Grappling two (or more) creatures


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Few questions here, but for the sake of arguement, assume that we have improved + greater + rapid grapple.

Now, how does one grapple multiple opponents?

Initiating
First off, initiating the grapple I think I have down: Standard action to start a grapple, so each round you can add 1 creature into the throng of grappling. Assuming you had enough limbs you could grapple a new creature every round.

In addition, if there's multiple creatures grappling you, and you reverse the grapple, are you now grappling all of those creatures, or just the one who initiated it?

MAINTAINING
What about maintaining though? Is it a standard (or move) action to maintain the hold on all creatures, or just one at a time? By nature of the action economy, is every creature limited to maintaining the hold on two creatures?

Grabbing Master throws this into greater confusion.

Grabbing Master wrote:

You can grapple two foes as easily as one.

Prerequisite(s): Grabbing Drag, Grabbing Style, Improved Grapple; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.

Benefit: When you are grabbing two opponents while using Grabbing Style, you can use your grapple to move or damage one or both opponents you are grappling, instead of just one.

So, how does this work exactly? Do I:

A. Use a standard action to maintain them both at once, rolling my CMB once to maintain against both of thier CMD. If I surpass thier CMD, I damage or move them both. If I fail against one thier CMD, I fail to maintain -that- grapple, and only get to damage one of them. I get to do this with my move and swift actions, totaling 6 attacks.

B. Use a standard action to maintain one grapple, then my move action to maintain the other...

1. When I use my standard action to maintain, I only roll my CMB against target one, and when I succeed, I get to damage grapple target 1 only. Same with my move action and target 2. With my swift action I can damage both, rolling once(?) against both of their CMD's to damage. (4 attacks total)

2. As 1., but when I maintain the second target with my move action I roll against both of their CMD's and can damage both.

If A, could I then theoretically grapple up to 4 opponents, maintain the grapple for two opponents with my standard action and the other two with my move action (assuming I had enough hands)?


The grapple rules are badly written especially if something grapples more than one target (an octupus with 8 arms and grab as a worst case scenario). There are rules for multiple creatures that grapple one target but there are no rules for one creature that grapples multiple creatures.

The main question is 'how many grappled targets can i hold with a standard action' ?

Grapple wrote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, ...

In the related rules only the singular is used .. target, an opponent, the foe. So by the badly written rules we are limited to one target per hold and grapple check.

To grapple and hold more than one target you need the possibility to make a grapple check as a move action or faster.

The answer to your example is this:
B. Use a standard action to maintain one grapple, then my move action to maintain the other...

3. after one of this grapple checks ( a standard action can always be a move action) you make another grapple check via rapid grappler.

So one of your targets is damaged twice.


Without grabbing style each grapple check applies to one opponent.
With grappling style a grapple check to maintain (move, damage) applies to two.
I would play it as a single CMB from you applied seperatly to their cmd.
So if you were grappling 2 opponents with cmd of 20 and 25, and you rolled a CMB of 22, then you would hold one but lose the other.

With greater grapple+swift grapple+grabbing master+grab ability you could potentially maintain 4 grappled targets each round:
4attacks with grab, one at each target to initiate and grapple all 4 in round one.
Round 2 and onwards:
Move action to maintain (greater grapple)
It applus to 2 targets (grabbing master)
Standard to maintain on another target
Swift to maintain on the forth target.

Lantern Lodge

Eridan wrote:

The grapple rules are badly written especially if something grapples more than one target (an octupus with 8 arms and grab as a worst case scenario). There are rules for multiple creatures that grapple one target but there are no rules for one creature that grapples multiple creatures.

The main question is 'how many grappled targets can i hold with a standard action' ?

Grapple wrote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, ...

In the related rules only the singular is used .. target, an opponent, the foe. So by the badly written rules we are limited to one target per hold and grapple check.

To grapple and hold more than one target you need the possibility to make a grapple check as a move action or faster.

The answer to your example is this:
B. Use a standard action to maintain one grapple, then my move action to maintain the other...

3. after one of this grapple checks ( a standard action can always be a move action) you make another grapple check via rapid grappler.

So one of your targets is damaged twice.

Did you consider the feat quoted? It seems as if your options are what would normally happen without grabbing master, or is your opinion of that grabbing master is one of those "It says one thing, but doesn't really do anything" feats?

Lantern Lodge

shroudb wrote:

Without grabbing style each grapple check applies to one opponent.

With grappling style a grapple check to maintain (move, damage) applies to two.
I would play it as a single CMB from you applied seperatly to their cmd.
So if you were grappling 2 opponents with cmd of 20 and 25, and you rolled a CMB of 22, then you would hold one but lose the other.

With greater grapple+swift grapple+grabbing master+grab ability you could potentially maintain 4 grappled targets each round:
4attacks with grab, one at each target to initiate and grapple all 4 in round one.
Round 2 and onwards:
Move action to maintain (greater grapple)
It applies to 2 targets (grabbing master)
Standard to maintain on another target
Swift to maintain on the forth target.

Your Round two analysis confuses me, here's what I thought would happen:

Round 2+
Move action to maintain (greater grapple)
It applies to two targets (grabbing master)
Standard action to maintain (standard grapple)
This also applies to two targets (grabbing master) <-- Can I not use grabbing master twice in a round?
Swift Action to maintain (Rapid Grappler)
Applies to two targets (grabbing master)

For a total possible of 6 targets grappled (assuming you had enough limbs with the grab ability). Is there any reason why this doesn't work? Does the "When you grabbing two opponents" mean you can have no more than 2 opponents grappled while using the feat?

Oh Paizo! I partition the great FAQ for information on multiple grapples!


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There is a provision in Grapple for using only one hand to grapple: "Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."

So you can theoretically
Round 1:
Standard action: Grapple Target 1 using both hands.
Move action: Maintain and drag Target 1 half your speed to get adjacent to Target 2.

Round 2:
Move action: Maintain grapple on Target 1, and pin.
Free action: Release one hand from Target 1 (who is still pinned)
Standard action: Grapple Target 2 with one hand at a -4 penalty.

Round 3:
Move action: Maintain grapple on Target 1, at -4 penalty for one hand (but at +5 for controlling the grapple, so net +1). Pin or do damage as needed.
Standard action: Maintain grapple on Target 2, at -4 penalty for one hand (but at +5 for controlling the grapple, so net +1). Pin or do damage as needed.

It's tricky but doable.


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Grabbing Style lets you grapple one-handed without the -4 penalty. This makes it more likely that you can grapple two targets, but it doesn't actually change the flow of the combat: Each individual grapple still requires a standard action.

The way I read Grabbing Master, it lets you move or damage two already-grappled targets as a single action (move action with Greater Grapple, swift action for Rapid Grappler), but you still have to make both maintain checks. It also takes two rounds to get them both grappled.

Grapple isn't one of the maneuvers that can replace any attack, so you can't use a full attack action to grapple more than once in a round, no matter how many limbs or attacks you have. Grapple usually takes a standard action to initiate, with a couple of exceptions:

1) The "Grab" special ability lets you initiate a grapple as a free action, but it's in the monster abilities and not easy to come by. (Level 8 Tetori Monks get it.)

2) You can use Snapping Turtle Clutch to get an immediate action grapple attempt off your turn (when an opponent misses you), but you wouldn't be able to use Grabbing Style the following round to negate the -4 penalty. (You could with Master of Many Styles or maybe the Combat Style Master feat.)


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Without grabbing style each grapple check applies to one opponent.

With grappling style a grapple check to maintain (move, damage) applies to two.
I would play it as a single CMB from you applied seperatly to their cmd.
So if you were grappling 2 opponents with cmd of 20 and 25, and you rolled a CMB of 22, then you would hold one but lose the other.

With greater grapple+swift grapple+grabbing master+grab ability you could potentially maintain 4 grappled targets each round:
4attacks with grab, one at each target to initiate and grapple all 4 in round one.
Round 2 and onwards:
Move action to maintain (greater grapple)
It applies to 2 targets (grabbing master)
Standard to maintain on another target
Swift to maintain on the forth target.

Your Round two analysis confuses me, here's what I thought would happen:

Round 2+
Move action to maintain (greater grapple)
It applies to two targets (grabbing master)
Standard action to maintain (standard grapple)
This also applies to two targets (grabbing master) <-- Can I not use grabbing master twice in a round?
Swift Action to maintain (Rapid Grappler)
Applies to two targets (grabbing master)

For a total possible of 6 targets grappled (assuming you had enough limbs with the grab ability). Is there any reason why this doesn't work? Does the "When you grabbing two opponents" mean you can have no more than 2 opponents grappled while using the feat?

Oh Paizo! I partition the great FAQ for information on multiple grapples!

yes and no.

grappling master states that:
"When you are grabbing two opponents while using Grabbing Style, you can use your grapple to move or damage one or both opponents you are grappling, instead of just one."

so it applies only to the first two.

if it were stating that "grapple checks apply to two targets instead of one" then it would be like you said. But it specifically states two opponents.

but another view could be that the feat applies when you grapple exactly two opponents, no more no less


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Eridan wrote:

The grapple rules are badly written especially if something grapples more than one target (an octupus with 8 arms and grab as a worst case scenario). There are rules for multiple creatures that grapple one target but there are no rules for one creature that grapples multiple creatures.

The main question is 'how many grappled targets can i hold with a standard action' ?

Grapple wrote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, ...

In the related rules only the singular is used .. target, an opponent, the foe. So by the badly written rules we are limited to one target per hold and grapple check.

To grapple and hold more than one target you need the possibility to make a grapple check as a move action or faster.

The answer to your example is this:
B. Use a standard action to maintain one grapple, then my move action to maintain the other...

3. after one of this grapple checks ( a standard action can always be a move action) you make another grapple check via rapid grappler.

So one of your targets is damaged twice.

Did you consider the feat quoted? It seems as if your options are what would normally happen without grabbing master, or is your opinion of that grabbing master is one of those "It says one thing, but doesn't really do anything" feats?

Grabbing Master does nothing by itself. I had a post about it a week or so ago which came to the conclusion that for most PCs you'd need to have other feats to even use it.

Lantern Lodge

I thought I read that thread and the main issue was that there was no real way to initiate the grapple, but after you had two people grappled it worked fine.

The main issue coming up is how do handle the grapple check? One roll versus both of thier CMD's? Two rolls, one against each?

On a related note, how does this interact with constrict and the Animal Fury rage power: Should it be that both targets take constrict damage as well? Or both be bitten by the barbarian? Hmmm...


Yeah it was about getting more than one target into a grapple, which is rather difficult. As per grapple rules you apply the check to the CMB so I don't see what would be different by applying it to each. In general though the grapple rules are a mess and the new style just makes it messier.

Lantern Lodge

When grappling two people and using the grabbing style master feat, when you roll your grapple roll to maintain the grapple with a standard action, do you roll once for both opponents, twice (one for each), or can you still only maintain the grapple for one with just one action?


there is no distinct rule for the roll.

i would rule it roll it once and apply vs their cmd, like a simultaneously attack thingy.

as for how to initiate grapple vs 2 opponents, if you don't have tyhe grab ability you need 2 rounds:
round 1 standard action grapple.
round 2 standard action grpple the second target
move action to move damage both through grabbling master and greater grapple
swift action to move or damage both through grappling master and rapid grapple

constrict would apply to each target
animal fury would apply only to one target of your choosing (you only have one head to bite with^^)

but all those are how i would run them, the grappling rules are murky enough to have a ton of variation between tables.


I once played a tetori monk/white haired witch who would grapple one opponent in his amrs and another one in his hair.

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