Are there PFS Legal Sign Language options?

[Pythia, The Channeler]

nosig wrote:

I notice no one has pointed out the problem of Reading Lips with a speaker who is a Tengu...

Nosig,

I have journeyed with Tengu, and being deaf, it is indeed impossible to tell whether they are speaking, or if they are just cawing at nothing at all. all I get is "Clack, clackity-clack clakack." I have a journal page that simply says "TRANSLATION PLEASE!?" because of the many Tengu in my area...

[Professor Herp]

I hate dwarves and their stupid beards...

[nosig]

so, game wise, should there be a penility to Reading Lips of a speaker who is a Tengu (and a lesser one for a Dwarf ... and maybe Half-Orc with big tusks)?

[Hmm]

I don't know if there should be a penalty written in the game mechanics, but lots of GMs will rule that lip reading will suffer a serious minus under those conditions anyway. (One of my college roommates was deaf. She absolutely loathed the muppet show because she could never figure out what the puppets were saying.) Most of the expert lip readers I know still appreciate the possibility of a sign language translation.

Hmm

[Curaigh]

nosig wrote:

I notice no one has pointed out the problem of Reading Lips with a speaker who is a Tengu...

Hah! :) Recently...

GM: please introduce yourselves.
Oracle: I'm deaf but I can read lips.
Me: I don't have lips.
Everyone: ...
Everyone: ...
Everyone: ...
Sorcerer: Tengu?
Me: & fire wizard, at your service.
(finally): much laughter

('Tis a good sign when a table starts with everyone laughing BTW :)

[Brian Lefebvre]

Hmm wrote:

PS For all of you reading this who agree that Pathfinder Sign should be added to the guide, could you please hit FAQ on this thread? Paizo has done an excellent job with including all sorts of diversity in their world. A lack of sign language seems a strange oversight.

One of the problems is that Pathfinder Sign is not a full conversational language. Pathfinder Sign is described as being more like tactical hand signs instead of American Sign Language.

[Lormyr]

I did not yet see it mentioned, but Sakvroth is the name of the drow sign language in Pathfinder (see Into the Darklands for more detail).

Unfortunately, it is not (to the best of my knowledge) sanctioned in any of the AR.

Sadly for me, I also just noticed that the Bestiary entries do not include monster languages as legal. I wonder if that is an oversight? For the time being at least, I am going to have to reselect several dozen languages across my PCs.

[Mike Lindner]

Dylos wrote:

Cao Phen wrote:

I was aiming towards the idea of RAW that it has to be officially stated to be obtained, which this spell does state that Sign Language exists out of Drow Sign and the snail one.

The fact that it exists purely isn't enough to take it, the additional resources need to say that it is possible to take it with Linguistics, and in that spell it is referring to any sign language, not a specific one, just as the monk vow in Ultimate Magic is.

Compare to the Technology guide, which added a new language Androffan, which the additional resources mention.

Quote:

Misc.: Androffan may not be chosen as a known language. It may only be acquired through a Chronicle sheet

For PFS, only the languages in the Core Rulebook, Inner Sea World Guide, and Dragon Empires Gazetteer are legal (to be taken via linguistics), unless a boon says otherwise.

Here is a list of those languages
** spoiler omitted ** If it's not in that spoiler, and it's not Read Lips, you cannot get it by Linguistics.

For the sake of completeness the Dungeon Dweller trait specifically allows one to speak Dark Folk: "You start with one additional language chosen from the following list: Aklo, Dark Folk, Draconic, Goblin, Necril, Orc, or Undercommon."

[Dylos]

Mike Lindner wrote:

Dylos wrote:

Cao Phen wrote:

I was aiming towards the idea of RAW that it has to be officially stated to be obtained, which this spell does state that Sign Language exists out of Drow Sign and the snail one.

The fact that it exists purely isn't enough to take it, the additional resources need to say that it is possible to take it with Linguistics, and in that spell it is referring to any sign language, not a specific one, just as the monk vow in Ultimate Magic is.

Compare to the Technology guide, which added a new language Androffan, which the additional resources mention.

Quote:

Misc.: Androffan may not be chosen as a known language. It may only be acquired through a Chronicle sheet

For PFS, only the languages in the Core Rulebook, Inner Sea World Guide, and Dragon Empires Gazetteer are legal (to be taken via linguistics), unless a boon says otherwise.

Here is a list of those languages
** spoiler omitted ** If it's not in that spoiler, and it's not Read Lips, you cannot get it by Linguistics.

For the sake of completeness the Dungeon Dweller trait specifically allows one to speak Dark Folk: "You start with one additional language chosen from the following list: Aklo, Dark Folk, Draconic, Goblin, Necril, Orc, or Undercommon."

Well, I did specify linguistics, but good to know that I need to take that trait if I ever want to speak every legal language ever.

[Hmm]

Brian Lefebvre wrote:

Hmm wrote:

PS For all of you reading this who agree that Pathfinder Sign should be added to the guide, could you please hit FAQ on this thread? Paizo has done an excellent job with including all sorts of diversity in their world. A lack of sign language seems a strange oversight.

One of the problems is that Pathfinder Sign is not a full conversational language. Pathfinder Sign is described as being more like tactical hand signs instead of American Sign Language.

If you look at the history of ASL, it started out much like Pathfinder Sign -- It was rudimentary, and not a full conversational language. However, it bloomed at Gallaudet's school (probably because it was taught to children, who were noted for constantly inventing their own signs and variants of expression, often to the frustration of the teaching staff who felt left out.)

Like Tok Pisin, pidgin and trade tongues become creole and then full languages as they develop their own native speakers. Sometimes this happened very quickly indeed. Posit a school for the deaf in Absalom, and you could have Pathfinder Sign bloom into a full language in no time at all.

I'll accept Pathfinder sign, Sakvroth, or even (sigh) Flail Snail if we could have a sign language made available for PFS, learnable via linguistics.

Hmm

[Mike Bramnik]

I have one very military-minded character who always starts off missions trying to see if all of the characters in the party speak any languages other than common, specifically for trying to be clandestine. In the (also common) occurrence of that not working out, he suggests a few hand-signs to represent a few things, such as "heal me" or "I see something, everyone quiet" or "we're being watched".

So it's not even as fully developed as Pathfinder Sign (which I seem to recall shows up in a scenario somewhere, now that I think about it...), but it works in a pinch for a few things.

[Saving Cap'n Crunch]

I've wondered about this, as I like silent monks. I thought about using a chalkboard, but that would be really tedious.

[Dylos]

Theodore Berman wrote:

I've wondered about this, as I like silent monks. I thought about using a chalkboard, but that would be really tedious.

Not to mention impractical in combat.

[Saving Cap'n Crunch]

I think I said this another on thread, but I lost it. Ah, the things I put myself through. Anyway, my group lets me use a chalkboard or telepathy when available for my silent monk, though chalkboard would be really annoying in PFS if your GM is into role playing.

[Starglim]

Mike Bramnik wrote:

So it's not even as fully developed as Pathfinder Sign (which I seem to recall shows up in a scenario somewhere, now that I think about it...)

It's explicitly mentioned in boxed text of The Paths We Choose, at least.

[Hmm]

I've decided to delay the launch of the Oradin character that I built, in hopes that a sign language will become legal later. If not, I suppose that I could go with clouded vision later, for a different disability concept. While I know that I could do deaf without sign language, it's part of my image of deaf culture.

It just seems a shame that there is no legal option for this.

Hmm

[Jelloarm]

My favorite thing to do whenever I see the sign language threads is point out a canon instance of an NPC having sign language in PFS.

Before The Dawn:

In Part 1, while you're in Bloodcove, the leader of the fight in the tavern has sign language as a listed language.

[Dylos]

Jelloarm wrote:

My favorite thing to do whenever I see the sign language threads is point out a canon instance of an NPC having sign language in PFS.

** spoiler omitted **

There are also canon instances of NPCs having evil alignment in PFS.

We the players don't get to play with everything.

[nosig]

Dylos wrote:

Jelloarm wrote:

My favorite thing to do whenever I see the sign language threads is point out a canon instance of an NPC having sign language in PFS.

** spoiler omitted **

There are also canon instances of NPCs having evil alignment in PFS.

We the players don't get to play with everything.

so your contention is that there is one or more Sign Languages in PFS, but we as PCs are prohibited from learning them (like Druidic)?

[Dylos]

nosig wrote:

Dylos wrote:

Jelloarm wrote:

My favorite thing to do whenever I see the sign language threads is point out a canon instance of an NPC having sign language in PFS.

** spoiler omitted **

There are also canon instances of NPCs having evil alignment in PFS.

We the players don't get to play with everything.

so your contention is that there is one or more Sign Languages in PFS, but we as PCs are prohibited from learning them (like Druidic)?

A contention the additional resources would seem to support, since the additional resources goes out of its way to tell us when something provides a legal option for languages.

[Saving Cap'n Crunch]

Dylos wrote:

Theodore Berman wrote:

I've wondered about this, as I like silent monks. I thought about using a chalkboard, but that would be really tedious.

Not to mention impractical in combat.

Yeah, that's right....

I AM EMPTY HAND MONK KISS MY CHALKBOARD! YAAAAH! Oops, I just lost my ki pool for talking.
My last empty hand monk cut off a guy's head, by the way. With a candle. Versatile Improvisation, Ki Weapons, and Flash of Insight all the way.

[Hmm]

Given the lack of sign language in PFS, I've made the reluctant decision not to go deaf with my Oradin. I'll likely do tongues, a curse that I previously viewed as a cop-out. Sadly, the deaf curse is what most excited me about the Oracle class in the first place.

Hmm

[GreySector]

Hmm wrote:

Given the lack of sign language in PFS, I've made the reluctant decision not to go deaf with my Oradin. I'll likely do tongues, a curse that I previously viewed as a cop-out. Sadly, the deaf curse is what most excited me about the Oracle class in the first place.

Hmm

Your deaf oracle can learn to read lips with a point of linguistics. Your deaf oracle can also speak normally.

[Acedio]

The free silent spell metamagic from the deaf curse has saved my time oracle more times than I can count. It allows a lot of interesting actions that would normally be very difficult. For instance, my oracle can cast silence on himself and stalk casters while still being able to cast spells. If he has blessings of fervor he can cast 2nd level or lower spells as mental actions, which lets him to Remove Paralysis while paralyzed.

[BennActive]

I want Absolom Sign Language as a legal language in PFS!!!!!

I love the diversity Pathfinder brings to its story telling, but this is a disconnect from that diversity and the rules for society.

[Hmm]

I'm bringing this thread back to life because it was pointed out that (legitimately) that I was thread hijacking on thread about half-drow options in PFS.

____

John, Tonya, Linda, et al.,

I did decide to make Lyric the Singing Paladin deaf after all. I've played her so far up to 5th level and I'm proud to say that she's probably my most memorable character. There is only one thing that she is lacking -- a legal sign language.

Is there any chance that PFS will legalize an "ASL" (Absalom Sign Language) sometime in the future? The lack of a sign language option in a setting that otherwise celebrates diversity is something that I've found just baffling.

For those who comment that Pathfinder Sign is just a set of tactical signals, keep in mind that is how American Sign Language started... It was a rudimentary set of signals that was used for convenience in schools for the deaf, and then bloomed as its first native speakers (deaf children) embraced it, enriched it, and made it their own.

Hmm

[Grigorii]

I'll sign on for Sign.

[BigNorseWolf]

*pawprint* Pathfinder sign would be pretty thematic.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Zack Nagel wrote:

Isn't Drow Sign Language a legal option?

No it isn't.

[UndeadMitch]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Zack Nagel wrote:

Isn't Drow Sign Language a legal option?

No it isn't.

Psst, check out the date on that thar post you done just replied to, Slowpoke.

[BartonOliver]

I very much think there should be a legal sign language in game, though I'm less inclined to think it is a PFS specific issue. If a sign language evolved in Golarion (through the RPG-line) that wasn't from a highly secretive evil and currently being hunted race I don't think it would be an issue to call it legal for PFS. The problem with Drow Sign is exactly that it doesn't really make sense for it to have been learned by non-Drow.

(I'm not saying Pathfinder sign couldn't evolve either, just that canonically it hasn't and doesn't currently meet the definition of a language. - And yes, a school and specifically children would be the most likely way of that happening - though interestingly an all-girls school is likely to to be as or more effective.)

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

You're better off starting a thread in the general forums asking developers to include a generic sign language in a future sourcebook, that PFS leadership can allow as a legal option.

[Hmm]

Is it really an issue of there not being another Golarian sign language? We've even seen sign language in some PFS scenarios.

Hmm

EDIT: Petition for a non-evil Sign Language in the General Campaign Setting forum.

I feel absurd starting yet another thread on this, but I did as recommended. :(

[CanisDirus]

Joe Ducey wrote:

I very much think there should be a legal sign language in game, though I'm less inclined to think it is a PFS specific issue. If a sign language evolved in Golarion (through the RPG-line) that wasn't from a highly secretive evil and currently being hunted race I don't think it would be an issue to call it legal for PFS. The problem with Drow Sign is exactly that it doesn't really make sense for it to have been learned by non-Drow.

Apparently there is a non-evil sign language on Golarion - Sakvroth.

I am a big proponent of having Sakvroth being made PFS legal, even if it comes with some caveats.

Some ideas for restrictions on Sakvroth based on things John Compton brought up in the above-linked thread in order to try and balance it for PFS use?

• You'd need both hands free to speak in Sakvroth (i.e. very difficult to use in combat or while armed)
  
• Sakvroth is limited by line of sight
  
• You cannot use Sakvroth to cast spells or activate magic items unless you get that ability through a class feature (i.e. an Oracle's "Deaf" curse)
  
• Sakvroth can be subjected to Linguistics or Sense Motive checks by non-speakers to get the idea of what's being said
  
• Sakvroth can be understood by someone casting Comprehend Languages (and maybe Tongues as well)

(Also bump and my compliments to Hmm!)

[James Risner]

My reading of additional resources shows one legal since 2009.

[CanisDirus]

My reply is the same as Hmm's in the thread you've linked - it's always described (including in scenario #5-99) as short code-phrases or tactical hand-signals, and not an actual language.

[James Risner]

#5-99 I can work with, but I failed to find anything when I searched for covert or seeker. So I'm not sure which post refers to that "code"?

[Hmm]

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Apparently there is a non-evil sign language on Golarion - Sakvroth.

I am a big proponent of having Sakvroth being made PFS legal, even if it comes with some caveats.

Some ideas for restrictions on Sakvroth based on things John Compton brought up in the above-linked thread in order to try and balance it for PFS use?

• You'd need both hands free to speak in Sakvroth (i.e. very difficult to use in combat or while armed)
  
• Sakvroth is limited by line of sight
  
• You cannot use Sakvroth to cast spells or activate magic items unless you get that ability through a class feature (i.e. an Oracle's "Deaf" curse)
  
• Sakvroth can be subjected to Linguistics or Sense Motive checks by non-speakers to get the idea of what's being said
  
• Sakvroth can be understood by someone casting Comprehend Languages (and maybe Tongues as well)

(Also bump and my compliments to Hmm!)

____

I thought that Sakvroth was drow sign. If it is more widespread and non-evil, I would love to see it spread to the Pathfinder Society.

To Mike's excellent suggestions, let's add this as a campaign clarification: there is a ten percent chance of any given PFS NPC having a deaf friend or relative. (Yes, I realize that this may be higher than actual world proportions. But since when has game balance cared about reality?) Give those eight seasons of PFS NPCs a chance to know Sakroth if there is a signing member of the party. On a 19-20, they understand the language.

I would support all of the above as limitations to allow a Sign Language in PFS. Call it what you want: Absalom Sign Language, Pathfinder Sign, Sakvroth. Just allow it to be part of our world. We're not seeking to game the system. We just want the world to be a little richer and inclusive.

Hmm

[Kalindlara]

A version of "Pathfinder Sign" appears in #6-07: Valley of Veiled Flame as well...

Spoiler:

The simplistic sign for "trap", in the context of the scenario, is explicitly written to lead to a misunderstanding.

Not arguing for or against it. Just noting another data point.

[Partizanski]

I am putting my vote into being able to take PFS sign language.

The only issue I see is defining the limits of what this language convey. Is it basically a full language, or just able to send simple tactical messages (trap, enemies, get reinforcements etc). I think a good place to add this would be the guild guide.