Fist Discrepancy?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

So I was looking at the Earth domain (metal sub-domain) ability Metal Fist and I learned that its a little underwhelming when compared to the other 'fist' abilities.

Wooden Fist from the Plant domain makes your unarmed attacks do lethal damage and not provoke AoO.

The spell Stone Fist lasts for 1 min/lvl, ignore hardness of 7 or less, does 1d6 lethal damage and does not provoke AoO.

Metal fist (which I would think is better than Stone Fist) only does 1d6 + STR but as non-lethal damage, bypasses DR less than 11 and doesn't provoke AoO.

I get the STR bonus in damage, but really don't the other two do the same? Why can't Metal Fist do lethal damage?

EDIT: Especially when a Gauntlet (which is generally made of metal) does lethal damage.


where did you get that it deals non-lethal?

it says it deals 1d6+str bludgeoning, nothing about non-lethal.

as it turns them to a weapon (it doesn't provoke and etc) i would assume that you go by weapon rules, and weapons do lethal damage unless specifically they say they deal non lethal

Grand Lodge

The wording says "As a swift action, you can turn your fists into metal for 1 round, allowing you to make unarmed strikes that deal 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage plus your Strength modifier."

Unarmed strikes are non-lethal, and usually only do 1d3 damage for a medium creature.


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So what happens when you do non-lethal damage to objects? The Metal Fist description has some language about ignoring hardness when you strike objects.


Objects are immune to nonlethal damage. You can do lethal damage with unarmed strikes by applying a -4 penalty to your attacks, though, so it doesn't really have much bearing on whether metal fist was intended to deal lethal or nonlethal by default.

Grand Lodge

Well, like I said, I thought it was odd. The whole feature is poorly worded when you compare it with the other spells and spell like abilities that are almost identical. It seemed odd.


Agreed.

Liberty's Edge

I'd say it does lethal damage because it calls the type of damage out as bludgeoning.

If it were non-lethal, it would specifically call out the damage as being non-lethal.


I am sure it is an oversight. I would not make a person take the -4 to do lethal damage and I would not make them suffer AoO when using the Metal Fists.

Now, if you are asking for PFS, then technically I get your point and you would likely have to play it as an unarmed strikes that provokes and does nonlethal damage unless you take the -4 penalty.


if the language was something like:
increases the damage of your fists to 1d6 i would say yes, you are correct.
but now it doesn't "increase" the damage. it completly changes to to 1d6 (even if you were a monk doing 2d6 damage p.e) of bludgeoning damage.

so i say it is like a weapon doing lethal damage, it would need to specifically call out that it is non-lethal


shroudb wrote:

if the language was something like:

increases the damage of your fists to 1d6 i would say yes, you are correct.
but now it doesn't "increase" the damage. it completly changes to to 1d6 (even if you were a monk doing 2d6 damage p.e) of bludgeoning damage.

so i say it is like a weapon doing lethal damage, it would need to specifically call out that it is non-lethal

If you were a monk or anyone else with unarmed strike then the lethal/nonlethal damage issue would be solved. It would be lethal. Yes, lethal damaged changed to 1d6, but lethal nonetheless.

The issue only arises with a person who does not have unarmed strike who then gets metal fist. It does not say that your fists is a manufactured weapon. It says that it remains and unarmed strike that now does 1d6. RAW this would mean 1d6 nonlethal that provokes an AoO.

Now, I do not really care because I agree that what you wish it to be (though it is not by RAW) is what is RAI and what it should be. Therefore, I leave this issue to rest.

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