCs, but a properly executed illusion doesn't allow a save.Can you expand on this?
I'm assuming that he means using the illusion in such a way that it's useful without your opponents getting a chance to interact with it. For example - that illusion over the chasm I mentioned as they only interacted with it when they fell through. (It was hilarious - the GM didn't give him a check, and he rolled near max falling damage, killing the enemy rogue outright.) I've had GMs make you roll a bluff check for such things to trick them depending upon circumstances. (another advantage of sorcerers for illusion magic - if they spend the skill points their bluff puts most bards' skill to shame)
joeyfixit |
joeyfixit wrote:I'm assuming that he means using the illusion in such a way that it's useful without your opponents getting a chance to interact with it. For example - that illusion over the chasm I mentioned as they only interacted with it when they fell through. (It was hilarious - the GM didn't give him a check, and he rolled near max falling damage, killing the enemy rogue outright.) I've had GMs make you roll a bluff check for such things to trick them depending upon circumstances. (another advantage of sorcerers for illusion magic - if they spend the skill points their bluff puts most bards' skill to shame)Paulicus wrote:It's nice to have high DCs, but a properly executed illusion doesn't allow a save.Can you expand on this?
I guess that all depends on your definition of "interact with". Has this been nailed down in an FAQ?
joeyfixit |
Not mentioned yet but with the strength that character has encumbrance will be an issue with just about any armour.
Not mage armor. A small-sized armored kilt shouldn't be too much trouble.
Also, character will have a llama to carry his stuff. Not caring too much about encumbrance most of the time.
Charon's Little Helper |
Not mage armor. A small-sized armored kilt shouldn't be too much trouble.
Of note - armored kilts aren't allowed in PFS. (kinda broken for heavy armor characters) For your purposes though, a haramaki or silken ceremonial armor will do the same thing. (haramaki will save you 17gp, ceremonial armor cost 10gp more - and both are considerably lighter)
Captain Zoom |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paulicus wrote:It's nice to have high DCs, but a properly executed illusion doesn't allow a save.Can you expand on this?
I can also expand on this. He's wrong - sort of. It really depends on the GM and how he interprets interacting with an illusion.
Take the example of an illusion over a chasm. Some GMs feel that interacting means seeing the illusion. Nothing in the rules say you have to grope an illusion to interact with it. If the illusion features illusory sounds, many consider you to be interacting with the illusion when you hear the sounds. I tend toward this interpretation if for no other reason than players feel sorely put upon when you hit them with death traps that (1) you can't perceive and (2) you can't save against, and (3) you can't avoid because the GM isn't giving you clues (like the pile of skeletons in front of the old sealed up door).
I do think circumstance bonuses are appropriate. For example, if you have a simple illusion that shows that the tunnel ends (when it in fact does not), I'd give the illusionist a circumstance bonus on his DC. If you wanted to make an illusion of some PC's wife happily welcoming him home after an adventure, I'd probably give the PC a circumstance bonus on his saving throw as he's intimately familiar with his wife. I'd also apply distance modifiers to certain saving throws, like -1 for every 10' to save versus a visual illusion. To avoid the PC automatically saving, I'd only give the PC one save at the most opportune time, unless the PC took the time to carefully study the illusion (which gets a save - sort of like reactive perception versus active perception). In the example of the illusion covering a chasm, I'd give a save just short of walking onto the illusion. If you give the PCs saving throws over and over, you degrade the illusion because they'll make the save eventually. But on the other hand, not giving them any save is going to PO them.
Then there are some situations where I wouldn't require a save. For example, a Silent Image of a wall. Even if the PC failed his or her save, I'd still give it to them without any save if they leaned up against the wall and fell through to the other side.
The trick is to balance things so the illusions are useful. Many GMs go to one extreme or the other, so you end up with games where illusions are the most powerful magic imaginable and other games where illusions are so worthless nobody will use them. The hallmark of the former is a GM who doesn't let PCs discover illusions until they've been victimized by them (i.e. no save for you, roll up a new character); in these games you'll have to explain to me why everyone doesn't walk around with 10' poles poking everything. The hallmark of the latter tends to be a GM who gives too many repeated saves versus an illusion, or doesn't reward good planning with circumstance bonuses; in these games no one uses illusions, except straightforward ones like colorspray. It's a very fine line and difficult to do and I think most GMs struggle with illusions to some extent. I certainly do. Just remember, you want the game to be fun. No-save auto-kill illusions are not going to make things fun for most players (maybe masochist players will enjoy it?) and on the other end of the scale, making it too easy for NPCs to detect illusions (usually by allowing re-roll after re-roll, or even simply ruling that an illusion is wholly ineffective for some reason) isn't fun for a player who uses illusions. So strike a balance and follow the rule of keeping the game fun for everyone and you should be ok.
And you'll get opinions all over the place on illusions. Mine is my own, and there are others who will espouse very different opinions on how to handle illusions, and they'll fight you to the death on the issue.
Which brings us back to your GM... know his style or face possible disappointment. In PFS play, its very risky. The GMs range from very inexperienced to very experienced, and they hold very different views on how to handle illusions. If you go the Sorceror route, I'd avoid being the one-trick pony (i.e. just illusions) and take a smattering of other useful spells in case you're in a game run by a GM who isn't going to let your illusions work. Create Pit spells, damage spells, etc., are fall backs for when the illusions don't work.
Personally, I'd be too scared to run a full-on illusion based character in PFS. I'd probably only run one in a home game or AP after talking it over with the GM to make sure I can live with their version of "interaction".
In any case, as Mistwalker said to Zachery and Zozo: "Sometimes the magic doesn't always work."
strayshift |
Naturally mage armour doesn't encumber but a bard has to use a wand to access that (and shield) and so it requires a routine UMD check (and development of that skill as well as Ride for the Llama). Also the benefit to AC from the Armoured Kilt etc is only +1 unless enchanted and so I wouldn't rely on that too much in combat. The point I was making was that to get yourself decent protection at low level requires decent armour (you mention a +1 chain shirt) and that will give you encumbrance problems. Mage armour is a good solution but it is a consumable resource and leaves you vulnerable to dispel magic. Just saying.
In terms of Illusion Magic I'd go Sorcerer and the order of feats I would use is:
1. Effortless Trickery;
3. Spell Focus;
5. Threatening Illusion;
7. Greater Spell Focus;
9. Extend Spell;
11. Heighten Spell (or still/silent spell);
Charon's Little Helper |
If you wanted to make an illusion of some PC's wife happily welcoming him home after an adventure, I'd probably give the PC a circumstance bonus on his saving throw as he's intimately familiar with his wife.
See - that sort of thing and others you previously mentioned just scream bluff check to me. I'd give the PCs a sense motive - but no save until they touch the illusion. (similar to disguise self) I've never had anyone else argue that seeing/hearing counts as interacting for a save without either spending time specifically examining it (standard action - ruling from back in 3.5) or passing a sense motive check 1st.
Which brings us back to your GM... know his style or face possible disappointment. In PFS play, its very risky.
Hence my mention of the cage trick. The more creative stuff is risky - but I've never had any not allow my cage/box trick. (roll eyes - yes - but still allow - no matter how broad your interaction rules, it assumes they get a save every round anyway)
Edit: clarification
Keep Calm and Carrion |
The level 8 Invisibility Field power of illusion school wizards is astonishingly powerful--greater invisibility as a swift action, something that would normally require an 8th level spell slot, multiple times a day. On top of all the other defensive applications of that power, it’s the best way to use figments around other casters: one swift action and no one can use spellcraft to tell the spell you’re casting is an illusion (figment) instead of a conjuration (summoning). (Well, unless they have see invisibility up...don’t make abjuration one of your banned schools, because you’re going to want access to nondetection and mind blank and the like.)
The Extended Illusions school power that makes your illusions stick around after you stop concentrating is pretty sweet too. I mean, effortless trickery has its good points, but after the first few levels you’re going to want your swift actions for other things. And you straight-up can’t concentrate on a spell while casting a new one, effortless trickery or no...a lot of players don’t seem to realize that. If a sorceror casts featherfall or liberating command or emergency force sphere between turns to save someone’s kiester, pop goes the figment she was concentrating on, whereas the illusion wizard’s will stay in play.
But yeah, the most important thing when using figments is to know your GM. Illusions that entertain her are much more likely to succeed than ones that irritate her.
Charon's Little Helper |
I mean, effortless trickery has its good points, but after the first few levels you’re going to want your swift actions for other things. And you straight-up can’t concentrate on a spell while casting a new one, effortless trickery or no...a lot of players don’t seem to realize that.
I've got to disagree
Prerequisite: Gnome.Benefit: You can maintain concentration on one spell of the illusion school as a swift action. This has no effect on spells of other schools or on illusion spells with durations that don’t depend on your active concentration. While you may only maintain one spell as a swift action, you may take your move and standard actions to maintain other spells normally, if you wish.
Normal: Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
While it could be written better - note the bolded portion. If you couldn't cast other spells while concentrating - how in the world can you maintain other spells? You have to be able to cast them to be able to maintain them.
Keep Calm and Carrion |
If you couldn't cast other spells while concentrating - how in the world can you maintain other spells? You have to be able to cast them to be able to maintain them.
From the Duration section of the Magic rules:
Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.
You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.
As for what that language means in effortless trickery, consider a spell such as flaming sphere. You could cast flaming sphere, then cast silent image, and with effortless trickery you could maintain the figment with a swift action while using standard or move actions to direct the flaming sphere.
However, if you cast silent image THEN flaming sphere, pop goes the silent image.
joeyfixit |
. I mean, effortless trickery has its good points, but after the first few levels you’re going to want your swift actions for other things. And you straight-up can’t concentrate on a spell while casting a new one, effortless trickery or no...a lot of players don’t seem to realize that.
Sorry, where does it say that?
You can maintain concentration on one spell of the illusion school as a swift action. This has no effect on spells of other schools or on illusion spells with durations that don’t depend on your active concentration. While you may only maintain one spell as a swift action, you may take your move and standard actions to maintain other spells normally, if you wish.
Emphasis mine. Seems like the feat explicitly has you maintaining two spells at once.
Concentration Checks and Casting Spells
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you're casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell. When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. Clerics, druids, and rangers add their Wisdom modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers add their Charisma modifier. Finally, wizards add their Intelligence modifier. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC (see Table: Concentration Check DCs). If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.
Concentrating to Maintain a Spell: Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends.
I don't see anything about not being able to cast new spells while using concentration.
EDIT: ninja'd by Charon. (I'm at work)
Charon's Little Helper |
Charon's Little Helper wrote:If you couldn't cast other spells while concentrating - how in the world can you maintain other spells? You have to be able to cast them to be able to maintain them.From the Duration section of the Magic rules:
Quote:Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.
You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.
As for what that language means in effortless trickery, consider a spell such as flaming sphere. You could cast flaming sphere, then cast silent image, and with effortless trickery you could maintain the figment with a swift action while using standard or move actions to direct the flaming sphere.
However, if you cast silent image THEN flaming sphere, pop goes the silent image.
If we're going into word parsing - there's an argument both ways. One could argue that "maintaining concentration" isn't actually "concentrating" as "concentrating" is a standard action. Therefore, when using effortless trickery, you aren't technically "concentrating" and therefore the "You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one" doesn't apply.
From a RAW perspective there is an argument both ways. From a RAI perspective it seems pretty obvious that they intend you to be able to cast another spell while using effortless trickery.
joeyfixit |
Charon's Little Helper wrote:If you couldn't cast other spells while concentrating - how in the world can you maintain other spells? You have to be able to cast them to be able to maintain them.From the Duration section of the Magic rules:
Quote:Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.
You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.
As for what that language means in effortless trickery, consider a spell such as flaming sphere. You could cast flaming sphere, then cast silent image, and with effortless trickery you could maintain the figment with a swift action while using standard or move actions to direct the flaming sphere.
However, if you cast silent image THEN flaming sphere, pop goes the silent image.
Flaming sphere lasts one round per level. You don't need to maintain it, you direct it.
While I tip my cap to your pointing out the duration section of magic, I think the specific of effortless trickery trumps the general of concentration rules. Also, the basic description of the feat says
"Your natural knack for illusion allows you to maintain at least one illusion spell with little effort." (emphasis mine)
which implies the possibility of multiple illusion spells being maintained. Which in turn, to build on Charon's point, implies that you can cast new spells.
If what you said was true, that the general duration rule trumps the specificity of the feat, the feat would have little use to full casters.
Keep Calm and Carrion |
If what you said was true, that the general duration rule trumps the specificity of the feat, the feat would have little use to full casters.
That's correct. The feat has less use to full casters than many people believe.
All you folks are finding more power in the feat than the feat says it gives. It does not say you can concentrate on a spell while casting a new one. It says you can maintain concentration as a swift action rather than as a standard action.
There may someday be a feat or feature or spell that lets you concentrate on a spell while you cast another spell, and on that day, effortless trickery will become more useful. But as of right now, its big advantage is that you can do useful non-spellcasting things while maintaining an illusion--like withdrawing from combat, full attacking, aiding another, making intimidation checks, using supernatural abilities, and so on.
shroudb |
sorcerer will have the highest DCs
but a bard is also quite good. I had an npc prankster bard (gnome archetype) and it was a blast.
You bring mayhem in the battlefield with threatening illusion, illusions in general charging in and out of the battle (even if they need to attack it once, it is still 1 less attack for your party)
you then bring more mayhem with mock, since you will be in the back either way
and hideous laughter with scaling sv throw? that's just epic.
invisibility +steal is also awesome (spell component pouches, arcane bond items, ammunition or thrown weapons, etc) The fun part is that an opponent who doesn't notice WILL lose his action when he tries to reach for his arrows only to find sticks, or for his components only to find... not appropriate^^
with threatening and effortless, i found out that i could maintain my spell slots quite efficiently, so barding performances and even some ranged attacks, or bardic abilities would fill up my rounds.
"Illusions done right need no saving throw" in pathfinder is even more easier. They need to interact with the illusion to disbelief. And p.e. making an illusion of a Giant raising a boulder and aiming for the baddies, will usually cause the baddies to either take cover, or charge the giant. till they reach/interact/spend a standard action just looking is all won time for you.
just take notice that:
" A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."
so making a cage with just silent image will auto-break without any saving throw the first second he tries to touch it, since it has no tactile sense. Even if there is tactile sense, if he passes his hand through it (it has no physical substance) then he autosucceeds his sv throw
Charon's Little Helper |
so making a cage with just silent image will auto-break without any saving throw the first second he tries to touch it, since it has no tactile sense. Even if there is tactile sense, if he passes his hand through it (it has no physical substance) then he autosucceeds his sv throw
Yes - because everything in Pathfinder makes sense when in comes to physics... oh wait...
Charon's Little Helper |
To everyone ruling extremely broad rulings for interacting/proof -
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Emphasis mine.
Some people logic that seeing/hearing an illusion counts as interacting with it. If that were so - why would studying it carefully even be an option? Answer - it wouldn't be. Therefore - interacting is acting upon it physically.(touching/throwing something at it etc)
As interacting is acting upon the illusion physically and is what lets you get a save at all - would interacting with an illusion then inherently disprove an illusion and require no saving throw? Answer - no it wouldn't as that would make the whole wording of interacting pointless.
Yay logic.
shroudb |
To everyone ruling extremely broad rulings for interacting/proof -
illusion rules wrote:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Emphasis mine.
Some people logic that seeing/hearing an illusion counts as interacting with it. If that were so - why would studying it carefully even be an option? Answer - it wouldn't be. Therefore - interacting is acting upon it physically.(touching/throwing something at it etc)
As interacting is acting upon the illusion physically and is what lets you get a save at all - would interacting with an illusion then inherently disprove an illusion and require no saving throw? Answer - no it wouldn't as that would make the whole wording of interacting pointless.
Yay logic.
you missed the second part of it though:
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
having your hand pass THROUGH a cage is in my book pretty good proof that it isn't real.
same thing with a fellow party member walking out.
now, if you cast something BIGGER than silent image, like p.e. major image, you start to nullify things.
p.e. a silent image of an orc spawning next to a group of enemies. The enemies have "scent" ability. they use that AND THEY DON'T EVEN NEED A SAVING THROW because silent image has NO smell, so they KNOW that there isn't anything there. Major image on the other hand would cause them to smell something. so they would need to interact with it, and spend a standard action.
since none of the illusions has tactile sense, a touch pass through, and usually autosucceeds, unless masked other wise, like p.e. an illusion of a fire (again possible with MAJOR image since it has thermal components)
and etc
edit:
to make my point clearer:
standard action/interaction, etc to GET a saving throw
if proof is present, it isn't AUTOSUCESS, it is NO SAVING THROW NEEDED AT ALL, so no action.