What do authors owe fans?


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Tacticslion wrote:


I am a writer. Not an author - certainly not published and, due to my own inherent instabilities and weaknesses (part of which is self-doubt, part of which is laziness, part of which is attention deficit, and part of which is perfectionism, probably among others) I likely never will be.

However, here is what I know about writing: it is very easy, and very hard.

For example, let's look at my posting history. No, this is not what I meant by being a writer. It's merely a convenient example that all can see.

I have (as of writing this) "6,490 posts (7,878 including aliases)."

TL, you could have written a novel by now, and just this post alone would qualify for at least a couple of chapters! ;-)


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Well, I'm not saying that I'm planning on publishing Paizo Forum's - TL's Tale: the Rantings of a Nut Job...

EDIT: (hint: I'm not saying it because I'm not doing it. :D)

EDIT 2: and the world collectively breathes a sigh of relief...


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Tacticslion wrote:

I have (as of writing this) "6,490 posts (7,878 including aliases)."

That, sir, is a lot of writing.

Bah!


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Hey! You've got five years on me! I'm getting there!

EDIT: (Also: I said I was slow... ;P)


Tacticslion wrote:

Well, I'm not saying that I'm planning on publishing Paizo Forum's - TL's Tale: the Rantings of a Nut Job...

EDIT: (hint: I'm not saying it because I'm not doing it. :D)

EDIT 2: and the world collectively breathes a sigh of relief...

... and nothing of value was lost. (I mean, uh, I totally get my use of phraseology from philosophy. Yes.)


If a book is published in the woods, and no one reads it, does it exist?

No. It does not.

So what does an author owe their readers? Everything.

Barring an untimely death, I fully expect a conclusion to a story, and a satisfying one at that. Otherwise, I stop reading. I invested years reading and waiting for Stephen King to finish Dark Tower. I got to a point where (the same point I am with GRRM right now) I stopped buying and reading, opting to wait for him to finish. He did. I read the last chapter of the last book (yeah, I cheat sometimes) and dropped the series like a hot potato. (This is just a personal example and doesn't mean you have to join me in my hate for Dark Tower.)

As an audience, I have the right to not be betrayed, whether it's by a lack of an ending, or a poorly contrived ending. I have this right because there are literally thousands of other writers out there, eager to be heard, who will not betray me. And I would rather read something that's just ok that doesn't betray me, than read the greatest story ever told except for the sucky ending.

GRRM may not be my b-word, but competition sure is.


thejeff wrote:

More generally and especially with the vast majority of sf/fantasy authors who are struggling to make a living at it or still trying to break through enough to make it a full time job, they really can't afford to alienate their audience.

Which doesn't give fans the license to be jerks, but they don't have to keep buying the books either.

I also read a quite a few indy comics and though I was always pretty much of the "Oh hey cool! A new issue of X is out." school of thought, it was pretty obvious that a too slow or irregular schedule was a death knell. Even if people didn't get upset, they'd stop looking for it or shift their budget over to other things. It's the same with books, on a larger scale.

Come out with good new books regularly and your readers will keep looking for them. Wait too long between books and they'll stop looking for them.

Yeah, it's not about 'owing' anyone anything. 'Owing' implies something much more formal than preordering a book from B&N or Amazon, IMO.

It's really about cause and effect, as you describe. An author can take however long he needs/wants to write the next sequel, but he risks slipping from his readers' minds. Cause and effect.

I suppose it's great that some readers become Fans -- yes, with a capital F -- they're the ones who gave me the heads-up when the latest Wheel of Time book came out! But I prefer a more Zen attitude toward entertainment, like you: "Oh hey, the next X book/movie/game is out!" I find things much more satisfying this way. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

What a writer does with their time is none of my business. A writer doesn't owe me anything. If I buy a book and enjoy that book then that's that. If the book is part of a series, but doesn't tell a whole story on its own then I'll probably be annoyed and not continue reading the series.

In movie terms: I love Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope. It's a great movie even if you never watch another Star Wars movie. George Lucas didn't owe us prequels to that story. And look what happened when he did. We were all very sad about it.

I'm going to agree with Dudemeister here. To cite a movie that didn't get its sequels, I name The Golden Compass. Am I bummed that there doesn't seem to be any hope of ever seeing The Subtle Knife or the Amber Spyglass in theaters? Absolutely!

But Newline Cinemas and Chris Weitz don't owe me anything. I've long since done as Gaiman suggests in his blog: I read the books*, saw other movies, read other books, and got on with my life.

*Which are amazing, by the way!


I'm not bummed. The Golden Compass adaptation was atrocious, much like the Eragon adaptation I wish I could scrub from my memory.

They still owe me a good movie based on both.


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If George Lucas did owe his fans the prequels, does that mean his fans got what they deserved?


Rynjin wrote:

I'm not bummed. The Golden Compass adaptation was atrocious, much like the Eragon adaptation I wish I could scrub from my memory.

They still owe me a good movie based on both.

Lol, Weitz did Disney-fy the Golden Compass...but I still own and enjoy it! I find that my movie-going experiences are better when I don't expect movies to be just like the books, or just like the originals. That's how I'm able to enjoy the SW prequels and The Hobbit movies. :)

I found Eragon to be pretty forgettable, though. (Both the book and the film.)


I expect an adaptation to be an adaptation. Not a new story that is largely inferior to the original work, and simply uses the more well known name to get more butts in seats.

Sovereign Court

Thematically, you might argue that A Song of Ice and Fire is about endless cycles of conflict, tribalism and narrow self-interest.

Which means that, by not completing his novel, he is continuing his story in a new medium.

How does James feel about books which deliberately mess with reader expectations? Or those that are crafted with incomplete conclusions?

Some people think that Pathfinder Tales *owes* them third-person, past-tense writing. Are they correct?


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Tequila Sunrise wrote:


Yeah, it's not about 'owing' anyone anything. 'Owing' implies something much more formal than preordering a book from B&N or Amazon, IMO.

It's really about cause and effect, as you describe. An author can take however long he needs/wants to write the next sequel, but he risks slipping from his readers' minds. Cause and effect.

I suppose it's great that some readers become Fans -- yes, with a capital F -- they're the ones who gave me the heads-up when the latest Wheel of Time book came out! But I prefer a more Zen attitude toward entertainment, like you: "Oh hey, the next X book/movie/game is out!" I find things much more satisfying this way. :)

Yeah this pretty much.

If I like a book/book series, I invest...anywhere from 7 to 30 dollars (depending on where I purchase and the format) per book, and maybe a long weekend or the equivalent time units spread out over a month.

So I don't really feel that an author owes me much, other than an enjoyable read for what I have already paid for. There is so much fiction out there that its not like I can't find something else to read in the meantime.

That's why I kind of get confused on concepts such as "betrayal" or "owing"? Like...an author taking extra long doesn't even come up on my radar as anything like a betrayal. If the author slept with my wife...now that is betrayal...


Rynjin wrote:
I expect an adaptation to be an adaptation. Not a new story that is largely inferior to the original work, and simply uses the more well known name to get more butts in seats.

'...in the eye of the beholder,' and all that.


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MMCJawa wrote:
That's why I kind of get confused on concepts such as "betrayal" or "owing"? Like...an author taking extra long doesn't even come up on my radar as anything like a betrayal. If the author slept with my wife...now that is betrayal...

...And now I'm imagining coming home to some future wife of mine in bed with Neil Gaiman.

"I'm so sorry honey, but he's some kind of American God!"


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MMCJawa wrote:

That's why I kind of get confused on concepts such as "betrayal" or "owing"? Like...an author taking extra long doesn't even come up on my radar as anything like a betrayal. If the author slept with my wife...now that is betrayal...

Betrayal:

Someone taking a long time isn't a betrayal. I never said it was. What I said was a betrayal is a writer botching the end of a story, or failing to complete a story people care about, that they are capable of finishing. The better the story, the larger the betrayal if either of these occurs. It's a perfectly apt word. In fact it's the perfect word. People become emotionally invested in stories (that is what they are for) and when those stories let them down, what else would you call it?

Just as books can inspire, comfort, and evoke other positive emotional responses, so can they disappoint, anger, and betray the reader.

Owing:

If I open a book I expect to be entertained. That is a reasonable expectation. If the book is book 1 of 2, I am owed book 2. If book 2 is never published, that author gets crossed off my list. You know why? Because they are unreliable. You know what a common thread is among unreliable people? They end up owing other people. There are plenty of other reliable authors who will not leave me hanging.

Note that I never mentioned movies, particularly movies that are adapted from books. The Golden Compass movie doesn't matter one bit to me, nor do the Narnia ones, because if I want to I can read the books. Similarly, if HBO ends up finishing GoT instead of GRRM, I will be somewhat satisfied, because the story will exist in its entirety somewhere. It would be preferable if GRRM just finished writing it, but whatever gets it done, as long as it gets done. Until then, however, GRRM and/or HBO most certainly owe fans an ending, and failing to provide one, or worse providing a bad one, would certainly be a betrayal.


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Hudax wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:

That's why I kind of get confused on concepts such as "betrayal" or "owing"? Like...an author taking extra long doesn't even come up on my radar as anything like a betrayal. If the author slept with my wife...now that is betrayal...

Betrayal:

Someone taking a long time isn't a betrayal. I never said it was. What I said was a betrayal is a writer botching the end of a story, or failing to complete a story people care about, that they are capable of finishing. The better the story, the larger the betrayal if either of these occurs. It's a perfectly apt word. In fact it's the perfect word. People become emotionally invested in stories (that is what they are for) and when those stories let them down, what else would you call it?

Just as books can inspire, comfort, and evoke other positive emotional responses, so can they disappoint, anger, and betray the reader.

Owing:

If I open a book I expect to be entertained. That is a reasonable expectation. If the book is book 1 of 2, I am owed book 2. If book 2 is never published, that author gets crossed off my list. You know why? Because they are unreliable. You know what a common thread is among unreliable people? They end up owing other people. There are plenty of other reliable authors who will not leave me hanging.

There are exceptions. Obviously an author who dies or is otherwise incapable of finishing the story is not at fault. There are also cases where, no matter how much you like the story, it doesn't sell enough or for some other reason the contract falls apart and the the later volumes never get published. C'est la vie.

The author owes a good faith effort to follow through on finishing the story.


thejeff wrote:
The author owes a good faith effort to follow through on finishing the story.

This is pretty much all any author ever 'owes' insomuch as they 'owe' anything: a good-faith effort.

That said, a good-faith effort can still feel like a betrayal, especially if, purposefully or not, they undermine elements that made the rest of the series or story great.


Having read a dance with dragons, i definitely feel like I'm owed the other half of the book


Hudax wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:

That's why I kind of get confused on concepts such as "betrayal" or "owing"? Like...an author taking extra long doesn't even come up on my radar as anything like a betrayal. If the author slept with my wife...now that is betrayal...

Betrayal:

Someone taking a long time isn't a betrayal. I never said it was. What I said was a betrayal is a writer botching the end of a story, or failing to complete a story people care about, that they are capable of finishing. The better the story, the larger the betrayal if either of these occurs. It's a perfectly apt word. In fact it's the perfect word. People become emotionally invested in stories (that is what they are for) and when those stories let them down, what else would you call it?

Just as books can inspire, comfort, and evoke other positive emotional responses, so can they disappoint, anger, and betray the reader.

At that point the reader has gone beyond enjoyment into (unhealthy) obsession. No author can be held responsible for that. The author is only bound to provide what the reader just paid for.

Hudax wrote:

Owing:

If I open a book I expect to be entertained. That is a reasonable expectation. If the book is book 1 of 2, I am owed book 2. If book 2 is never published, that author gets crossed off my list. You know why? Because they are unreliable. You know what a common thread is among unreliable people? They end up owing other people. There are plenty of other reliable authors who will not leave me hanging.

An author is not responsible for your expectations, a story is provided as is for the reader to like or not like. You are well within your rights to never buy a book again from an author who wrote a crappy story or never finished what he/she started. Just because you find an author unreliable doesn't mean everyone else did. And just because you found something unsatisfactory, doesn't mean everyone else did.

Hudax wrote:
Note that I never mentioned movies, particularly movies that are adapted from books. The Golden Compass movie doesn't matter one bit to me, nor do the Narnia ones, because if I want to I can read the books. Similarly, if HBO ends up finishing GoT instead of GRRM, I will be somewhat satisfied, because the story will exist in its entirety somewhere. It would be preferable if GRRM just finished writing it, but whatever gets it done, as long as it gets done. Until then, however, GRRM and/or HBO most certainly owe fans an ending, and failing to provide one, or worse providing a bad one, would certainly be a betrayal.

Incorrect. Unless you personally hold a contract that says so, none of the people/companies you mentioned above owes you anything. You may not like it if the story doesn't get finished, but that doesn't make anyone beholden to your wishes. Ever.

Scarab Sages

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In my mind this is very simple, if George does not finish his series, and you are a fan; would you continue to buy books from him, and by that I mean books in a new series. If you wouldn't, a simple question of why is in order. If you can't answer that question with anything besides "he didn't finish the first series, so why would I start a second one", then you have the answer right there. The author in question obviously failed to fulfill your expectations. And that's what this is all about, simply expectations. An author does have certain expectations from his fans, if he starts a series it is expected that he should finish it.


David Gemmell (died mid series but that's not my problem with him) poorly executed a wonderful premise.... Knights of Dark Renown - it started so well and then it's like he realised he had to much story for one book or too many characters. All of a sudden it was wrapped up in two or three chapters. My wife who picked up the book at the same time as me rage quit reading Gemmell (she threw the book across the room, and she cherishes books). No mater how much I tried to sell her on his other well crafted multi book stories, she has never read another book of his.

I don't know if was him, his editor or publisher - but not short changing your readers is a must.


Simone Legrande wrote:
An author is not responsible for your expectations, a story is provided as is for the reader to like or not like. You are well within your rights to never buy a book again from an author who wrote a crappy story or never finished what he/she started. Just because you find an author unreliable doesn't mean everyone else did. And just because you found something unsatisfactory, doesn't mean everyone else did.

Is there no limit here? What if you plop down 30 bucks for a hardcover copy of The winds of winter, go home open it up and its the words ha ha ha ha repeated for 600 pages?


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All work and no play makes George a bad boy.


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I was going to say that I was imagining the world-wide outcry if J.K Rowling had failed to finish the Harry Potter series, but the thought is just too horrendous. On the other hand, she promised (at least implicitly) and delivered exactly 7 books in a relatively timely manner.

Unlike Robert Jordan and 'The Wheel of Time', where he seemed to think it fine to wander off into every side character's story.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Simone Legrande wrote:
An author is not responsible for your expectations, a story is provided as is for the reader to like or not like. You are well within your rights to never buy a book again from an author who wrote a crappy story or never finished what he/she started. Just because you find an author unreliable doesn't mean everyone else did. And just because you found something unsatisfactory, doesn't mean everyone else did.

Is there no limit here? What if you plop down 30 bucks for a hardcover copy of The winds of winter, go home open it up and its the words ha ha ha ha repeated for 600 pages?

Buying that book would make you a fool, not the author. You have opportunities to fully examine the product before paying. I've never seen a book store that doesn't let customers open a book before buying.


Simon Legrande wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Simone Legrande wrote:
An author is not responsible for your expectations, a story is provided as is for the reader to like or not like. You are well within your rights to never buy a book again from an author who wrote a crappy story or never finished what he/she started. Just because you find an author unreliable doesn't mean everyone else did. And just because you found something unsatisfactory, doesn't mean everyone else did.

Is there no limit here? What if you plop down 30 bucks for a hardcover copy of The winds of winter, go home open it up and its the words ha ha ha ha repeated for 600 pages?

Buying that book would make you a fool, not the author. You have opportunities to fully examine the product before paying. I've never seen a book store that doesn't let customers open a book before buying.

Online pre-orders?


thejeff wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Simone Legrande wrote:
An author is not responsible for your expectations, a story is provided as is for the reader to like or not like. You are well within your rights to never buy a book again from an author who wrote a crappy story or never finished what he/she started. Just because you find an author unreliable doesn't mean everyone else did. And just because you found something unsatisfactory, doesn't mean everyone else did.

Is there no limit here? What if you plop down 30 bucks for a hardcover copy of The winds of winter, go home open it up and its the words ha ha ha ha repeated for 600 pages?

Buying that book would make you a fool, not the author. You have opportunities to fully examine the product before paying. I've never seen a book store that doesn't let customers open a book before buying.

Online pre-orders?

I'd say that's a case of caveat emptor. If you're willing to buy sight unseen, you're accepting the risk. Now in an extreme case you might be able to go after the publisher or the retailer for fraud. However, the author can still get out of that because of the way sales work.


Simon Legrande wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Simone Legrande wrote:
An author is not responsible for your expectations, a story is provided as is for the reader to like or not like. You are well within your rights to never buy a book again from an author who wrote a crappy story or never finished what he/she started. Just because you find an author unreliable doesn't mean everyone else did. And just because you found something unsatisfactory, doesn't mean everyone else did.
Is there no limit here? What if you plop down 30 bucks for a hardcover copy of The winds of winter, go home open it up and its the words ha ha ha ha repeated for 600 pages?
Buying that book would make you a fool, not the author. You have opportunities to fully examine the product before paying. I've never seen a book store that doesn't let customers open a book before buying.
Online pre-orders?
I'd say that's a case of caveat emptor. If you're willing to buy sight unseen, you're accepting the risk. Now in an extreme case you might be able to go after the publisher or the retailer for fraud. However, the author can still get out of that because of the way sales work.

Of course. You have no legal recourse. Everyone gets that. No one has said that they should be able to sue an author for anything we've talked about.

I've pre-ordered several books by favorite authors. I don't think that makes me a fool.


thejeff wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
I'd say that's a case of caveat emptor. If you're willing to buy sight unseen, you're accepting the risk. Now in an extreme case you might be able to go after the publisher or the retailer for fraud. However, the author can still get out of that because of the way sales work.

Of course. You have no legal recourse. Everyone gets that. No one has said that they should be able to sue an author for anything we've talked about.

I've pre-ordered several books by favorite authors. I don't think that makes me a fool.

If you went to a store and bought a book that was just "ha ha" repeated for 300 pages, you would be a fool. If you pre-ordered it online, then you accepted some risk, BUT you could probably get a refund from the vendor because fraud.


Rynjin wrote:

I'm not bummed. The Golden Compass adaptation was atrocious, much like the Eragon adaptation I wish I could scrub from my memory.

They still owe me a good movie based on both.

I don't care about a good movie version of the Golden Compass. No, what I want is to know whatever happened to that whole "Book of Dust" thing Pullman was supposed to have done for the early 2000s.


If a book was 600 pages of "ha" repeated over and over, and was published for 30 dollars, it's clearly the publishing company who is at fault.

Seriously.

The author clearly is in need of psychological help, his 'submission' was just a cry for it, and the publishing company - whose job, I'll remind, is to read and judge whether or not a work is fit for, you know, publishing - is thoroughly at fault for not seeing that and publishing a piece of crap.

--------
Questionable sanity and horrid publisher decisions aside...

An author can certainly make mistakes, do bad work, and be held 'responsible' - insomuch as that applies - by those who purchase the work. The 'responsibility' of the consumer, then, is to return the book in order to avoid supporting the author's attempt at something you don't like.

If you don't like an author's work, you're going to avoid it in the future.

An author who seeks to make things people will buy will either get this, or quickly be bereft of funds.

An author who, like Rowling, effectively promised to write something is justifiably held to her promise. If, however, she had stated that, instead of seven books, she needed to complete the story within five or eight or something, that's not a mark against her character, so long as she's honest about it.

This is what is meant by 'good-faith effort' - i.e. the only thing that can really be genuinely expected from anyone. To expect more is to ignore all sense of reason or proportion.

That said, I'm sorry to hear about the Knights of Dark Renown - sounds, from what little I can tell, like a case of publisher deadline plus writer's block. Really unfortunate, as I was interested in getting that at some point, and generally like Gemmel a lot.

If it helps, The 8th Dwarf, tell your wife I, Tacticslion, not only love Princess Bride, but also David Gemmell and have never read that book. Clearly my tastes and judgement are exquisite, and Gemmell should thus be pursued outside of that book. :)


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why are we having discussion of buying a book in a ongoing series that just has "HAHAHA" written for 300 pages? That...would never happen, because editors and publishers are not idiots

You might as well lead with an example such "What if reading the first sentence summons a Balor that then eats all my family members in front of me".

Sovereign Court

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MMCJawa wrote:

why are we having discussion of buying a book in a ongoing series that just has "HAHAHA" written for 300 pages? That...would never happen, because editors and publishers are not idiots

You might as well lead with an example such "What if reading the first sentence summons a Balor that then eats all my family members in front of me".

It would be terrifying ... and probably grounds for suing the publishing company for not vetting the material for summoning magic. Definitely a case of Supernatural Criminal Negligence.


600 Pages, MMCJawa. Come on, man. Keep up. :)


I dunno... Aren't balor summonings covered under the Act of God exception?


MMCJawa wrote:

why are we having discussion of buying a book in a ongoing series that just has "HAHAHA" written for 300 pages? That...would never happen, because editors and publishers are not idiots

You might as well lead with an example such "What if reading the first sentence summons a Balor that then eats all my family members in front of me".

What if you're OK with a balor eating your family?


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Sissyl wrote:
I dunno... Aren't balor summonings covered under the Act of God exception?

"Act of God" isn't usually a workable defense to a claim of negligence. You have to be able to show that nothing you did contributed to the event. When I asked you "would the balor have been summoned if you hadn't printed that book," your "no" answer pretty much damns you.

In many senses of the word.

Managing Editor

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GeraintElberion wrote:

How does James feel about books which deliberately mess with reader expectations? Or those that are crafted with incomplete conclusions?

Some people think that Pathfinder Tales *owes* them third-person, past-tense writing. Are they correct?

To speak to the latter: I'm not saying that *all* fan entitlement is valid. If you expect a happy ending, or past tense, or whatever, and an author chooses to do something different, that's totally fine by me. The point is not that everyone gets exactly the book they want or expect, only that if your selling point is "check out this awesome story arc!" rather than "check out this great standalone book!", it's reasonable for fans to expect you to provide what you sold them on, rather than simply a portion of it.

For instance, if we went crazy and decided to stop publishing Iron Gods at the third volume, a lot of people would be justifiably upset. The whole idea of an AP as we've promoted it is that it has a six-volume arc. Could it be continued beyond there? Sure, and we encourage people to do so, but we're always careful to wrap up the main arc in the volumes we publish. Even though each volume is a great adventure on its own, our advertising focuses on the larger story, and thus we have an obligation (in my mind) to provide it.

Now, that doesn't mean anybody should go to jail, or that GRRM owes people refunds if he doesn't finish, or whatever. This isn't about legislation. The discussion of social contract is really just about recognizing *why* fans might feel a certain way, and admitting that there's validity to it, rather than just waving it all aside and claiming those readers (who are the exact people who supported you as an author) are somehow immature, which is what I feel some authors do.

What should we as authors lose if we violate those expectations? Nothing but our good name with readers. But in this business, until you're as big as GRRM, your good name is all you have...

Thanks for the awesome discussion, everyone!

(P.S: Books that mess with reader expectations or have incomplete-feeling conclusions are just fine. I like the "looking off into the distance" endings, and it's fine if we never see what happens after our hobbit protagonist sails off with the elves. If GRRM wants to publish a one-page book that says "And then everyone dies when the Klingons attach King's Landing," that would be fulfilling the social contract, albeit maybe not in *quite* as good faith as it could be. It would also make him a pretty crappy artist, but that's its own issue.)


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James Sutter wrote:


For instance, if we went crazy and decided to stop publishing Iron Gods at the third volume, a lot of people would be justifiably upset. The whole idea of an AP as we've promoted it is that it has a six-volume arc.

Yes, but this is a classic example of failure-by-assumption. As fans, we're not privy to what's going on inside Paizo's walls, nor should we be. If the only reason for your ceasing Iron Gods tomorrow was "going crazy," that's a problem, but I'm also willing to grant that there might be valid business reasons for it.

Just as an example, if top management decides to close down the company,... there goes Iron Gods. If Paizo gets slapped with a plagiarism suit and a cease-and-desist order,... there goes Iron Gods. If Paizo gets bought by Sony and they decide to cut the AP to concentrate on more rules text,... there goes Iron Gods. For that matter, if Iron Gods volume 3 sells ten copies world wide, and you decide to cut your losses,... there goes Iron Gods. The fact that you've promoted a six-volume arc doesn't mean we should expect volume six no matter how much it costs the company.

And this applies to personal reasons as well. If Erik (thinks he) hears the voice of God telling him to radically shift direction -- which is more or less what happened to Dave Sim and the Cerebus comic -- there goes Iron Gods.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
James Sutter wrote:


For instance, if we went crazy and decided to stop publishing Iron Gods at the third volume, a lot of people would be justifiably upset. The whole idea of an AP as we've promoted it is that it has a six-volume arc.

Yes, but this is a classic example of failure-by-assumption. As fans, we're not privy to what's going on inside Paizo's walls, nor should we be. If the only reason for your ceasing Iron Gods tomorrow was "going crazy," that's a problem, but I'm also willing to grant that there might be valid business reasons for it.

Just as an example, if top management decides to close down the company,... there goes Iron Gods. If Paizo gets slapped with a plagiarism suit and a cease-and-desist order,... there goes Iron Gods. If Paizo gets bought by Sony and they decide to cut the AP to concentrate on more rules text,... there goes Iron Gods. For that matter, if Iron Gods volume 3 sells ten copies world wide, and you decide to cut your losses,... there goes Iron Gods. The fact that you've promoted a six-volume arc doesn't mean we should expect volume six no matter how much it costs the company.

And this applies to personal reasons as well. If Erik (thinks he) hears the voice of God telling him to radically shift direction -- which is more or less what happened to Dave Sim and the Cerebus comic -- there goes Iron Gods.

And all of that falls under "good faith effort".

Though I'd actually say Cerebus falls more under "goes crazy". Really serious breakdown. Despite that, he did still follow through on his 300 issues. Even if much of the last part was nigh unreadable.


thejeff wrote:

And all of that falls under "good faith effort".

Well, that makes it easy. If "I don't want to, and I'm the person creating it" is a good faith effort (as it would be if Erik decided to scrap the Iron Gods line) then any author can simply say "I don't want to" at any point.

Problem solved.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:

And all of that falls under "good faith effort".

Well, that makes it easy. If "I don't want to, and I'm the person creating it" is a good faith effort (as it would be if Erik decided to scrap the Iron Gods line) then any author can simply say "I don't want to" at any point.

Problem solved.

I meant to exclude that one, much like Cerebus: Hearing the voice of God telling you to radically shift direction falls under "going crazy", not "good faith effort"

Company shutting down, plagiarism suits, getting bought out, not enough sales, all that falls under "good faith effort".


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thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:

And all of that falls under "good faith effort".

Well, that makes it easy. If "I don't want to, and I'm the person creating it" is a good faith effort (as it would be if Erik decided to scrap the Iron Gods line) then any author can simply say "I don't want to" at any point.

Problem solved.

I meant to exclude that one, much like Cerebus: Hearing the voice of God telling you to radically shift direction falls under "going crazy", not "good faith effort"

Company shutting down, plagiarism suits, getting bought out, not enough sales, all that falls under "good faith effort".

But if it's acceptable for Erik Mona to shut down a storyline because the Return-on-Investment isn't high enough, it's equally acceptable for an author to do the same thing. But remember that "return on investment" is measured in a lot of units besides dollars, including work-life balance and happiness.

"I don't want to write this story, it doesn't make me happy" is a completely valid statement from the point of view of someone who would have to do the actual work. For you to deny him the ability to be happy -- because you are "owed" a story he doesn't want to write -- makes you into an emotional vampire. Similarly, if the author want to write something else, or even learn to play the tuba, because that's a better investment of my time and energy, the author owes the fan nothing except possibly gratitude for the reception of books that have already been written.

And we're back to "I don't want to, and I'm the author" is a good faith reason for not continuing to write. There's a word for trying to make people do things they don't want to, and it's not a nice one.


James Sutter wrote:
To speak to the latter: I'm not saying that *all* fan entitlement is valid. If you expect a happy ending, or past tense, or whatever, and an author chooses to do something different, that's totally fine by me. The point is not that everyone gets exactly the book they want or expect, only that if your selling point is "check out this awesome story arc!" rather than "check out this great standalone book!", it's reasonable for fans to expect you to provide what you sold them on, rather than simply a portion of it.

A key part of being a good writer is being able to surprise the reader. Robert Frost said "No surprise for the writer, no surprise for the reader." Not getting what you expect is par for the course, and a story that doesn't surprise you is probably disappointing. (There are exceptions, as there are with anything.)

I don't equate surprise with betrayal. Surprise is a necessary element. Betrayal is what happens when the writer does not give a good faith effort, or crafts the end of a good story in such a disappointing way that there is no other adequate word to describe it. (Note that it has to be a good story with a bad ending. A story that starts off bad can't betray you, because you already know it's bad, and if you keep reading, that's on you.)

Quote:
For instance, if we went crazy and decided to stop publishing Iron Gods at the third volume, a lot of people would be justifiably upset. The whole idea of an AP as we've promoted it is that it has a six-volume arc. Could it be continued beyond there? Sure, and we encourage people to do so, but we're always careful to wrap up the main arc in the volumes we publish. Even though each volume is a great adventure on its own, our advertising focuses on the larger story, and thus we have an obligation (in my mind) to provide it.

On the other hand, if you guys decided it would be best for the story to wrap it up sooner, that would be understandable. Key words being "wrap it up" and "best for the story."

Quote:
The discussion of social contract is really just about recognizing *why* fans might feel a certain way, and admitting that there's validity to it, rather than just waving it all aside and claiming those readers (who are the exact people who supported you as an author) are somehow immature, which is what I feel some authors do.

Part of the contract is the writer has a responsibility not only to the audience but to the story itself. There is a responsibility to deliver on what was promised. But what is good for the story takes precedence. (And in cases as big as GoT, the good of the story takes precedence even over the writer's personal happiness. Hey, if you don't want that kind of responsibility, don't make the baby.)

While it's frustrating waiting 5 years between GRRM's books, I get that he's prioritizing the good of the story over my frustration. But he has a pacing problem. He could publish 400 pages every couple years instead, maintain the quality of work, and increase good will among his fans. But for some reason he chooses not to. And that's annoying, because we've walked down this road before, and I don't want to do it again. There's a point where it just gets to be Way Too Long and drawn out. People complained about this regarding Lost long before it ended, and Wheel of Time and Dark Tower. At some point, he just needs to stop rambling and get to the end. Preferably in his lifetime.

Quote:
What should we as authors lose if we violate those expectations? Nothing but our good name with readers. But in this business, until you're as big as GRRM, your good name is all you have...

I don't believe anyone is ever too big to have any more than their good name. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. If the ending sucks, he won't be the guy who created one of the best series ever written, he'll be the guy who screwed up one of the best series ever written.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:

And all of that falls under "good faith effort".

Well, that makes it easy. If "I don't want to, and I'm the person creating it" is a good faith effort (as it would be if Erik decided to scrap the Iron Gods line) then any author can simply say "I don't want to" at any point.

Problem solved.

I meant to exclude that one, much like Cerebus: Hearing the voice of God telling you to radically shift direction falls under "going crazy", not "good faith effort"

Company shutting down, plagiarism suits, getting bought out, not enough sales, all that falls under "good faith effort".

But if it's acceptable for Erik Mona to shut down a storyline because the Return-on-Investment isn't high enough, it's equally acceptable for an author to do the same thing. But remember that "return on investment" is measured in a lot of units besides dollars, including work-life balance and happiness.

"I don't want to write this story, it doesn't make me happy" is a completely valid statement from the point of view of someone who would have to do the actual work. For you to deny him the ability to be happy -- because you are "owed" a story he doesn't want to write -- makes you into an emotional vampire. Similarly, if the author want to write something else, or even learn to play the tuba, because that's a better investment of my time and energy, the author owes the fan nothing except possibly gratitude for the reception of books that have already been written.

And we're back to "I don't want to, and I'm the author" is a good faith reason for not continuing to write. There's a word for trying to make people do things they don't want to, and it's not a nice one.

Where "make" means "Will be unhappy with, might say mean things about in fandom and probably won't buy more books from", as opposed to whatever it is you're implying.

If you're an author, or worse, like Erik Mona, running a company and you decide to stop a series in the middle for no better reason than "I don't want to write this story, it doesn't make me happy", you're going to be out of business or out of readers in a big hurry. Because they won't be happy with you.

There's a big difference between that and "This isn't selling. We can't afford to keep it going." One part of which is that obviously, if it isn't selling, you're not going to be disappointing that many people.


Simon Legrande wrote:


Buying that book would make you a fool, not the author. You have opportunities to fully examine the product before paying. I've never seen a book store that doesn't let customers open a book before buying.

But it is possible for the text to deviate so far from whats expected to constitute actual fraud which would require a legally mandated refund. There should be a point where the text deviates far enough from whats expected that the reader can say justifiably say"... What the hell? You suck!". Voting with your dollar is one way of expressing your opinion, but so are reviews and parody videos.


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thejeff wrote:


If you're an author, or worse, like Erik Mona, running a company and you decide to stop a series in the middle for no better reason than "I don't want to write this story, it doesn't make me happy", you're going to be out of business or out of readers in a big hurry. Because they won't be happy with you.

Shrug. If I'm not happy being in the Pathfinder-Publishing business in the first place, it doesn't matter if I'm out of business. If I'm not happy being in the Writing-A-Song-of-Ice-and-Fire business, then going out of business (and into another business) is quite possibly what I'm looking for.

George R. R. Martin is, fortunately, in a position where he can do literally whatever he likes for the rest of his life. I hope that Erik Mona is as well. They've both done very well by their readers. If Mr. Martin or Mr. Mona wants to start a new career writing detective fiction, or composing classical concertos for kazoos, or even standing on the beach watching the waves come in, I wish them well -- despite the fact that I'd miss both of them (I've been a Martin fan since "Sandkings").

Which is to say, George R. R. Martin is not my b*tch. He's writing because he wants to write, and as soon as he no longer wants to write, he can and should stop.

And even a writer who didn't have Martin's fame is still free to stop writing any time he likes and start driving a taxi, if he thinks that will make him happier than putting up with the fans.


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Tacticslion wrote:
If it helps, The 8th Dwarf, tell your wife I, Tacticslion, not only love Princess Bride, but also David Gemmell and have never read that book. Clearly my tastes and judgement are exquisite, and Gemmell should thus be pursued outside of that book. :)

She reads LotR and Princess Bride once a year as well as several Austins, and a Bronte or two.

I actually re read Knights of Dark Renown a few times and mine it's themes for some games... The ending was like getting to cloud city in the Star Wars movie and having George walk on camera and say "ummm not got time to finish - he is his dad, she is his sister (sorry about the eww moment), hand, carbonite, Sarlac, swap out Wookies for Ewoks (cause George has a small person fettish) 2nd Death Star, some redemption for dad and boom.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aranna wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

I suppose not dying halfway through a series is a bit too much to ask.

Douglas Adams, and Frank Herbert I am looking at both of you.

Good luck finding a process server. :)

Hey don't discourage him. If he can find a way to speak with the dead the world will get a LOT wiser.

:)

I doubt it. We make many of the same mistakes they did. If they couldn't teach us in life, they're probably not going to do any better from beyond the pale.

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