Does Improved Natural Attack stack with Spells like Strong Jaw, Animal Growth?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

My search-fu came up with conflicting answers. Anything definitive on this?

I know you can only benefit from one "growth effect" at a time, like enlarge person doesn't stack with Righteous Might to make you huge, since both make you large.

But INA and Strong Jaw increase your damage dice "like" you increased in size, but you don't actually increase in size. Where as Animal Growth increases your size.

1. So does INA stack with Strong Jaw?
2. Does INA stack with Animal Growth?
3. Does INA stack with SJ and AG?
4. Does SJ stack with AG?

Thanks

Scarab Sages

They should all stack as they derive their bonuses (though similar) from different sources - one is training (INA), one is a size change (AG), and one is an enhancement that doubles the number of damage dice (SJ).

Note you shouldn't confuse size altering spells (Animal Growth) with spells that only give you a benefit that is equivalent to what a size change would give (Strong Jaw).


1:No
2:Yes
3:...
4:Yes

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

And within 2 posts conflicting answers. Guess it's not your search-fu.

I'm personally agreeing with Cap. Darling due to the wording of the feat Improved Natural Attack and the spell Strong Jaw.

Both look to your base form and improve it.

Scarab Sages

Let's throw an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Impact) onto the pile then.

... or a Belt of Thunderous Charging?

Emphasis in the spoilers on the relevant part. I'm on the fence now as to whether they stack.

Strong Jaw (APG):
Laying a hand upon an allied creature’s jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature’s natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is (see page 302 of the Pathfinder Bestiary for more information). If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature’s size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged.

Improved Natural Attack:
Attacks made by one of this creature’s natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisites: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the
creature’s size had increased by one category
. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.


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1. Abilities that act as if you are X sizes larger do not stack with each other. This is because if you are medium, having 2 abilities that act as if you are 1 size larger would both make you act as if you are large, but since they do not actually make you large, they cannot stack because they are both operating on your actual size.

2. Abilities that change your size do not stack with each other. I believe that all of these abilities are polymorphs which explicitly to not stack.

But abilities that actually change your size will stack with abilities that makes you act as if you are larger.

Scarab Sages

Animal growth, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, and Reduce Animal are not polymorph spells. But size increasing spells do not stack, and neither do size decreasing spells. But it appears a size increasing and a size reducing spell will stack.

Silver Crusade

Charender wrote:

1. Abilities that act as if you are X sizes larger do not stack with each other. This is because if you are medium, having 2 abilities that act as if you are 1 size larger would both make you act as if you are large, but since they do not actually make you large, they cannot stack because they are both operating on your actual size.

2. Abilities that change your size do not stack with each other. I believe that all of these abilities are polymorphs which explicitly to not stack.

But abilities that actually change your size will stack with abilities that makes you act as if you are larger.

To add to that:

Not only does Polymorph not stack with Polymorph, but Size increases do not stack with other Size increases; Much like Dice Size increases do not stack with other Dice Size increases.

Essentially you can have ONE size increase and ONE Dice Size increase active at the same time - Is what it boils down to. Any others of the same type, just overlap.

I still have yet to find a way if it's possible to go beyond Gargantuan damage/size/effectivesize. I know as a Druid you can become Huge and use Strong Jaw...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Edit: was trying to prove enlarge person/animal growth via sylvan sorcerer, but read the spells wrong, they themselves state that magical enlargements don't stack, my bad.

Another edit:

Using summon monster/nature's ally to summon a gargantuan animal
Tyrannosaurus Rex / Brachiosaurus / Dire Crocodile which gets animal growthed to Colossal and then subject of Strong Jaw will be at collossal++

T-rex bite 4d6
Animal Growth T-rex bite attack 6d6
Animal Growth T-rex with Strong Jaw bite attack 12d6

Sadly because it's a summon it won't have the vital strike line for even more dice :P


The best I can do for damage potential is a medium-sized Cave Druid. Wild Shape into a Carnivorous Crystal. With a 7d6 slam attack, it's pretty good for vital strike or FoB with feral combat training, assuming one can find a way to get the necessary pre-reqs.

Since you're still technically a humanoid and this polymorph effect is not increasing size, Enlarge Person stacks with it. As a druid, one has access to Strong Jaw for another 2 effective size categories.

If you really want to split hairs:

Quote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. (...) If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

Ooze is not in that list, meaning your gear does not meld into your body RAW. Then again, the Cave Druid's wild shape says to consider the ooze shape as a magical beast without the natural armor, though I'm of the belief that's only to gauge the effects of how it works with the spell; the polymorph effect is still into an ooze.

As to the thread's question, it's already been answered. Most everyone agrees that considered effects do not stack, even though the sources and targets can be different based on the effect in question and there's no official ruling AFAIK. I believe it's one of those cases where people see the balance threat and are looking for a reason to disallow it.

Sczarni

HERE is an ongoing FAQ request for this same question (with 57 hits so far).

Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw is just one of a few combinations that are in question.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:

HERE is an ongoing FAQ request for this same question (with 57 hits so far).

Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw is just one of a few combinations that are in question.

Good to know.


Thanks for the info.

What about abilities or items that don't reference size but instead say increase damage by "one step" like 1-pt Evolution-Improved Damage and Cloak of Fangs.


It really depends on the situation. INA actually increases your base damage so it should stack with all of the others.


wraithstrike wrote:
It really depends on the situation. INA actually increases your base damage so it should stack with all of the others.
Improved Natural Attack wrote:
The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category.

This is why many argue it doesn't stack with the other abilities that treat you as if you were larger; INA does the same thing.

Sczarni

fretgod99 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It really depends on the situation. INA actually increases your base damage so it should stack with all of the others.
Improved Natural Attack wrote:
The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category.
This is why many argue it doesn't stack with the other abilities that treat you as if you were larger; INA does the same thing.

Indeed.

It's the same language as Impact and Lead Blades, and we know they don't stack.

Though the reasons given are that they are a) "similar effects", and b) one references the other as a requirement.


I'd say yes. improved natural attack is an exceptionally strong jaw, an exceptionally large set of claws. You've physically, mundanely changed the natural weapon in question. Strongjaw magically imbues the claw/bite/talon with with MORE POWER!


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I'd say yes. improved natural attack is an exceptionally strong jaw, an exceptionally large set of claws. You've physically, mundanely changed the natural weapon in question. Strongjaw magically imbues the claw/bite/talon with with MORE POWER!

My personal take is that you get one actual size increase and one "as if you were" size increase, and that's that.

Improved natural attack is obviously dealing damage "as if you were" one size larger, so it wouldn't stack with Strong Jaw. It would stack, quite handily, with animal growth.

As an aside: This, this (24d8 damage on a natural attack!!!) is entirely all right for you, but 4 extra AC from Wis is munchkin madness?

I do not comprehend at all how your mind works, BNW.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:


As an aside: This, this (24d8 damage on a natural attack!!!) is entirely all right for you, but 4 extra AC from Wis is munchkin madness?

I do not comprehend at all how your mind works, BNW.

My mind works?

Munchkinism isn't determined by the power of the ability alone. For example a slumber hex happy witch with a 20 starting intelligence, improved ability, persistent hex etc is far more powerful than either option but is 100% legal without any ambiguity. Its not relying on any gray areas of the rules or rules lawyering shenanigans to work: it just flat out is that powerful.

I'm unaware of any generic one size increase only rule.


fretgod99 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It really depends on the situation. INA actually increases your base damage so it should stack with all of the others.
Improved Natural Attack wrote:
The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category.
This is why many argue it doesn't stack with the other abilities that treat you as if you were larger; INA does the same thing.

I know how the feat reads, and how the others read, and it is the other work off of your base damage while INA actually changes your base damage. Of course I doubt I could prove this with the current rules as written, but I think the PDT team would rule it that way if there was an FAQ on it.


wraithstrike wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It really depends on the situation. INA actually increases your base damage so it should stack with all of the others.
Improved Natural Attack wrote:
The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category.
This is why many argue it doesn't stack with the other abilities that treat you as if you were larger; INA does the same thing.
I know how the feat reads, and how the others read, and it is the other work off of your base damage while INA actually changes your base damage. Of course I doubt I could prove this with the current rules as written, but I think the PDT team would rule it that way if there was an FAQ on it.

Do you think it's because the benefit from INA is permanent that it's supposed to be treated differently? Just curious as to the line of thought more than anything.

Stacking size increases isn't a particularly clear area of the rules. So I'm honestly not sure what was intended and what does or doesn't work half the time, anyway.


I'd go with INA and Strong Jaw stacking. First, INA is a feat, the other a spell and whereas I've never seen a rule limiting "as if" size increases, different bonus sources usually stack.

Second, the feat INA is a permanent bonus that isn't effected by polymorph or Wild Shape; no matter what form you're in, you have that benefit, so I'm not sure why a spell would then negate it.

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