Discrimination against SE Asians, and a separate personal experience that makes me go hmmm....


Off-Topic Discussions


Threats are Now a Daily event for Many US Muslims

Something that I've pointed out previously, in regards that Asians are one of the most discriminated groups these days (especially those from SE Asia), but many still try to hide or pretend such discrimination doesn't exist.

Things like this

Quote:


Indeed, just days after Bennett’s remarks, Imad Enchassi, senior Imam at the Islamic Council of Greater Oklahoma started receiving specific threats that his congregation’s mosque would be burned down during Friday services, with his congregation inside.

“We’re going to chop your head off. We’re going to burn your mosque,” Enchassi said in an interview, ticking off some of the threats he has received. “We got specific threats of beheading Muslims in the state. Beheading children
.......

But for the members of his community, he said, the threats are no joke. The adults try to shield children from too much knowledge of what is being said about people like them, but it’s difficult. On days when the threats are particularly bad, he said, children at the Islamic Council’s school are kept inside at recess out of fear of attacks.

Are a horrible thing...no one should have to worry about being attacked, and even more so, the children!

On a different note...

Am slowly moving back to an area where we had faced some discrimination, as the perpetrators that were doing the assaults are now supposedly gone and no longer a problem.

So, I needed a carpet cleaner and went to the store. They stated they needed my ID, so I presented my DL. The person than stated,"It has to be a current ID." Mystified, looked at mine, and yes...it didn't expire until 2015. I pointed this out, and they then stated, but it has to be a local ID.

More mystified, I pointed out that I was in the county, this isn't exactly foreign...and they then said...it had to be LOCAL, like within the city limits...and did I have anything like that.

This was to rent a Carpet cleaner...I've never heard of such a ridiculous policy and with a city as small as it is...they must have 0 business if they apply that to everyone.

This was at a national chain store...and I don't see how they can tell whether an ID is from the actual city limits...or not...unless they are highly familiar with the city itself.

I went elsewhere...but in retrospect I'm wondering if that person was discriminating against me or not.

Upon further investigation, I found all that was needed was an Instate ID...nothing about it being a LOCAL ID as they stated.

I feel as if it could have been discrimination based on Orientation/Race...but maybe it was something else? I don't know...but I feel as if something wasn't right and I was denied being able to rent it for something other than policy.

Another oddity was that when I first asked about a carpet cleaner, we talked about the stains...and they tried to dissuade me right at the front from renting by saying...if it's been in there over 12 hours...there's no sense in you renting a carpet cleaner as you won't be able to get the stain out.

I don't know...the entire episode sort of makes me wonder if I should report it to the contact via the website for the chain of stores or not?

Indecision, as once again, if it is discrimination, it's not blatant, as the type I've had before in this area.

So, thought I'd see what others thought about it that are NOT in this area (much safer that way).


Sounds like someone who a) didn't want to do the job because it wouldn't work well, b) wasn't very up to date on policies, or c) both. My suggestion is to let it rest.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

an ID needed at all for a carpet cleaner? this is a problem far worse than racism.


Yakman wrote:
an ID needed at all for a carpet cleaner? this is a problem far worse than racism.

Some form of ID is generally needed for any rental. They want to know who to go after if you don't bring it back.

Liberty's Edge

Sounds like they didn't want you to bring it back, complain it didn't work, and want your money back. Was your ID in state?

Also, your quote does very, very little to help prove your case on racial discrimination. Religious discrimination against muslims? Sure. I live in Oklahoma, no doubt in my mind there.


It gets even more silly when you don't even have a governmental issued ID card in the first place.

Like I recently bought a new cellphone online. This was no problem, and a few days later the cellphone and a new simcard as delivered at my house. Unfortunately, the simcard hadn't been pre-activated, and the automatic activation service didn't work (or maybe I was too blonde to understand how to make it work). Either way. New simcard didn't work.

So I go to the store of the original retailer and go "hi, this new simcard doesn't work, can you activate it for me." And he's like "Sure. Do you have any ID?"

Me: "Uh. I don't think so? I have a... library card?"

Him: "It has to be a driver's license or a valid passport."

Me: "I don't have a driver's license, and - and this might come as a shock - I usually don't carry my passport around with me. Besides, I'm pretty sure it's expired."

Him: "Then I can't help you."

So I still don't have my new phone because I refuse to pay a passport renewal fee (which is, like, $200) and wait two weeks just to get a simcard manually activated.

*hrmph*

I mean, I get why this policy exists, it just gets really dumb when there's no surrounding infrastructure (ie. a national id policy) to support it. Anyway. this thread is really more about racism than ID policies, so I apologize for the derail. But it felt good to get it out! :)

(And honestly, who wouldn't rent a carpet cleaner to a wolf? I mean, c'mon!)

The Exchange

Get a burner sim and a recharge code from the checkout operator at woolworths. Prepaid.


ShadowcatX wrote:

Sounds like they didn't want you to bring it back, complain it didn't work, and want your money back. Was your ID in state?

Also, your quote does very, very little to help prove your case on racial discrimination. Religious discrimination against muslims? Sure. I live in Oklahoma, no doubt in my mind there.

What happens, is if you are white and Muslim (actually rather rare in the US), you don't get as much against you if you are of Arabian (aka, SW Asian) descent.

You still can get some serious stuff tossed at you if you go all out in the traditional clothing, but it seems like people are not quite as hostile...even then, there are VERY few European Muslims in the States relatively speaking.

On the otherhand, a majority getting death threats are the SW Asians, North Africa Types, and other Asians (Ironically, Americans occasionally can't tell the difference between Hindi and Muslim, and throw hatecrimes and death threats towards them as well for being Muslim, even though they aren't).

SE Asians from certain nations who wear the traditional Islamic attire I understand get it even worse, as not only are they persecuted for the idea of them being Muslim, but also for being East Asian.

People normally equate the SW Asian (normally the Arabic peoples) with Islam, which is not a bad assumption since a majority of SW Asians are Muslim (I'm certain there are some that are not, there are Christian communities in the ME believe it or not), and hence I find the hate and hate crimes are more focused on the SW Asians in the assumption that they are all automatically Islamic.

People don't look at a person of White European descent and say...oh...that guy must be Muslim...but they do with SW Asians many times.

For many, SW Asian and Muslim mean the same thing to them...it's a stereotype that they are against...and for some reason think all SW Asians who are Muslims are crazies like they see on TV.

Unfortunately, for Asian Americans (especially those of SW Asian descent born in the US), it doesn't matter if you are just as American as they are...for some reason they (those who do these hate crimes and simple discrimination) always consider you a foreigner and are a bit wary of you.


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GWL, I think you should report it to the chain's website, just make an effort to describe it as calmly as you have here instead of putting racism in the subject line. Starting the conversation with accusations of racism can have a distancing effect, but if store policies are being applied at the local level in a fashion that leaves potential (or maybe that should be dissuaded) customers wondering if racism is at work, the higher-ups will want to know.

Liberty's Edge

GreyWolfLord wrote:

What happens, is if you are white and Muslim (actually rather rare in the US), you don't get as much against you if you are of Arabian (aka, SW Asian) descent.

You still can get some serious stuff tossed at you if you go all out in the traditional clothing, but it seems like people are not quite as hostile...even then, there are VERY few European Muslims in the States relatively speaking.

On the otherhand, a majority getting death threats are the SW Asians, North Africa Types, and other Asians (Ironically, Americans occasionally can't tell the difference between Hindi and Muslim, and throw hatecrimes and death threats towards them as well for being Muslim, even though they aren't).

SE Asians from certain nations who wear the traditional Islamic attire I understand get it even worse, as not only are they persecuted for the idea of them being Muslim, but also for being East Asian.

People normally equate the SW Asian (normally the Arabic peoples) with Islam, which is not a bad assumption since a majority of SW Asians are Muslim (I'm certain there are some that are not, there are Christian communities in the ME believe it or not), and hence I find the hate and hate crimes are more focused on the SW Asians in the assumption that they are all automatically Islamic.

People don't look at a person of White European descent and say...oh...that guy must be Muslim...but they do with SW Asians many times.

For many, SW Asian and Muslim mean the same thing to them...it's a stereotype that they are against...and for some reason think all SW Asians who are Muslims are crazies like they see on TV.

Unfortunately, for Asian Americans (especially those of SW Asian descent born in the US), it doesn't matter if you are just as American as they are...for some reason they (those who do these hate crimes and simple discrimination) always consider you a foreigner and are a bit wary of you.

Your quote specifically says it will burn the mosque down with ALL the worshippers inside. Doesn't matter if those worshippers are white or not. (Remember, I was addressing the quote you put in your post.)

I do find it interesting that you totally avoided saying rather or not you had an in state ID for the rental place, so I'll ask again. Was your ID an in state ID?


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I agree with Hitdice. If this is a national chain, simply go to their corporate web site and position your comment as an inquiry about their ID policy. Put it as you did here, without bringing up racism. "I went to the store, presented an ID, and was not allowed to rent a cleaner because my ID was not 'local enough'."

Corporate will most likely come back with, "Wait a minute! That is NOT our policy!"
In response you get to say, "Huh. I wonder whether the fact that I'm <insert ethnic/religious group here> had anything to do with it..."

Corporate will be all over that office like a hammer.

I work for a global megacorporation (100,000+ employees) and my experience is that it's always the 1-2 punch that's the most effective.
"Excuse me, but this was my experience with your company."
"That's not right! We don't treat customers that way!"
"Could it be because I'm XXX?"

I guess it works because it first gets them to acknowledge that it's not their policy, THEN brings up race/religion/ethnic background. Hitdice is again correct in his? assertion that if you start out claiming racism, it frequently shuts down the dialog as the company decides to "lawyer up".

The problem is wording the complaint carefully enough in the first place to get that first response...

Sovereign Court

My guess is you were a victim of general discrimination. Probably less to do with your background specifically, and more to do with the fact you were not "local". My guess the clerk was worried that you wouldn't know how to use machine, might damage the machine, or might not even return machine. Its pretty awful and I'm sorry that happened to you.


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I don't think most americans are aware that Indonesian Muslims, or even non Arab Muslims, are even a thing.


ShadowcatX wrote:


Your quote specifically says it will burn the mosque down with ALL the worshippers inside. Doesn't matter if those worshippers are white or not. (Remember, I was addressing the quote you put in your post.)

I do find it interesting that you totally avoided saying rather or not you had an in state ID for the rental place, so I'll ask again. Was your ID an in state ID?

On further reflect, I'd say, yes....I'll agree it is religious discrimination. That's how it's written, with the caveat this is something that directly affects Asian Americans currently due to the background of many of them as well.

The first ID...was NOT an In State ID. That stated, I did have in-state ID issued directly from the city...but was told when I was getting it out that it had to be local, and since the address was NOT in city limits...basically, the address was not local enough. I then had other forms of ID beyond that, but as they did not have my picture on it, they stated those would not count.

Is that specific enough? I thought I went over that already in the first post.

I actually went back and got clarification from a manager. It appears that I actually had a form of ID that should have been accepted, and in fact that with my present situation...even the DL may have been acceptable!

BUT....I was kind of disgusted with how the first experience had gone and had an unhappy feeling turning over in the pit of my stomach, and I did not want to have to deal with the same employee again. I also didn't want to inconvenient the manager (who was called up on the phone line, they remained upstairs in their office, talking to an employee who was downstairs talking to me about their policies) who would have had to come to force the issue...and finally I didn't feel like that type of confrontation with the employee.

So I went next door to a store that rents the same stuff, and who accepted my ID immediately. They were also very helpful. Completely different experience with them.

Liberty's Edge

GreyWolfLord wrote:
On further reflect, I'd say, yes....I'll agree it is religious discrimination. That's how it's written, with the caveat this is something that directly affects Asian Americans currently due to the background of many of them as well.

I have no doubt that it hits that racial group more than others, I'm simply stating that the quote you provided didn't add to your case. I'm not arguing with you, just saying your evidence doesn't support it.

Quote:
The first ID...was NOT an In State ID. That stated, I did have in-state ID issued directly from the city...

A library card is not an ID in any real sense of the word. (As an Oklahoman, I'm going to be having to deal with this soon enough, Okla drivers liscenses aren't going to be enough to board planes in a couple years. Thankfully, tribal IDs are sufficient so I get off easier than some people who'll actually have to get a passport.)

Quote:
but was told when I was getting it out that it had to be local, and since the address was NOT in city limits...basically, the address was not local enough. I then had other forms of ID beyond that, but as they did not have my picture on it, they stated those would not count.

If you tried to provide an ID that said you lived out of state, and then when told that wouldn't work you tried to provide a second ID that said you lived somewhere else, I wouldn't rent to you either.

Quote:
Is that specific enough? I thought I went over that already in the first post.

Yes, that was specific enough. And no, you didn't go over it in the first post.

Quote:

I actually went back and got clarification from a manager. It appears that I actually had a form of ID that should have been accepted, and in fact that with my present situation...even the DL may have been acceptable!

BUT....I was kind of disgusted with how the first experience had gone and had an unhappy feeling turning over in the pit of my stomach, and I did not want to have to deal with the same employee again, so I went to a store next door that rented the same stuff...and where my ID was accepted immediately. They were very helpful, totally different experience.

Your best bet is to just shake it off. Were you discriminated against? Possibly. I greatly doubt it will be the last time. People suck, it happens. Just remember, their negative actions and attitude are not a reflection on you, it is a reflection on them.

Sovereign Court

Best thing to do is post online about your experiences. Tell folks how it was a huge hassle because of your ID not being local and eventually the manager said it was fine but by then it was too late. Be sure to tell folks how you went to their competition and they hooked you right up no hassle. Angie's list or BBB wherever.


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Am I the only one who figures that maybe the rental guy was just being lazy?

I just hate to assume the worst, but I can totally see the small-city rental clerk just not wanting to do his job for anyone of any race and coming up with a BS reason not to.

Sovereign Court

Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

Am I the only one who figures that maybe the rental guy was just being lazy?

I just hate to assume the worst, but I can totally see the small-city rental clerk just not wanting to do his job for anyone of any race and coming up with a BS reason not to.

Yeap, it's quite possible. That's why I would complain about the service but leave out assumptions.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

Am I the only one who figures that maybe the rental guy was just being lazy?

I just hate to assume the worst, but I can totally see the small-city rental clerk just not wanting to do his job for anyone of any race and coming up with a BS reason not to.

Yes, as I said, I wasn't certain if I was jumping to conclusions or not.

Their demeanor could have been misinterpreted by me.

It was interesting about how they denied the ID's. The manager only had to hear of one of them to say that it was an acceptable form of Identification, and with that, I didn't even need a local DL, or any DL at all.

The official site even lists the ID's needed (from Rug Doctor's site).

Quote:


Current Driver's License, Current Passport, Military Identification Card, Student Photo ID, Credit Card, State/DMV issued Photo ID, Immigration Card w/photo, or Store Check Cashing Card. Though Rug Doctor does not state that you need a credit card as one of your ID's, most stores will not rent a machine without a Credit Card. Deposits are not required at every store. If the store does require a deposit, the deposits vary.

Interestingly enough, I also had CC's as well, but didn't bring them out after they said it had to be photo ID. They didn't even ask for two forms of ID, they were very specific it had to be a LOCAL ID with a LOCAL (meaning in the city limits) ID. However, there are several forms of local ID accepted (for example, the Student Photo ID), and obviously passport and Military Identification cards are obviously not a city issued ID. I also had a current passport (for traveling out of country, which I have done and do), but they didn't even ask to see if I had that. I do, but didn't have that on me, but could have gone and gotten it rather quickly if they had even brought that up along with the other forms of ID I had.

There was a tone as well, but that doesn't translate to text, but it was almost as if I were illegal or doing something wrong in asking to rent the carpet cleaner. One of the reasons I didn't want to deal with that person again once I clarified what the actual ID needed for renting it was.

At the other location, I simply used the DL I had the Local form of ID. I also presented a CC, but they didn't ask for it. They were much easier to work with.


Pan wrote:
Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

Am I the only one who figures that maybe the rental guy was just being lazy?

I just hate to assume the worst, but I can totally see the small-city rental clerk just not wanting to do his job for anyone of any race and coming up with a BS reason not to.

Yeap, it's quite possible. That's why I would complain about the service but leave out assumptions.

That's why I recommended going straight to the top and just posting it as an innocent query to corporate.

Very frequently, neither the employee nor the manager at a chain store are paid enough to care.

NobodysHome's True Story Time::

We discovered our kitchen linoleum had asbestos, so, not having tons of money at the time, I did the entire extraction myself. (A process I STRONGLY recommend against. Being in a bunny suit and respirator in a plastic-wrapped room in the summer with no air circulation at all is NOT a fun pastime.)

With a completely-exposed floor, we decided to try Home Depot contracting. How hard could it be to lay down linoleum on an exposed floor and then nail in some moulding?

Apparently, VERY hard.

In the contract it specified that they would lay down leveling compound to level the floor, extend the linoleum under all appliances, and then put in the moulding.
The guys who were supposed to put it in were in a car crash in the morning, so were running 4 hours late. Rather than reschedule, they came in, skipped the leveling compound, didn't extend the linoleum under anything, and put in the wrong moulding, as evidenced by the fact that in some places there were 2" gaps between the moulding and the wall. WTF?!?!

So I took a bunch of pictures, highlighted the "leveling compound" and "satisfaction guaranteed" in the contract, and went in. The woman apologized profusely, and the guys came back. Just to rip out the wrong moulding and put in the moulding we'd actually ordered. Again, very poorly.
So I went in again, and said, "Look. These guys completely botched the job. You can put a bowling ball down on my kitchen floor and it will go roaming all over the place. They did not use leveling compound. They didn't do anything but spread some glue and stick the linoleum to it. I'd like someone competent, please."

The response was epic: "Sir, this is what will happen. I will send the same guys to your house. Over and over and over again. Until you declare yourself satisfied. I will not send another contractor to fix the problem. Either you call yourself satisfied, or you're going to have some very angry men in your house every week."

Yes. It was a threat.

So I notified corporate.

They never did fix my floor, but I checked a few times thereafter out of curiosity and never saw the woman working there again.

And just for the happy ending: I had to build a new studio. $65,000 worth of material. And not a single, solitary nail from Home Depot. (I paid the contractors extra to avoid going there at all.)

Nice work, Home Depot!


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Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Am I the only one who figures that maybe the rental guy was just being lazy?

Lazy or incompetent. I had an experience in a small town in New Jersey once, where I was unable to buy beer because I couldn't prove my age. My birth date was on my (Maryland) driver's license, but that didn't count because it was from another state. It was also on my (US) passport, but that didn't count because he had no idea what a passport was. When I pointed out that I didn't live in New Jersey, and therefore couldn't have a NJ-issued drivers license, he shrugged his shoulders and said that it was "state law."

Fortunately, this was New Jersey, and evidently "state law" didn't apply at the other liquor store across the street.

But that wasn't prejudice, just incompetent staff.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GreyWolfLord wrote:

Threats are Now a Daily event for Many US Muslims

Something that I've pointed out previously, in regards that Asians are one of the most discriminated groups these days (especially those from SE Asia), but many still try to hide or pretend such discrimination doesn't exist.

My spouse is an Korean-American trans-man (one of our five stars!) who volunteers at the local Pride center. As one might imagine, threats are a fact of life for him... and this is one the most "blue" areas of the country.


They needed my ID when I wanted to rent a small buffer. Apparently theft of such items is a real problem.


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NobodysHome wrote:
Pan wrote:
Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

Am I the only one who figures that maybe the rental guy was just being lazy?

I just hate to assume the worst, but I can totally see the small-city rental clerk just not wanting to do his job for anyone of any race and coming up with a BS reason not to.

Yeap, it's quite possible. That's why I would complain about the service but leave out assumptions.

That's why I recommended going straight to the top and just posting it as an innocent query to corporate.

Very frequently, neither the employee nor the manager at a chain store are paid enough to care.

** spoiler omitted **...

Good Freaking Lord! Never mind corporate, call the Better Business Bureau!


LazarX wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

Threats are Now a Daily event for Many US Muslims

Something that I've pointed out previously, in regards that Asians are one of the most discriminated groups these days (especially those from SE Asia), but many still try to hide or pretend such discrimination doesn't exist.

My spouse is an Korean-American trans-man (one of our five stars!) who volunteers at the local Pride center. As one might imagine, threats are a fact of life for him... and this is one the most "blue" areas of the country.

I will never understand how or why assaulting someone who's sexual tastes and lifestyle are different from ones own is life affirming in any way. Beating up someone because they are different doesn't make me feel safe. It makes me scared that I can't be myself.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
LazarX wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

Threats are Now a Daily event for Many US Muslims

Something that I've pointed out previously, in regards that Asians are one of the most discriminated groups these days (especially those from SE Asia), but many still try to hide or pretend such discrimination doesn't exist.

My spouse is an Korean-American trans-man (one of our five stars!) who volunteers at the local Pride center. As one might imagine, threats are a fact of life for him... and this is one the most "blue" areas of the country.
I will never understand how or why assaulting someone who's sexual tastes and lifestyle are different from ones own is life affirming in any way. Beating up someone because they are different doesn't make me feel safe. It makes me scared that I can't be myself.

I'm going to assume that part of the problem is that as a culture we don't have a uniformly recognised right of male passage, so we leave it for men to define on their own, as influenced by various outside sources, including peers and media. We tend to put our men in a state where they have to constantly prove their maleness to themselves and so a sign of gender irregularity in someone else becomes projected to this uneasy sense of sexual identity, so they have to prove themselves "male" to affirm that identity. Unfortunately for our culture, the sanctioned method to do that is violence.


LazarX wrote:


I'm going to assume that part of the problem is that as a culture we don't have a uniformly recognised right of male passage, so we leave it for men to define on their own, as influenced by various outside sources, including peers and media.

I'd be more convinced by this if I believed that cultures that do have uniformly recognized rites [sic] of passage were more tolerant of alternative lifestyles or sexual identities. The Fulani, for example, are the largest tribe in Nigeria, with a well-established set of (male) coming-of-age ceremonies, and I'd hardly call Nigeria a paradise for the LGBT lifestyle.


Freehold DM wrote:
I will never understand how or why assaulting someone who's sexual tastes and lifestyle are different from ones own is life affirming in any way. Beating up someone because they are different doesn't make me feel safe. It makes me scared that I can't be myself.

Many people don't want to be "themselves"; they want to be part of a group, and are willing to do a fairly thorough job of submerging their personal identity into that of their group. Beating on members of the outgroup is a good way of establishing ingroup bonding.

Frankly, Americans are the outliers here. The idea that "I can't be myself' isn't something most cultures worry about. It's being different from everyone else scares most people.


LazarX wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
LazarX wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

Threats are Now a Daily event for Many US Muslims

Something that I've pointed out previously, in regards that Asians are one of the most discriminated groups these days (especially those from SE Asia), but many still try to hide or pretend such discrimination doesn't exist.

My spouse is an Korean-American trans-man (one of our five stars!) who volunteers at the local Pride center. As one might imagine, threats are a fact of life for him... and this is one the most "blue" areas of the country.
I will never understand how or why assaulting someone who's sexual tastes and lifestyle are different from ones own is life affirming in any way. Beating up someone because they are different doesn't make me feel safe. It makes me scared that I can't be myself.
I'm going to assume that part of the problem is that as a culture we don't have a uniformly recognised right of male passage, so we leave it for men to define on their own, as influenced by various outside sources, including peers and media. We tend to put our men in a state where they have to constantly prove their maleness to themselves and so a sign of gender irregularity in someone else becomes projected to this uneasy sense of sexual identity, so they have to prove themselves "male" to affirm that identity. Unfortunately for our culture, the sanctioned method to do that is violence.

no problem with men going through rites of passage to prove their masculinity - even dangerous and violent ones. But that's what sports are for, not beating someone up.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I will never understand how or why assaulting someone who's sexual tastes and lifestyle are different from ones own is life affirming in any way. Beating up someone because they are different doesn't make me feel safe. It makes me scared that I can't be myself.

Many people don't want to be "themselves"; they want to be part of a group, and are willing to do a fairly thorough job of submerging their personal identity into that of their group. Beating on members of the outgroup is a good way of establishing ingroup bonding.

Frankly, Americans are the outliers here. The idea that "I can't be myself' isn't something most cultures worry about. It's being different from everyone else scares most people.

the pressure to fit in, I get. But when blood is the only way to look cool, it's not a group I want to fit in with.

Sovereign Court

I had an issue with Roto-rooter and would never recommend them ever. Anyways I had a plugged drain line to the street. I called Roto to have a guy come and run a line through my drain to the street. The tech that arrived was very unsure of himself and said over and over that his service was not guaranteed. Not only that but he charged double what a typical plumber would. I begrudgingly paid because I didn't want my basement to flood.

A few days later its backed up again. I call roto and they say they have to have a guy come out with a camera to check it out. Guy comes in and runs his camera and stops at some roots and is like "oh boy we got us a collapsed pipe here" He wanted 5k to dig up yard replace pipe and clean out. I asked him for a video and he said it "takes weeks to get a copy from the machine." "so when can I schedule this service?" I was like not until I get a second opinion. I could tell by the look on his face he knew I wouldn't be calling back.

I called two other local contractors and both of them where in the 2500 range half of roto rooter. One of them said hell I can clean this out without digging the yard at all. He did and I have been fine for 3 years now.

I complained and roto refunded the original jamoke's charge but not the con artist video man's fee. Turns out there is a class action suit to revoke roto's license from the twin cities because they are taking people to the cleaners with these jobs.

Anyways I reported them to BBB and tell this story whenever its relevant. I couldn't help but think of how many people just write checks over to roto because they don't know any better and trust a big company like roto to deal them right. Scary.


Freehold DM wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
I will never understand how or why assaulting someone who's sexual tastes and lifestyle are different from ones own is life affirming in any way. Beating up someone because they are different doesn't make me feel safe. It makes me scared that I can't be myself.

Many people don't want to be "themselves"; they want to be part of a group, and are willing to do a fairly thorough job of submerging their personal identity into that of their group. Beating on members of the outgroup is a good way of establishing ingroup bonding.

Frankly, Americans are the outliers here. The idea that "I can't be myself' isn't something most cultures worry about. It's being different from everyone else scares most people.

the pressure to fit in, I get. But when blood is the only way to look cool, it's not a group I want to fit in with.

What can I tell you Freehold, most people on this earth aren't so discriminating. :(


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Pan wrote:


Anyways I reported them to BBB and tell this story whenever its relevant. I couldn't help but think of how many people just write checks over to roto because they don't know any better and trust a big company like roto to deal them right. Scary.

The other issue is that BBB is -- by design -- useless. I've worked with them before.

* You call BBB to report an issue.
* BBB phones the company, saying "we have a complaint about you."
* A company representative says "Yes, well, the customer doesn't understand what's going on. You see, [lie]there was a frobniz in his mittelsturm and it cost us an extra $500 to get it out,[/lie] and he didn't want to pay."
* BBB marks the complaint as "satisfactory resolution."
* Someone else phones BBB to check on these people.
* BBB says "Yes, they have a 100% satisfaction rating with us."

That's one reason I recommend Angie's List instead.


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And this is how the big guys treat their CUSTOMERS! Now imagine how the treat their actual EMPLOYEES! And folks wonder why we still need unions.

Sovereign Court

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Pan wrote:


Anyways I reported them to BBB and tell this story whenever its relevant. I couldn't help but think of how many people just write checks over to roto because they don't know any better and trust a big company like roto to deal them right. Scary.

The other issue is that BBB is -- by design -- useless. I've worked with them before.

* You call BBB to report an issue.
* BBB phones the company, saying "we have a complaint about you."
* A company representative says "Yes, well, the customer doesn't understand what's going on. You see, [lie]there was a frobniz in his mittelsturm and it cost us an extra $500 to get it out,[/lie] and he didn't want to pay."
* BBB marks the complaint as "satisfactory resolution."
* Someone else phones BBB to check on these people.
* BBB says "Yes, they have a 100% satisfaction rating with us."

That's one reason I recommend Angie's List instead.

True but when you have a massive rip off racket going it helps to make the case if you have hundreds if not thousands of BBB complaints along the same lines. Probably not going to help the OP much, but if the OP can direct traffic away from the business with either incompetent or bigoted employee complaints then why not try.


You know when you get to that stage of knowing someone where they're comfortable sharing horrible racist and xenophobic ideas with you? That's a really awkward moment. Especially when they assume that because I'm white that I'll just nod and agree with them.

The things they don't know about me, my ancestry, and my personal life are legion, so I can't fault them for assuming. For example, they have no idea that some of my ancestors were among the most persecuted peoples in the world. I can fault them for having terrible beliefs though, and I'm never shy about letting them know.

I bring this up because just yesterday a lady I interact with at work proceed to tell me that ISIS was a major threat to America and we should never have let any of those [Arab slur] into the country. She insists that every person of Arab descent is a threat, and none can be trusted. This was not the first time she'd gone into a tirade on the subject (despite my reasoned and pointed rejection of her views). I have no doubt that if she were ever in a position to deny/hassle a person she suspected of being of Arab descent, or a Muslim, she would do so immediately. So it's very real, people this bigoted are out there. I can't say if the carpet scrubber clerk was such a person, but it would not surprise me in the least if he was.


My good friend Omar the Former Arab Terrorist has put a bumper sticker on his car that reads: "Afraid of Muslims? It's not them, it's you. Pussy."


Pan wrote:
Best thing to do is post online about your experiences. Tell folks how it was a huge hassle because of your ID not being local and eventually the manager said it was fine but by then it was too late. Be sure to tell folks how you went to their competition and they hooked you right up no hassle. Angie's list or BBB wherever.

Yes, and definitely don't say anything about how you tried to use an out-of-state ID first, then produced an in-state ID afterward, because that wouldn't raise any alarm bells in a rental agency at all

/sarc


Ummm are you sure you don't mean SW Asian? :confused:

Edit: Also, it seems a bit weird. One would think Photo ID, with perhaps proof of address such as a piece of mail would be sufficient...


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LazarX wrote:


I'm going to assume that part of the problem is that as a culture we don't have a uniformly recognised right of male passage, so we leave it for men to define on their own, as influenced by various outside sources, including peers and media. We tend to put our men in a state where they have to constantly prove their maleness to themselves and so a sign of gender irregularity in someone else becomes projected to this uneasy sense of sexual identity, so they have to prove themselves "male" to affirm that identity. Unfortunately for our culture, the sanctioned method to do that is violence.

As Orfamay said, I don't think a widely accepted passage into adulthood would fix the problem. The problem is misconceived notions that people need to fit into specified gender roles.

It's often commented that people use stereotypes to describe others, because as humans we need to categorize people and their social standing and it's much faster and easier to use generalized concepts that do a full inventory of every individual we meet. We use these shortcuts constantly, they're good when people can resolve social interactions quickly and to the benefit of all involved, but when negative generalizations dominate our lives bad things happen.

The other aspect is that because we use generalizations for everyone else, we also end up using them for ourselves. There's a concept in physics that nothing is a thing unto itself, but rather everything is a set of relationships. The volume of an object is not determined independently, but rather comparing it to another object for which we've assigned values to. You measure a string by holding it to a ruler, you don't measure the string independently. The same concept applies to ourselves (and others).

People don't create their sense of self out of thin air, they create it by having interactions with all of the people around them. Even strong and independent people. When someone enters the scene who is social different, people define themselves as "normal" by being opposed to this difference. One of the common definitions of manhood around the world is being able to commit violence when threatened. This is why when people show weakness or difference, violence gets used. Against weakness, it shows that you are stronger and capable of violence. Against difference, it shows that you are "protecting" your way of life.

If people are accepting of a "difference" there is a danger that they become associated with that difference. This could threaten social standing. George Takei has talked about it regarding his career. He thinks that most people on Star Trek knew he was gay and were even accepting, but he was worried about it becoming public knowledge, because he had seen other actors who's careers had ended by their outing.

This is one of the reasons that a broader mix of characters media is a good idea. A lot of our cultural norms are mirrored/created/altered in media. Having characters who represent a broader "norm" creates a less strictly defined culture where more different types of people are considered "normal".

TL:DR
People are mean to outcasts because they don't want to become outcasts themselves. Stronger cultural delineations only provide sharper contrast as to who is an outcast.


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Either that or you don't hand someone a 500 dollar machine for 100 dollar rental fee without verifying their ID.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Either that or you don't hand someone a 500 dollar machine for 100 dollar rental fee without verifying their ID.

What does the word "verify" mean to you?


GreyWolfLord wrote:

Threats are Now a Daily event for Many US Muslims

The comment section in that news article is atrocious. I've been taught by my parents that "hate" is a strong, terrible word that isn't to be used lightly.

I hate, with all fiber of my being, those people in the comments. I know this is basically "getting mad at people over the Internet" deal, but the sad part is, when it comes to Yahoo news comments? They are, for the most part, genuine.


Crayon wrote:

Ummm are you sure you don't mean SW Asian? :confused:

Edit: Also, it seems a bit weird. One would think Photo ID, with perhaps proof of address such as a piece of mail would be sufficient...

I did, got my typing mixed up, but by the time I realized it, it was too late to edit the title.

On retrospect though, SE Asian Muslims probably have it just as bad I imagine (though I don't have absolute proof of that, they probably have their mosques and religion persecuted just as much).

Sovereign Court

Scythia wrote:


I bring this up because just yesterday a lady I interact with at work proceed to tell me that ISIS was a major threat to America and we should never have let any of those [Arab slur] into the country. She insists that every person of Arab descent is a threat, and none can be trusted. This was not the first time she'd gone into a tirade on the subject (despite my reasoned and pointed rejection of her views). I have no doubt that if she were ever in a position to deny/hassle a person she suspected of being of Arab descent, or a Muslim, she would do so immediately. So it's very real, people this bigoted are out there. I can't say if the carpet scrubber clerk was such a person, but it would not surprise me in the least if he was.

I got a good one for you. This woman started working with me a few years ago. As I got to know her I learned she drove quite a far ways to work everyday. She had built a nice tiny little box to live in and hated coming out of it. I figured well to each their own some people just dont like trying new things. Other than that she seemed just fine to me.

One day I mentioned a vacation and how my mother wanted to go to Hawaii. She tells me that she had gone once and hated it. I was intrigued by this since it didnt seem like a place she would vacation. I inquired further and she told me her father liked going there because he was stationed so many years ago and is a nice vacation spot.

I asked her why she hated Hawaii then. She told me that she thought it was just awful what the Japanese had done. I agreed that Pearl Harbor was terrible but was quite some time ago and I imagine it wouldn't be a prevalent experience and was sort of dumbfounded by her explanation.

Then she laid it on me. This 35 year old woman believes that Hawaii was a place white people lived up until WWII. She is under the assumption that the Japanese either invaded and never left, or took over after WWII ended.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this.


Wow. That's stupidity in action right there.


Stream-of-consciousness:

I had a professor of Hawaiian/Polynesian descent who told us that during World War II, racist white officers had started a rumor among the Hawaiians that black people had tails.

According to my professor, and I can't corroborate this one way or the other, black GIs in Hawaii were repeatedly bewildered when the natives, trying to be polite, kept offering them pillows to sit on.

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