Monk, Is there any reason for it


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
slin2678 wrote:
I'm assuming you're referencing Sean's comments in that thread. Is it official because I don't see a FAQ for it?

Sean was the representative of the design team at the time, and those clarifications are official until otherwise stated.


slin2678 wrote:

I'm assuming you're referencing Sean's comments in that thread. Is it official because I don't see a FAQ for it? The rest of the item seems to suggest otherwise.

Besides, why would the item description say "deals normal unarmed damage?" Normal unarmed damage is 1d3 not 1d4. It seems they included that language to account for monk unarmed damage.

Sadly... TOZ is right. The official ruling is that cestus are not really unarmed strikes. It's one of the things that prompted the FoB debacle last year. :/

Also fighting with cestus would be fighting "unarmed" in name only, as you wouldn't be able to kick or headbutt with your cestus.

Sovereign Court

I figure that the cestus still lets you make your unarmed attack piercing. If you want your unarmed damage - your enchantment bonus is based off you AoMF, but it's still handy enough to be able to go piercing that it's worth carrying a basic one.

Lantern Lodge

slin2678 wrote:
I'm assuming you're referencing Sean's comments in that thread. Is it official because I don't see a FAQ for it? The rest of the item seems to suggest otherwise.

TOZ and Lemmy have you covered. In my personal opinion, the FAQ, official rulings not in the FAQ, and need for FAQ on some topics is quite a mess right now. They have Mark working on it though, so I have faith we'll see movement on getting that all cleaned up in the near future. They just need to let the man work. :p


Atarlost wrote:
The monk has better saves than any of the competition bar possibly the warpriest and the unarmed warpriest is not only a god botherer but pretty much restricted to a single god in Golarion and may not have any suitable gods at all in other settings.

Xan Yae and Zuoken in Greyhawk. Heck, even Kord since no Lawful Requirement (barefisted sacred fist of Kord... hell yeah)

Any Deities that sponsor monks could sponsor Sacred Fists (even more since Lawful requirement is not an issue). So I think there are plenty of viable Sacred Fist concepts that are workable.


Robert Carter 58 wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
The monk has better saves than any of the competition bar possibly the warpriest and the unarmed warpriest is not only a god botherer but pretty much restricted to a single god in Golarion and may not have any suitable gods at all in other settings.

Xan Yae and Zuoken in Greyhawk. Heck, even Kord since no Lawful Requirement (barefisted sacred fist of Kord... hell yeah)

Any Deities that sponsor monks could sponsor Sacred Fists (even more since Lawful requirement is not an issue). So I think there are plenty of viable Sacred Fist concepts that are workable.

Monk Saves are one of the big reasons to play a Monk. The Monk can be a very specialized class in one way...the major Mage Killer.

Or at least the one that stands the best chance of surviving some of the do or die spells that get tossed.


GreyWolfLord wrote:


Or at least the one that stands the best chance of surviving some of the do or die spells that get tossed.

I believe the class you are looking for is the Paladin or Barbarian.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Robert Carter 58 wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
The monk has better saves than any of the competition bar possibly the warpriest and the unarmed warpriest is not only a god botherer but pretty much restricted to a single god in Golarion and may not have any suitable gods at all in other settings.

Xan Yae and Zuoken in Greyhawk. Heck, even Kord since no Lawful Requirement (barefisted sacred fist of Kord... hell yeah)

Any Deities that sponsor monks could sponsor Sacred Fists (even more since Lawful requirement is not an issue). So I think there are plenty of viable Sacred Fist concepts that are workable.

Monk Saves are one of the big reasons to play a Monk. The Monk can be a very specialized class in one way...the major Mage Killer.

Or at least the one that stands the best chance of surviving some of the do or die spells that get tossed.

I would point you at the Human Superstitious + Strength Surge + Spell Sunder + Witch Hunter + Eater of Magic + Cord of Stubborn Resolve + Beast totem barbarian for the best Mage hunters. Followed by properly built Paladins, IE no dumped saves and with decent charisma.

Heck with the new Chr to saves feat from the ACG I would say that monks are not even necessarily in the top three for saves anymore, that most likely going to oracles.

I like monks but they require a lot of system mastery to make even acceptable and are in my opinion with the exception of perhaps the Zen Archer in the same boat as rogues when it comes to Decent at some things best at none.

That is why I would love to see a complete re-imagining of the class.


Covent wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Robert Carter 58 wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
The monk has better saves than any of the competition bar possibly the warpriest and the unarmed warpriest is not only a god botherer but pretty much restricted to a single god in Golarion and may not have any suitable gods at all in other settings.

Xan Yae and Zuoken in Greyhawk. Heck, even Kord since no Lawful Requirement (barefisted sacred fist of Kord... hell yeah)

Any Deities that sponsor monks could sponsor Sacred Fists (even more since Lawful requirement is not an issue). So I think there are plenty of viable Sacred Fist concepts that are workable.

Monk Saves are one of the big reasons to play a Monk. The Monk can be a very specialized class in one way...the major Mage Killer.

Or at least the one that stands the best chance of surviving some of the do or die spells that get tossed.

I would point you at the Human Superstitious + Strength Surge + Spell Sunder + Witch Hunter + Eater of Magic + Cord of Stubborn Resolve + Beast totem barbarian for the best Mage hunters. Followed by properly built Paladins, IE no dumped saves and with decent charisma.

Heck with the new Cha to saves feat from the ACG I would say that monks are not even necessarily in the top three for saves anymore, that most likely going to oracles.

I like monks but they require a lot of system mastery to make even acceptable and are in my opinion with the exception of perhaps the Zen Archer in the same boat as rogues when it comes to Decent at some things best at none.

That is why I would love to see a complete re-imagining of the class.

arcane bloodline bloodragers are up there as well in the mage-hunting business (especially crossblooded destined/arcane ones)


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Monk Saves are one of the big reasons to play a Monk. The Monk can be a very specialized class in one way...the major Mage Killer.

I once had a PC monk literally stand in front of my NPC wizard and laugh at him until the wizard used up ALL of his spell slots trying to kill said monk. Then the monk beat him to death. They were both 10th-level.


I always feel that monk suffers because it tries to do without equipment in a game that is balanced around having equipment. And it's a martial class in a game that doesn't support late game martial classes.

It gets all of the whammys. But if you are only playing til level 12, I don't think it's that bad.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:


Also fighting with cestus would be fighting "unarmed" in name only, as you wouldn't be able to kick or headbutt with your cestus.

well someone isn't using their Cestus correctly, and i'm sure it's not me. :P


Melkiador wrote:

I always feel that monk suffers because it tries to do without equipment in a game that is balanced around having equipment. And it's a martial class in a game that doesn't support late game martial classes.

It gets all of the whammys. But if you are only playing til level 12, I don't think it's that bad.

Even then (at low levels) I had a lot of problems every time I rolled monk. It boiled down to, "you only have the ability to be a melee-martial, but you are not as good at it as any 'real' melee-martial class."

Random thought, with little concern of power-balance, if a monk was Full BAB, would that make it good, too good, or still not good enough?


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boring7 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

I always feel that monk suffers because it tries to do without equipment in a game that is balanced around having equipment. And it's a martial class in a game that doesn't support late game martial classes.

It gets all of the whammys. But if you are only playing til level 12, I don't think it's that bad.

Even then (at low levels) I had a lot of problems every time I rolled monk. It boiled down to, "you only have the ability to be a melee-martial, but you are not as good at it as any 'real' melee-martial class."

Random thought, with little concern of power-balance, if a monk was Full BAB, would that make it good, too good, or still not good enough?

It probably wouldn't change anything unfortunately. The Monk is full BAB in many situations that matter. Pretty much if they have troubles without full BAB, they'd still have troubles with full BAB.

But honestly they should, by all means, have full BAB. There isn't much reason why they shouldn't be. They're not casters, and their main role is to fight. It'd be nice to just have the consistency.


that and they have not one, but TWO class abilities that let them pretend to have full BAB (maneuver training and flurry). at that point why not just give them full BAB and put those abilities to use actually granting a BONUS, rather than breaking even.

Scarab Sages

I find it amusing that we simultaneously have one thread declaring monks useless and another thread with people putting monk forward as a favored class for killing casters.


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It LOOKS best for killing casters, but isn't. Like the M-16 LOOKS better than an AK-47 until you try to use it in the muddy swamp.


The Monk lacks any ability to prevent a caster from just picking a different target or leaving the encounter. If the Monk can't be dominated, you just dominate the Fighter and have him kill the Monk.


haha, heck with the ruling that if you sometimes have the ability/stat/ whatever the prereq is, then you count to have the prereq for the feat and it only works while the condition is met. Then "technically" since the Monk counts as having full bab it should be able to pick feats off of full bab, and would only have access to those feats when it having full bab, during flurries and maneuvers.


"For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus."

I'm guessing Paizo forgot this was a thing when they made that ruling.

Either that, or they prioritized Synthesist Summoners over Monks. Could be both, really.


I see the monk/Sacred Fist as a Magus and Gunslinger killer, touch AC that high basically screws Touch Attack Spells and Guns that hit touch AC have to hit an insanely high AC even close range, where they could provoke AoO or get 5-foot stepped to death.

Monk 1/Sacred Fist 1 with a 18 in both Dex and Wis has a touch AC of 22 which is very good for a level 2 character. By 4th they add a +2 total bonus 1 from deflection and 1 from dodge. If they invest Headband and Belt into just Dex and Wis they could make their AC grow very high very quickly.


You can actually make a decent core monk if you use the splat books, but you need pretty good system mastery to make it happen, which is my main problem with the monk and the rogue. They are not useless, but they seem to be "expert" level classes to me.


Wraithstrike I see this comment a lot, can you please explain to me which splat books people keep mentioning.

Scarab Sages

Arachnofiend wrote:
The Monk lacks any ability to prevent a caster from just picking a different target or leaving the encounter. If the Monk can't be dominated, you just dominate the Fighter and have him kill the Monk.

Yes, because a high movement speed to reach the caster so you can put him into a grapple that ignores Freedom of Movement and has its own Dimensional Anchor effect never works.


Incidentally the Tetori is one of the stronger Monk Archetypes.

How does it hold up in campaigns that don't involve medium sized Humanoids though?

@Harrow the optimized Monk will generally include Qinggong, Pummeling Style or Dragon Style, an easy vow, and another archetype such as Flowing, Hungry Ghost, Sohei, Weapon Adept, Zen Archer.

Also high str. Don't dump dex, but it's not a priority compared to Str, Wis, and Con. Also make friends with a Wizard for Mage Armor or carry potions of mage armor. Said Wizard or Cleric can also cast Greater Magic Weapon on your fist and save you the money on a high + amulet of mighty fists. If you still want an amulet of mighty fists I suggest using it to grab enchantments like Keen or the one that D anchors. With Qinggong make sure you replace slow fall for bark skin, it will save you from purchasing an amulet of natural armor.

Sovereign Court

Artanthos wrote:
I find it amusing that we simultaneously have one thread declaring monks useless and another thread with people putting monk forward as a favored class for killing casters.

I think that's mainly because the people ripping on the monk here are mostly ripping into the CRB monk.

The people in the other thread (myself among them) are putting forward monk archetypes as mage hunters. (tetori/manuver master etc)

Sovereign Court

Harrow of Hightower wrote:
Wraithstrike I see this comment a lot, can you please explain to me which splat books people keep mentioning.

You basically need Ultimate Magic since the Quinggong was the stealth buff for the monk.


Harrow of Hightower wrote:
Wraithstrike I see this comment a lot, can you please explain to me which splat books people keep mentioning.

Ultimate combat mostly, IIRC. I started a thread a while back, and people actually had good monk builds with a core monk, but they need the PF hard covers to make it work.

I think the limitations were Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, and the APG. 20 point buy WBL for that level, and 2 traits. No multiclassing. Also IIRC the monk was assumed to be part of a 4 or 5 man party. I forget which. I got distracted by real life and could not continue posting challenges, but I tried to vary them with monsters that used ambush attacks, and monsters such as the bebelith. I forgot what else it was.


Hmm I see. Yes Qinggong Monk is a good archetype. I like the Monk of Four Winds if you are going to level 12, but otherwise its useless.


https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/monk/arche types/everyman-gaming-llc-1/kyuubi-visionary I know its third Party, but since this is the activate Monk thread I wanted to ask if this is any good? Especially with Qinggong. I know the Cha- Save thing is a little stiff though


Harrow of Hightower wrote:
Link I know its third Party, but since this is the activate Monk thread I wanted to ask if this is any good? Especially with Qinggong. I know the Cha- Save thing is a little stiff though

Yes that archetype is basically a straight buff.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Incidentally the Tetori is one of the stronger Monk Archetypes.

How does it hold up in campaigns that don't involve medium sized Humanoids though?

@Harrow the optimized Monk will generally include Qinggong, Pummeling Style or Dragon Style, an easy vow, and another archetype such as Flowing, Hungry Ghost, Sohei, Weapon Adept, Zen Archer.

Also high str. Don't dump dex, but it's not a priority compared to Str, Wis, and Con. Also make friends with a Wizard for Mage Armor or carry potions of mage armor. Said Wizard or Cleric can also cast Greater Magic Weapon on your fist and save you the money on a high + amulet of mighty fists. If you still want an amulet of mighty fists I suggest using it to grab enchantments like Keen or the one that D anchors. With Qinggong make sure you replace slow fall for bark skin, it will save you from purchasing an amulet of natural armor.

agreed on many points here. there's a few ATs that people like to hide behind and say "see? the monk isn't terrible in this specific situation!", these include tetori (but only against appropriate-sized humanoids), zen archer, sohei, and underfoot adept (which can actually trip somewhat effectively).

for someone who doesn't want to play a wannabe ranger or cavalier and isn't into wrestling (hey, some folks just wanna punch people sometimes), once you get the money consider CUTTING OFF YOUR FREAKING ARM to get a clockwork prosthetic. great bonuses, fully enchantable like a weapon with any effect that applies to unarmed strikes (putting it leagues above the AoMF and bodywraps). you're basically just enchanting a more expensive firearm in terms of cost, rather than paying double that for a gimped version with the amulet.

and please note that you literally have to pay an arm and/or a leg to be good at unarmed combat as a monk in pathfinder, or at least free from the money-leech attached to your neck.

also, phase-locking is the enchant you're looking for.


War Scholar
This is another straight buff Third Party. It stacks with a few I am sure, and Abundant Step at lvl 7 is very powerful


Harrow of Hightower wrote:
Hmm I see. Yes Qinggong Monk is a good archetype. I like the Monk of Four Winds if you are going to level 12, but otherwise its useless.

When I said core monk I was not including that archetype because by taking an archetype you are not really using the core monk anymore, but I do think the Qinggong is a good choice.


Harrow of Hightower wrote:

War Scholar

This is another straight buff Third Party. It stacks with a few I am sure, and Abundant Step at lvl 7 is very powerful

If you're gonna use third party materials, then why even use the Monk anyway? There are plenty of Monk "replacement" classes.

At that point from just Dreamscarred Press you have

For ease of reading! wrote:

Stalker- Base Class

Thematically this class is a Monk. You have Ki, can be just as effective unarmed, and have access to mysticism. Depending on choices made you can practice in face smashing martial arts, Use you Ki as a poison to inflict stat damage and other debuffs, or use the Shadow Plane to warp around/become incorporeal/inflict force damage/ect.

Steelfist Commando- Warlord Archetype
Less Mystic and more like "I am a sneaky guy that can smash faces or poke pressure points."

Deadly Fist- Soulknife Archetype
Essentially a Soulknife, except uses empowered Unarmed strikes, flurries, can Hadoken, and has some unique Blade Skills. Also can take Gifted Blade Archetype if you want "Mysticism."

Guru- Akashik Mysteries
More Mystic than smacky. Kind of like Uncle from Jackie Chan Adventures.

Daevik- Akashik Mysteries
Mystically drawn butt whooping powers.

Then you have Rogue Genius games and their Talented Monk. It's a sort of "Pick your own class features" Monk and most similar to Paizo's Monk.

Honestly I'd go with the Stalker as it's an initiator, which is much more fun to play than the usual "I charge. I full attack. I full Attack. Combat over yet? I charge again. Full attack."

Shadow Lodge

I'm confused... Is this a "monks suck" thread? I thought we were past these...

Anyway monks are good; martial artist, sohei, tetori, zen archer, maneuver master, master of many styles, sensi, drunken master and monk of the 4 winds are awesome builds for monks. Then add on quinggong for added flexability.


MoMS is a terrible monk in the long run simply by the loss of flurry and no way to make that difference back up--it's fantastic if you want to dip 2 and never touch monk again though.


TheSideKick wrote:

I'm confused... Is this a "monks suck" thread? I thought we were past these...

Anyway monks are good; martial artist, sohei, tetori, zen archer, maneuver master, master of many styles, sensi, drunken master and monk of the 4 winds are awesome builds for monks. Then add on quinggong for added flexability.

I have my doubts about martial artist. In order for it to really function, you need to sacrifice your swift action every single turn. You also can't use the defensive option AND the offensive option for what replaces the ki pool at level 4 at the same time. And this is all assuming you don't roll badly on the Wisdom check and fail to activate either one.

Dark Archive

Lyra Amary wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


Or at least the one that stands the best chance of surviving some of the do or die spells that get tossed.
I believe the class you are looking for is the Paladin or Barbarian.

Paladins are strong but they have some very glaring weaknesses that other classes(Monks) and class archetypes don't. For generic gameplay, Paladin and monks tend to make the absolute best defensive characters. But when you get into the full gamut of possibilities and start dealing with facing down mage-god, a monk will outshine the paladin pretty much all day. Great saves are truly a boon but you absolutely need more than that. Touch ac, spell resistance, spell sundering, the ability to make skill checks (jump, fly), movement speed, alternate movement modes, etc.

Paladins don't generally have any of these. Later, they can cover a couple of those bases but they are mostly just relying on saves, HP, and hoping the enemy is evil. In the end, a paladin is better suited to facing down a powerful evil outsider with sla's and brutal melee than a pure caster who is prepared to defend himself and kill opposition. Because the paladin will likely die due to being succeptable to all of the additional options the mage has to deal with a target with high saves and a great regular and ff ac.

That very same caster is dead after using his best stuff and everything else to boot vs a monk (most any monks at that).

Arachnofiend wrote:
The Monk lacks any ability to prevent a caster from just picking a different target or leaving the encounter. If the Monk can't be dominated, you just dominate the Fighter and have him kill the Monk.

You say that like it is easy. It's not.

Monks are one of the most defensive classes in the game. That is their strength. It is well understood across many threads and guides that while the typical monk does not one shot all enemies in a single round like all the rest of the classes do, they are the one class if any, that will be the most likely to walk away from the most dangerous of circumstances, winning them, even when every last ally has long since fallen.

The arguments about monks being weak or terrible comes from the issue that they don't often do well in DPR Olympics and here, the ideology is that DPR is 99.9% of what matters. Since monks have a significant penalty to hit compared to everyone else, their DPR is statistically lower. Therefor, the conclusion is weighted heavily towards monks being inferior due to not winning combat on round 2-3 like everybody else.

But they don't die easily against much of anything and you don't have to get all Schroedinger's monk on people to demonstrate their dominating power of survivability. If we were making a tier list for most defensive classes, monks would be tier one as easily as people rate wizard first on regular tier lists.

Dark Archive

boring7 wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

I always feel that monk suffers because it tries to do without equipment in a game that is balanced around having equipment. And it's a martial class in a game that doesn't support late game martial classes.

It gets all of the whammys. But if you are only playing til level 12, I don't think it's that bad.

Even then (at low levels) I had a lot of problems every time I rolled monk. It boiled down to, "you only have the ability to be a melee-martial, but you are not as good at it as any 'real' melee-martial class."

First, let me correct you; Monks are generally not as good 'offensively' (and mostly due to accuracy concerns) as other melee-martials. They are an extremely real martial class, though.

My currently active monk is a controller/tank/supporter.

Last night, we entered a room by breaking through a stone door. Our barbarian triggered a trap beforehand, just outside the door but we did it safely and no one got hurt. This gave the enemies inside time to prepare.

When we entered, there was an undead caster and three ranged enemies supporting him. He dropped a 15*15 foot pit in front of him as a readied action, and an archer does something to extinguish all the light. The next round our arcanist cast light on our barbarian and I activate my halo racial class feature. Then the undead caster casts some spell or uses an ability which effectively fascinates. We all fail our will saves. Every last one of us...including me, the monk.

The next round he beckond us to come closer. We do but make our saves to avoid falling into the pit but we are still fascinated (or whatever the effect was-our arcanist failed his spellcraft, as did our cleric). The caster summons four wolves behind us, leaving us leaving no place to escape. A pit before us and hungry, evil animals behind us. The archers practically destroy our barbarian who then proceeds, with his remaining life to cleave through two wolves and slay them in one shot (rolling nearly max damage for each hit). The cleric casts protection from evil- communal and follows my advice and 5 foot steps in front of Tue barbarian to provide him cover from the brutal ranged assault. Our arcanist fires 4 magic missiles to strike each enemy but he took my toppling spell suggestion and rolled well, knocking all the enemies prone. My monk then makes an acrobatics check and leaps 30 or so feat across the pit, over the undead caster and behind him by using a point of Ki. Then he kicks the prone caster so hard (bullrush) he falls into his own pit and takes substantial damage. The following rounds involved my monk harrying the archers and our arcanist using toppling magic missiles until our barbarian can reach the archers and we slay them together while I give advice to increase his damage and accuracy and provide flanking opportunities.

During one of the earlier rounds, the barbarian failed his will save and walked into the pit and took a lot of damage. But he managed to climb out. I used my turn to bewildering koan the boss to buy us time to recover from the very unfavorable start since the enemies had far too strong of an advantage during the encounters first half. We were honestly thinking it would be a tpk.

The point is that my monk was instrumental and he is low level and deals no damage. Everyones actions were important in that encounter. The toppling magic missiles from the arcanist, the cure serious wounds and cover provided by the cleric, the raging barbarians max damage cleaves and high hp, my monks stuns, koans, excellent skills, ac and Ki powers to keep everything else in check. We worked like a crazy team and won an encounter that was weighted against us at a time where we had all spent more than 2/3 of our resources. Monks can contribute and they can contribute well.

Scarab Sages

Dark Immortal wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
The Monk lacks any ability to prevent a caster from just picking a different target or leaving the encounter. If the Monk can't be dominated, you just dominate the Fighter and have him kill the Monk.

You say that like it is easy. It's not.

Monks are one of the most defensive classes in the game. That is their strength. It is well understood across many threads and guides that while the typical monk does not one shot all enemies in a single round like all the rest of the classes do, they are the one class if any, that will be the...

I was enjoying his argument that monks are weak because they can't stop the bad guys from killing the stronger classes.

/irony


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Artanthos wrote:
Dark Immortal wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
The Monk lacks any ability to prevent a caster from just picking a different target or leaving the encounter. If the Monk can't be dominated, you just dominate the Fighter and have him kill the Monk.

You say that like it is easy. It's not.

Monks are one of the most defensive classes in the game. That is their strength. It is well understood across many threads and guides that while the typical monk does not one shot all enemies in a single round like all the rest of the classes do, they are the one class if any, that will be the...

I was enjoying his argument that monks are weak because they can't stop the bad guys from killing the stronger classes.

/irony

i mostly (if dealing with base monk) just imagine the wizard casting fly and levitating 10 feet of the ground... then I guess he just throws everything he has at it, if he can't kill him then, he just leaves.


Now now, monks can spend a Ki point and jump real high. I don't know exactly how high, but you definitely want to be about 5 ft higher than that.

Unless you want to get grappled in mid air.


Amusingly, the wizard that uses that tactic is a dead man. 9th level and up, the Monk is going to trivialize that distance, and Wizards aren't exactly well-known for having great Fort saves, or CMD scores.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Now now, monks can spend a Ki point and jump real high. I don't know exactly how high, but you definitely want to be about 5 ft higher than that.

Unless you want to get grappled in mid air.

At 9th level, they can easily reach 14-15 feet, and grapple you. At 20th, they can reach upwards of 30 feet, and grapple you.

Edit: That's '14-15 feet from the bottom of their soles to the ground,' so they could still hit you 20 feet in the air.


One of my longest-running campaigns featured a monk that went from 1st - 11th level. He was an awesome character.

And I have to admit to shuddering when I see the terms "build", "tank", "DPS" and the like applied to a real tabletop RPG.


I know the monk can be very good, but yeah you need to have a good system mastery to make good use of it. I wish I knew some good build rules for the Monk. I tend to play Bards over monks.


Artanthos wrote:
Dark Immortal wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
The Monk lacks any ability to prevent a caster from just picking a different target or leaving the encounter. If the Monk can't be dominated, you just dominate the Fighter and have him kill the Monk.

You say that like it is easy. It's not.

Monks are one of the most defensive classes in the game. That is their strength. It is well understood across many threads and guides that while the typical monk does not one shot all enemies in a single round like all the rest of the classes do, they are the one class if any, that will be the...

I was enjoying his argument that monks are weak because they can't stop the bad guys from killing the stronger classes.

/irony

First off, I don't actually think Monks are weak (assuming the availability of archetypes).

Secondly, the Fighter is certainly not stronger than the Monk. Dominating the Fighter instead is an option because the Fighter sucks at everything but DPR, including will saves.

I just think it's misleading to trump up the Monk as this glorious mage killer. The Tetori, yeah, absolutely can get the job done; if you're not a Tetori you're not any better at grappling than anyone else and casters have no incentive to not just go around you and attack enemies with more offense and less defense. A stone wall isn't very effective when it's only five feet wide.


Harrow of Hightower wrote:
I know the monk can be very good, but yeah you need to have a good system mastery to make good use of it. I wish I knew some good build rules for the Monk. I tend to play Bards over monks.

Well hello there, you handsome devil.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Now now, monks can spend a Ki point and jump real high. I don't know exactly how high, but you definitely want to be about 5 ft higher than that.

Unless you want to get grappled in mid air.

you can't attack mid move action...

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