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Are humanoids proficient with those weapons listed in their stat block? For other creature types, it is mentioned that those types are "proficient with [simple/martial] weapons and those listed in the stat block"—or however it is actually said.
For humanoids, though, it is "simple weapons or by class". It seems pretty silly that an Ettin wouldn't be proficient with flails, that ogres wouldn't be proficient with a greatclub, or that derro wouldn't be proficient with the aklys. Is there some obscure rule somewhere that I'm overlooking?
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The Derro should be taking penalties on its attacks (and the attack bonus shouldn't be that high anyway).
What are the problems with the Derro attack bonus that you're seeing? I'm not seeing anything wrong: +2 BAB, +2 DEX (from Weapon Finesse), +1 size.
Looking at 3.5, the Derro was considered a monstrous humanoid and thus had the "proficient with weapons listed in the stat block" caveat that was lost when it was changed to a humanoid.
I have a hard time believing that it was the intent to make these creatures no longer proficient with their preferred weapons.
And yeah, they really do need a "proficient with any weapons listed in their stat block" like they have for armor. Not sure why it was excluded.
But then imagine all the people who buy exotic weapons for their humanoid PCs and claim, "Hey, humanoids are proficient with any weapons listed in their stat blocks, and this exotic weapon is in my stat block, therefore I'm proficient with it now!"
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And yeah, they really do need a "proficient with any weapons listed in their stat block" like they have for armor. Not sure why it was excluded.But then imagine all the people who buy exotic weapons for their humanoid PCs and claim, "Hey, humanoids are proficient with any weapons listed in their stat blocks, and this exotic weapon is in my stat block, therefore I'm proficient with it now!"
Players characters don't have stat blocks, they have character sheets. ;-)
PC races have race write-ups. They only get what's on the write-up.
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There is an unwritten rule that creatures with racial hit dice get skills and proficiencies listed in their type and subtype definitions, while creatures that are defined entirely by their class levels do not. This rule ought to be made explicit, and also humanoids with racial hit dice ought to get proficiency with weapons listed in their stat blocks. As it stands, by a strict reading of the RAW, aasimars, tieflings, and all the elemental-kin races have martial weapon proficiency as a consequence of their type. This is ignored in nearly all cases, however.
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The bigger question is whether or not the PDT is aware of these inconsistencies. I think it's a safe bet that virtually no one in the entirety of Pathfinder gaming actually gives a -4 to the ogre when it uses that great club (or to the ettin or derro).
For the record, I do bestow a -4 penalty to them. I'm only mentioning this so that the PDT knows that there is at least one OCD shut-in who follows RAW as scripture. Maybe that will help them decide to change the wording.
Strife creatures with HD get things that creatures defined by class levels do not. That is why teifling and aasimars are not proficient with all weapons automatically.
If you are running a race that is defined by class levels you only get what that race writeup specifically gives you.
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I know...I'm not sure what I said that made it seem like I didn't understand the rules (not trying to sound jerk-y, I legitimately don't know if there was a misunderstanding somewhere). All I was saying is that the ogre, ettin, cyclops, derro, skulk, dark slayer, dark stalker, marsh giant*, rune giant, wood giant, ice troll, and great cyclops are all humanoids with racial HD and should only be using simple weapons as per the rules, but are wielding martial and some even exotic weapons, and I adjust their stat blocks so that they are following RAW. Meanwhile the fire giant, frost giant, hill giant, stone giant, cliff giant, ocean giant, and slag giant all went out of their way to burn a feat slot for Martial Weapon Proficiency.
*Marsh giants are odd because they use a gaff that simply says to treat it like another weapon (a flail I think?) stat-wise, but doesn't mention if that also means its a martial weapon or not. Personally I think a two-handed weapon that only deals flail damage fits the simple weapon category, so there may not be an issue here.
Ok. I get what you are saying now. It should be fixed. As for running a game by RAW, they will likely say "that is up to you" instead of it becoming a priority for them. I am not saying they won't ever fix it though. Most GM's will go with the RAI, and not weaken a monster based on a mistake, and they(PDT team) knows that. I am going to FAQ this thread so they can fix it eventually. :)
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Yeah. I'm eager though for RAW to match RAI. Then I can go back to those giants that are following the rules and replace their martial weapon proficiency feats with something better. Sean k Reynolds said that the reason why the humanoid subtype doesn't have that "proficient with weapons in their stat block" text is because they didn't want people to think pc-appropriate humanoids got additional proficiencies above and beyond what their class allows. That's why I think the change should be limited to the giant subtype, which would fix everyone but the dark stalker, dark slayer, derro, and skulk. Besides, once upon a time in 3.x, giants had simple and martial weapon proficiencies, then they became humanoids. I wouldn't simply give them all martial weapon proficiencies, though, just what's in their stat blocks. That way you don't diminish the usefulness of certain giants' abilities that give them additional proficiencies (like the storm giant and cave giant have).
Well, the defined only by their class levels one is easy. If you don't have Outsider Hit Dice, you do not get the benefits of the Outsider type. That's what I think a dev came in to say on the subject last time.
Yeah, that's why I said it's an unwritten rule.
By the RAW of the rulebook, it's pretty much not the rule, but in the Advanced Race Guide, it is the rule. My impression is that cleaning up the type descriptions it not a priority.
Yeah. I'm eager though for RAW to match RAI. Then I can go back to those giants that are following the rules and replace their martial weapon proficiency feats with something better. Sean k Reynolds said that the reason why the humanoid subtype doesn't have that "proficient with weapons in their stat block" text is because they didn't want people to think pc-appropriate humanoids got additional proficiencies above and beyond what their class allows. That's why I think the change should be limited to the giant subtype, which would fix everyone but the dark stalker, dark slayer, derro, and skulk. Besides, once upon a time in 3.x, giants had simple and martial weapon proficiencies, then they became humanoids. I wouldn't simply give them all martial weapon proficiencies, though, just what's in their stat blocks. That way you don't diminish the usefulness of certain giants' abilities that give them additional proficiencies (like the storm giant and cave giant have).
All they had to do was say the humanoid in question needs to have racial HD, just like they need racial HD to have certain skills count as class skills if there are no class levels involved. If they don't want to use the space in the book they do have the FAQ now.