Monk, Is there any reason for it


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
stuff

yeah being born with four arms give you 4 attacks. MWF makes it less hard. don't know where you think the feat gives more attacks, or the belief that we think that anyway.

the point is, they aren't extra to a race with 4 arms. so they simply HAVE those extra attacks, and the feat acts like TWF does for 2 weapons.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

I didn't say anywhere I was attacking with hands, his hands are FULL. or cut off, or otherwise unusable, you have no free hands for any purpose. you still have a main hand and a off-hand attack if you attempt a TWF with weird weapons.

anyway this doesn't change the fact that you do not need to select a weapon for any given hand until you roll the attack for that hand.

In which case, just holding things doesn't actually consume your metaphysical hands in the first place and thus would be rendered moot for the point of this argument.

exactly, so ONLY metaphysical hands count, simply making sure that is clarified.

this comment was originally made in conjunction with the fact that races with 4 arms have 4 metaphysical hands. why? because the bestiary would get a random nerf if not, and so they left it open for the bestiary and 3pp.


Bandw2 wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

I didn't say anywhere I was attacking with hands, his hands are FULL. or cut off, or otherwise unusable, you have no free hands for any purpose. you still have a main hand and a off-hand attack if you attempt a TWF with weird weapons.

anyway this doesn't change the fact that you do not need to select a weapon for any given hand until you roll the attack for that hand.

In which case, just holding things doesn't actually consume your metaphysical hands in the first place and thus would be rendered moot for the point of this argument.

exactly, so ONLY metaphysical hands count, simply making sure that is clarified.

this comment was originally made in conjunction with the fact that races with 4 arms have 4 metaphysical hands. why? because the bestiary would get a random nerf if not, and so they left it open for the bestiary and 3pp.

But it doesn't matter how many metaphysical hands you have, because there is no rule anywhere that states extra hands, metaphysical or otherwise gives you extra attacks..

And seeing as how you just admitted the feat multi weapon fighting does not do such, there is no rule at all that will give you extra attacks beyond a second weapon.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Until that is thoroughly dealt with, their is no basis beyond the bestiary to even surmise that you get extra attacks for extra limbs.

which just so happens to be the only Paizo product that has races with 3 or more arms naturally...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

I didn't say anywhere I was attacking with hands, his hands are FULL. or cut off, or otherwise unusable, you have no free hands for any purpose. you still have a main hand and a off-hand attack if you attempt a TWF with weird weapons.

anyway this doesn't change the fact that you do not need to select a weapon for any given hand until you roll the attack for that hand.

In which case, just holding things doesn't actually consume your metaphysical hands in the first place and thus would be rendered moot for the point of this argument.

exactly, so ONLY metaphysical hands count, simply making sure that is clarified.

this comment was originally made in conjunction with the fact that races with 4 arms have 4 metaphysical hands. why? because the bestiary would get a random nerf if not, and so they left it open for the bestiary and 3pp.

But it doesn't matter how many metaphysical hands you have, because there is no rule anywhere that states extra hands, metaphysical or otherwise gives you extra.

And seeing as how you just admitted the feat does not do such, there is no rule at all that will give you extra attacks beyond a second weapon.

the difference between you and me is I know there's more than the letter of the law and you don't.

The book is written with 2 hands in mind, and thus by your posits, several bestiary entries are breaking the game's rules. Nothing in their entries says they gain extra off-hand attacks or ignore them, they simply have them.

I also, don't really understand why the feat is brought up at all, even the TWF feats, they don't change the base rules just reduce modifers.

basically, I posit that the designer's do not post entities in their own work that purposefully break game rules without a specific change to those rules. In essence, the rules exist, but they are not written down, why? no reason other than to save space. you can either run with exactly as written or run with what the designer's are using. the two aren't always the same. Any more discussion on this subject and derailment of the thread is pointless, so let's just be on our merry ways.


Bandw2 wrote:

the difference between you and me is I know there's more than the letter of the law and you don't.

The book is written with 2 hands in mind, and thus by your posits, several bestiary entries are breaking the game's rules. Nothing in their entries says they gain extra off-hand attacks or ignore them, they simply have them.

I also, don't really understand why the feat is brought up at all, even the TWF feats, they don't change the base rules just reduce modifers.

basically, I posit that the designer's do not post entities in their own work that purposefully break game rules without a specific change to those rules. In essence, the rules exist, but they are not written down, why? no reason other than to save space. you can either run with exactly as written or run with what the designer's are using. the two aren't always the same. Any more discussion on this subject and derailment of the thread is pointless, so let's just be on our merry ways.

That's probably because this is a permissive game, not a restrictive one. Unless you have a power explicitly saying you can do something, you cannot do it.

Fair enough, have a wonderful night.


Multiweapon Fighting does not grant extra attacks. It reduces the penalty on extra attacks you could already make if you qualified for the feat.

As examples, I submit Vrolikai, Marilith, Lhaksharut, Mudra Skeleton, and Upasunda. They all get multiple off-hand attacks with nothing granting them except, you know, having extra arms/hands.

Kasatha get 1 main hand and 3 off-hand, but have no way of improving that (no Improved/Greater Multiweapon Fighting, and the Two Weapon Fighting versions explicitly say only one more attack). It has no effect on its monkiness, because Flurry is very specific in how many attacks you get and without flurry you're swinging with worse BAB. It makes a nice Fighter (Brawler) though.

Which I suppose just brings us back to anything a monk can use someone else can use better.


Yep, except maybe be a vanilla-race martial with Spell Resistance. Maybe.

Shame, too, I still like the monk's idioms, but you're never gonna see the good (Su) and (Ex) abilities before you get killed by not being as good at surviving as a different class/combo.

Lantern Lodge

To answer the question of "Is there any reason to play a monk?", I think you just need to think about the root reason of why people play this game to begin with: to have fun. For some people, the monk is fun (for example, it is my favorite class). Everyone has fun in different ways through different aspects of this game, which is as it should be in my opinion.

Now mechanically speaking? Sacred fist is now almost certainly the mechanically strongest of the "monkly" roles. I personally would run a Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 18/Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2.

But that said, let's look at the primary reasons different people have different opinions of the monk. I consider these points to be the most powerful schools of thought for differing opinions:

1). Varying degrees of system mastery, or lack there of.
2). Varying degrees of knowledge of the Monk class, in particular what combination of feats/items/ect. best compliment it.
3). Varying degrees of knowledge of less well known feats and magic items, as well as varying levels of access to those things for the particular game and/or GM you are playing with.

That said, I personally enjoy more options. I am a builder at heart, and that is just my fancy. This Monk I am about to post is my current favorite no-splash build, and it uses about a dozen different sources to build it (all official Paizo products, however). It is pretty much maximally optimized, including taking advantage of timeless body to gain mental ability boosts without penalties from age. It is a 20 point buy at base, and if you were to ignore the timeless body cheese, it's ability scores would instead be Str 11, Dex 34, Con 20, Int 15, Wis 28, Cha 7 - and it would lose 20 skill points. Not a huge decrease overall.

Venerable Aasimar (Plumekith) Monk (Ki Mystic, Qinggong Monk) 20; AL LG
Medium Outsider (native)
Init +23; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +48

DEFENSE
AC 58 (+12 Dex, +11 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 insight, +2 luck), touch 50, flat-footed 45
hp 223 (20d8+120)
Fort +29, Ref +35, Will +34; +2 vs. death effects, energy drain, necromancy spells and effects, and negative energy
Defensive Abilities improved evasion; Resist negative energy 5

OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee +4 agile unarmed strike +36/+31/+26 (4d8+16/19-20 x2) or
Melee +4 agile unarmed strike +39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24 (4d8+16/19-20 x2) with flurry of blows
Ranged n/a
Special Attacks cold ice strike (DC 31; 2 ki), flurry of blows, quivering palm (1/day, DC 31), scorching ray (1 ki), stunning fist (20/day, DC 31)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +20)
1/day- see invisibility

STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 34, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 32, Cha 10
Base Atk +15; CMB +36 (+43 trip, +45 disarm); CMD 67 (69 vs. grapple, and reposition; 71 vs. disarm and trip; additional +5 when using flurry of blows)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Style Master, Crane Style, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Piranha Strike, Pummeling Charge, Pummeling Style, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits Defensive Strategist, Fate's Favored
Skills Acrobatics +23 (+57 when jumping), Climb +9, Diplomacy +25, Escape Artist +24, Heal +17, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (history) +15, Knowledge (nature) +15, Knowledge (planes) +15, Knowledge (religion) +15, Linguistics +20, Perception +48, Sense Motive +47, Stealth +40, Survival +17, Swim +9, Use Magic Device +25
SQ abundant step (1 ki), barkskin (1 ki), deathless spirit, empty body (2 ki), fast movement, ki mystic, ki pool (23 points, adamantine, cold iron, lawful, magic, silver), maneuver training, mystic insight (1 ki), mystic persistence (1 ki, plus 1 ki per round), mystic prescience, mystic visions (1 ki), timeless body, truespeaker, wholeness of body (1 ki)
Languages Aklo, Ancient Osiriani, Aquan, Auran, Azlanti, Celestial, Cyclops, Draconic, Giant, Ignan, Jistka, Nagaji, Samsaran, Senzar, Sphinx, Sylvan, Taldane (Common), Tekritanin, Tengu, Terran, Thassilonian, Tien, Undercommon, Vanaran, Wayang
Combat Gear scroll of antimagic field, scroll of fly x2, scroll of freedom of movement, scroll of heal, staff of minor arcana, wand of lead blades (50 charges), wand of obscuring mist (50 charges); Other Gear +4 courageous dueling cestus, +4 agile amulet of mighty fists, belt of physical might +6 (Dex, Con), boots of speed, bracers of armor +8, cloak of resistance +5, eyes of the eagle, headband of inspired wisdom +6, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, 2 cracked pale green prism ioun stones (attack rolls and saving throws), cracked magneta prism ioun stone (Sense Motive), dark blue rhomboid ioun stone, flawed pale green prism ioun stone, pale blue rhomboid ioun stone, scarlet and blue sphere ioun stone (grants ranks in Diplomacy), jingasa of the fortunate soldier, prayer wheel of ethical strength, righteous medal of agility, righteous medal of valor, ring of ki mastery (storing 2 ki), ring of protection +5, rod of balance, stone of good luck, stonefist gloves, wayfinder, 145 gp
Ioun Stones Note The pale blue rhomboid ioun stone is slotted into Monk's wayfinder. All other ioun stones are implanted into his body.
Manuals and Tomes Monk has read a manual of quickness of action +5 and a tome of understanding +5.

Note that the above stat block does not include any of the following:

Barkskin: 1 ki, 3 hours and 20 minutes duration, +5 natural armor
Combat Expertise: -6 to hit, +6 dodge bonus to AC and CMD
Fighting Defensively: -2 to hit, +6 dodge bonus to AC and CMD
Ki Dodge: 1 ki, swift action, +4 dodge bonus to AC and CMD
Shield: 1 charge of staff, 8 minute duration, +4 shield bonus to AC

Lead Blades: 1 charge of wand, 1 minute duration, increase unarmed damage to 6d8
Piranha Strike: -6 to hit, +12 damage

Boots of Speed: 10 rounds/day, free action, +1 on attack rolls, AC, CMD, reflex saves, and 1 additional attack at +40

Disclaimer: I am not saying monks are the best class, the strongest class, or anything similar. Only that you can make a very strong one if you possess the correct knowledge of how to build one. You also build stronger overall once you abandon the monk class at 15th level and begin to splash in other gems. I left this one full monk for purposes of class purity for discussion.


Lormyr wrote:
*interesting stuff*

if we're posting monk builds i could dig a few up from my thread.

"actually decent unarmed/tripper"

Spoiler:
dual-talent human monk (underfoot adept/qinggong) 20
* - FCB spent on 5 ki points
vows of silence, truth, and fasting taken.

stats
START: str 16 (5+2), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 11 (1), wis 16 (5+2), cha 9 (-1)
FINISH: str 30, dex 24, con 20, int 13, wis 26, cha 11
+5 str (level), +6 str/dex/con/wis, +2 int/cha (gear), +5 str, +4 dex/wis (book/wish)

traits: quan martial artist (+1 unarmed damage) / candidate for perfection (+1 attack on unarmed AoO's)

ki pool: 33 (10 level + 8 WIS + 5 FCB + 10 vows)

feats:
1 - racial heritage (halfling), improved trip*
2* - combat reflexes
3 - ki throw
5 - enhanced ki throw
6* - ???
7 - vicious stomp
9 - combat expertise
10* - improved critical (unarmed strike)
11 - greater trip
13 - dimensional agility
14* - ???
15 - dimensional assault
17 - dimensional dervish
18* - ???
19 - dimensional savant

* - monk bonus feats

GEAR:
weapon - +5 holy(2) courageous(1) fortuitous(1) menacing(1) clockwork prosthetic arm
shield - N/A
armor - N/A

head - Tri-Faced Helmet (+4 perception (enhancement), immunity to flanking, 360 view)
headband - +6 Headband of Wisdom
eyes - Lens of Detection (+5 perception (competence), +5 survival when tracking (competence))
neck - +5 Amulet of Natural Armor
shoulders - Cloak of Resistance (+5 all saves (resistance))
wrist - +8 bracers of armor
hands - ???
body - ???
chest - bane baldric (+2 atk, +2d6 dmg, swift action (5rd/day))
belt - +6 Belt of Physical perfection
feet - ???
ring - Ring of Protection (+5 AC (deflection))
ring - ???
slotless - clockwork prosthetics (arm x2, leg x2), pale green prism ioun stone (+1 atk/saves/skills/ability checks, competence), flawed pale green prism ioun stone (+1 attack/saves/skills/ability checks, morale (+3 w/ courageous)), wayfinder-slotted opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (unarmed strike) (+1 atk, grants WF), blus and scarlet sphere ioun stone (+2 int, enhancement), pink-and-green sphere ioun stone (+2 cha, enhancement)

.
QINGGONG TRADES:
slow fall (4th) -> barkskin (1 ki)
wholeness of body (7th) -> gaseous form (1 ki) or scorching ray (2 ki) or true strike (1 ki)
diamond body (11th) -> ki leech (0 ki (!!!))
quivering palm (15th) -> blood crow strike (2 ki)
timeless body (17th) -> penetrating strike (2 ki)
tongue of the sun and moon (17th) -> ???
empty body (19th) -> ???
perfect self (20th) -> ???

TRIPS AS [size (level, +CMB/CMD bonus)]:
medium -> large (4, +1) -> huge (8, +2) -> gargantuan (12, +4) -> colossal (16, +8) -> colossal+ (20, +???)

BOILED DOWN:
BAB: 15/10/5 (+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 flurry+ki attack+haste)
Attack: +42/+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27 (20* bab, +10 strength, +5 enhancement, +2 haste, +1 WF, +1 competence, +3 morale (courageous), +2 bane, -2 TWF) - +1 trait on unarmed AoO's, +4 flank (menacing+DDSavant *2nd attack onward*), +4 if enemy is prone.
CMB (trip)*: 56 (20* BAB, +10 strength, +8 size, +4 feats, +5 enhancement, +2 haste, +1 WF, +1 competence, +3 morale (courageous), +2 bane, -2 TWF) - +1 trait on AoO's.
Absolute best case attack:
+56(trip+EKT)/+46(GT)/+41(FE)/+46(VS)/+50/+50/+50/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36
Damage: ~41 avg (2d10 base, +2d6 holy, +2d6 bane, +10 strength, +5 enhancement, +1 trait)
AC: 49 (10 + 7 dex +13 monk +8 armor +5 natural +5 deflect +1 haste)
Saves (f/r/w): 26/29/29 (12/12/12 class, 5/7/8 stats, 5/5/5 cloak, 0/1/0 haste, 4/4/4 stone)

NOTES:
Spoiler:

passive +8 vs bullrush/trip, +10 vs disarm (anything in his hand, +20 if held in both), and tripled lift/carry limits from his (clockwork) prosthesis.

.
USUAL ROUTINE:
IF ADJACENT: Flurry someone. make the first hit as a trip (enhanced ki throw to deal unarmed damage as well as trip), greater trip AoO, fortuitous enchant AoO, vicious stomp AoO, rest of flurry with prone bonus.

absolute best-case attack routine:
+56(trip+EKT)/+46(GT)/+41(FE)/+46(VS)/+50/+50/+50/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36

IF NOT ADJACENT: close and trip (enhanced ki throw) to deal unarmed damage. greater trip AoO, fortuitous enchant AoO, vicious stomp AoO

if they try to get up, AoO (trip) them, repeat the above (sans fortuitous, which is only 1/round).

due to underfoot adept's effective size increases (you're counted as gargantuan at 12th and colossal at 16th), the only things you have difficulty tripping are things with MORE than 6 legs (due to the +4 trip CMD for each set--things with less you can eat the penalty and still be fine) and things that outright cant be tripped (flying enemies, oozes, swarms, etc.)

i'm tempted to make a dex-centric one with agile maneuvers/panther style/greater trip/vicious stomp/combat reflexes/fortuitous enchant for boatloads of AoO hilarity.

Silver Crusade

I've been playing with a monk build for PFS (so only built to level 11). If other classes are better at unarmed combat, then I'm going to turn the tides and have a monk build that power attacks with a 2-handed weapon and do some decent damage. His concept is an unarmored samurai.

Toyotomi Ichiro:
Toyotomi Ichiro
Human (dual-talented) Monk (Qinggong Sohei) 10/Sorcerer (Wildblooded Empyreal) 1
Medium, Humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses ; Perception +19

DEFENSE
AC 36 (+4 Armor, +4 Shield, +3 Dex, +1 Defl, +4 NA, +1 Dodge, +1 luck, +8 insight ), touch 24, flat-footed 32
hp 111 (10d8+30 + 1d6+3 + 11 toughness + 10 favored)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +16
Defensive Abilities improved evasion

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 keen nodachi (flurry power attack) +15/+15/+10/+10 (1d10+18, 15-20/x2)
Ranged light crossbow +10 (1d8, 19-20/x2)
Special Attacks scorching ray (3 rays, 2ki) +10 (4d6, x2)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +10)
1 ki - barkskin +4 (100 min)
Spells (CL 3rd; concentration +8)
1st (5/day) - Enlarge Person, Shield
0 - Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Light, Message

STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 20, Cha 7
BAB +7; CMB +16 (+18 trip); CMD 37
Feats/Class Abilities
1 Pummeling Style
M1 Dodge, flurry of blows, devoted guardian, improved unarmed strike
S1 bloodline power (heavenly fire), cantrips, eschew materials
3 Power Attack
M2 Combat Reflexes, evasion
M3 maneuver training, still mind (replaced with vow of truth)
5 Toughness
M4 ki pool (magic), ki weapon +1, ac +1
M5 high jump (replaced with qinggong barkskin +2)
7 Weapon Focus (nodachi)
M6 Improved Trip, weapon training (polearms), barkskin +3
M7 ki pool (cold iron/silver), wholeness of body (replaced with qinggong scorching ray)
9 Pummeling Charge
M8 ac +2, improved flurry of blows, ki weapon +2
M9 improved evasion, barkskin +4
11 ? Suggestions welcome
M10 Medusa's Wrath, ki pool (lawful)

Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +10, Heal +11, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (history) +3, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +19, Sense Motive +9, Swim +10, Use Magic Device +11
Gear (just basic gear, left gold for extra stuff like ioun stones and other wondrous items)
Belt - Physical Perfection +2 16,000 gp
Body - Monk's Robe 13,000 gp
Head - Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier 5,000 gp
Headband - Inspired Wisdom +4 16,000 gp
Ring 1 - Protection +1 2000 gp
Shoulders - Cloak of Resistence +2 4000 gp
Other:
Rod of Metamagic Extend, Lesser 3000 gp
Page of Spell Knowledge (Mage Armor) 1000gp
+2 Keen Nodachi 18,360 gp
Misc equipment (Monk kit, 2 x alchemist fire, 2 x alkali flask, light crossbow, cold iron cestus, etc) 124 gp 7 sp 1 cp
Gold remaining 3515 gp 2 sp 9 cp

With pummeling style, 1 confirmed crit means all other hits are crits. At level 11, with assumed haste (only a roll of 3 required to cast from scroll) and enlarged, Ichiro can coordinate with teammates to get a target stunned, staggered, etc to trigger Medusa's Strike so:

with Medusa's Strike, ki weapon +2, enlarged person:
+17/+17/+17/+11/+11/+12/+12 vs AC 29 (Paizo Monster Creation table level +3 was the guideline I used to determine vs AC)
damage: 2d8+21 nodachi and 2d8+13 unarmed strike cold iron cestus
Chance for 1 hit to be a confirmed critical: 55.4%
Change for 1 hit: 94.4%
Average damage per round vs AC 30: 248.21 (at least 2 hits are unarmed)
Max damage per round (all hit & crit): 486

This is a viable build even at lower levels. Here are the average dpr/chance to confirm crit at the following levels. Keep in mind one confirmed crit means all hits are crits.
11 (vs AC 29): 248.21/55.4% (haste, ki weapon, medusa's wrath) 7 attacks (nodachi 3 full/2 -5 cold iron cestus 2 full) (same numbers as level 9 without Medusa's Wrath)
9 (vs AC 27): 188.11/40.4% (haste, ki weapon) 5 attacks (3 full/2 -5)
7 (vs AC 24): 150.97/41.4% (haste and ki for extra attack) 5 attacks (4 full/1 -5)
5 (vs AC 21): 74.45/13.3% (haste and ki for extra attack)

chance to confirm crit formula:
All done in excel. I'm no statistician or mathematician so please let me know if there is an easier way to calc this. lol.

For level 11 -
AB54: target AC = 29
G55: to hit = 17
T57: crit threat % = 30%
V57: # of full attacks = 5
W57: # of 2nd iteration attacks = 2
X57: # of 3rd iteration attacks = 0

Confirm crit chance on a full attack:
=1-(POWER(1-(IF(AB54-G55>19,0.05,IF(AB54-G55<2,0.95,1-((AB54-G55-1)/2 0)))*IF(AB54-G55<=1+((1-T57)*20),T57,IF(AB54-G55>19,0.05,1-((AB54-G55 -1)/20 )))),V57)*(POWER(1-(IF(AB54-G55+5>19,0.05,IF(AB54-G55+5<2,0.95,1-((AB 54-G55+4)/20)))*IF(AB54-G55+5<=1+((1-T57)*20),T57,IF(AB54-G55+5>19,0. 05,1-((AB54-G55+4)/20 )))),W57))*(POWER(1-(IF(AB54-G55+10>19,0.05,IF(AB54-G55+10<2,0.95,1-( (AB54-G55+9)/20)))*IF(AB54-G55+10<=1+((1-T57)*20),T57,IF(AB54-G55+10> 19,0.05,1-((AB54-G55+9)/20 )))),X57)))


No offense but whats his AC at lower level. Looks like you're getting all your AC from wands, barkskin etc.

At level 1 it appears you have a Dex of 14 and Wis of 16. Meaning outta the gates you'd be a front liner with an AC 15 and 10 HP. Don't get me wrong, it stacks up at higher levels but you're gonna be really vulnerable at lower levels.

Silver Crusade

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

No offense but whats his AC at lower level. Looks like you're getting all your AC from wands, barkskin etc.

At level 1 it appears you have a Dex of 14 and Wis of 16. Meaning outta the gates you'd be a front liner with an AC 15 and 10 HP. Don't get me wrong, it stacks up at higher levels but you're gonna be really vulnerable at lower levels.

No offense at all. I want all you knowledgeable folks to sharpshoot this build.

Good question. No wands are necessary as the sorcerer level allows for all casting.

At lower levels, he'll have mage armor for 3 hours (Magical Knack trait), Shield for 3 min, and Enlarge Person for 3 min. Once I can afford the Extend Rod, everything will be doubled.

Level 1 AC: 16 HP: 11. I'm going with Str 16 +2 (human), Dex 14, Con 14, and Wis 14 +2 (human) then rebuild before hitting second level for Str 17 +2 (human), Dex 13, Con 14 with same Wis.

Level 2 AC: 23 HP: 17. Mage Armor and Shield will be easy. Page of Spell Knowledge is only 1000 gp so I can afford that. First round, swift action to go into Pummel Style and then cast enlarge person or shield depending on enemy threat. If combat is expected and I'm able to prep, then I can spend 1st round charging or getting into position to full attack in round 2. This will be the plan throughout his career, with the exception of charging to trip with Improved Trip at level 7 and Pummeling Charge starting level 9.

3 AC: 23 HP: 25
5 AC 25 HP: 46 (headband +2 to make Wis 18)
7 AC 29 HP: 64 (barkskin 60 min, ring +1)
9 AC 32 HP: 91 (jingasa)

If hurting, could always use ki for +4 dodge instead of extra attack.

Keep comments coming. Would definitely accept advice to improve build.


Ah fair enough, I don't usually take magical knack into account as its not PFS legal last I checked.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Ah fair enough, I don't usually take magical knack into account as its not PFS legal last I checked.

That changed some time ago, it is now legal.

Silver Crusade

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Ah fair enough, I don't usually take magical knack into account as its not PFS legal last I checked.

Magical Knack is legal AFAIK. It's not listed as restricted on Paizo Additional Resources.

Quote:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Campaign

Refer to page 10 in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play for rules on utilizing character retraining.
Note: Race traits are only available for characters of the associated race. Religion traits are only available for characters of the associated religion.
Traits: all traits listed on pages 51-64 are legal for play except corpse cannibal, hedge magician, natural-born leader, rich parents, and unblemished barrel.


Oh wonderful, back when I started it was illegal and never bothered to look again lol. :P

Silver Crusade

AndIMustMask wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
*interesting stuff*

if we're posting monk builds i could dig a few up from my thread.

"actually decent unarmed/tripper"** spoiler omitted **...

I really like the Dimensional feat chain as well as the Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp AoO combo. Wish PFS goes up higher levels so I can play with it.

Seems really fun to play.


I do have a question
What is better?
Flurry of Blows
Or a Four Armed attack (Attacking four times)

Also.. how would that work at 6/1 BAB?

Silver Crusade

Lormyr wrote:

To answer the question of "Is there any reason to play a monk?", I think you just need to think about the root reason of why people play this game to begin with: to have fun. For some people, the monk is fun (for example, it is my favorite class). Everyone has fun in different ways through different aspects of this game, which is as it should be in my opinion.

Now mechanically speaking? Sacred fist is now almost certainly the mechanically strongest of the "monkly" roles. I personally would run a Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 18/Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2.

But that said, let's look at the primary reasons different people have different opinions of the monk. I consider these points to be the most powerful schools of thought for differing opinions:

1). Varying degrees of system mastery, or lack there of.
2). Varying degrees of knowledge of the Monk class, in particular what combination of feats/items/ect. best compliment it.
3). Varying degrees of knowledge of less well known feats and magic items, as well as varying levels of access to those things for the particular game and/or GM you are playing with.

That said, I personally enjoy more options. I am a builder at heart, and that is just my fancy. This Monk I am about to post is my current favorite no-splash build, and it uses about a dozen different sources to build it (all official Paizo products, however). It is pretty much maximally optimized, including taking advantage of timeless body to gain mental ability boosts without penalties from age. It is a 20 point buy at base, and if you were to ignore the timeless body cheese, it's ability scores would instead be Str 11, Dex 34, Con 20, Int 15, Wis 28, Cha 7 - and it would lose 20 skill points. Not a huge decrease overall.

Venerable Aasimar (Plumekith) Monk (Ki Mystic, Qinggong Monk) 20; AL LG
Medium Outsider (native)
Init +23; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +48

DEFENSE
AC 58 (+12 Dex, +11 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +4 insight, +2 luck),...

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the +4 cestus and +4 amulet of mighty fists would stack since they're both enhancement bonuses. When attacking, you can only choose to use the bonuses (to include magic properties) from either the cestus or amulet but not both.

Silver Crusade

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:

I do have a question

What is better?
Flurry of Blows
Or a Four Armed attack (Attacking four times)

Also.. how would that work at 6/1 BAB?

I really have no idea how 4 armed attacks would work because that's usually a monster quality. Do they count as natural? I think the only way you can attack with each arm is if they're natural weapons and count as secondary attacks which is a -5 penalty without feats. If you wield weapons, then you only get your normal amount of attacks.


slin2678 wrote:
He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:

I do have a question

What is better?
Flurry of Blows
Or a Four Armed attack (Attacking four times)

Also.. how would that work at 6/1 BAB?

I really have no idea how 4 armed attacks would work because that's usually a monster quality. Do they count as natural? I think the only way you can attack with each arm is if they're natural weapons and count as secondary attacks which is a -5 penalty without feats. If you wield weapons, then you only get your normal amount of attacks.

Kasatha have four arms, they are playable, they get one primary hand and 3 off hands. Also taking the Multiweapon Fighting feat reduces their penalties from -6/-10/-10/-10 which is what they would start at. Dropping it to -4/-4/-4/-4. Of course if allowed to use Light these reduce to -2/-2/-2/-2 with unarmed.

Now if you get all four attacks at level 1 (Which it implies you do) when you get to the BAB of 6/1 do you get four attacks using the 6 as the base number, and then another four with the 1 as the base number before penalties?

If this is the case should you ever even Flurry?

Silver Crusade

That is interesting but that's a heavy investment in weapons. You'll need 4 enchanted weapons, which gets pretty expensive. 4 regular +1 weapons will cost min 9200 gp and that's not counting the cost of the weapon itself. For a cheaper cost, I have my +1 keen nodachi and flurrying for 4 attacks a round at 7th level. A Kasatha might get more attacks but I'll hit more and get more crits so probably end up doing more damage in the end.

I can run the numbers to see.

So at BAB 6, would the attack iteration be +4/+4/+4/+4/-1/-1/-1/-1?


I do believe so.

Well true, but if you focus on something that crits easily, such as a Rapier, Kukri, scimitar. Take Improved Critical and you will be criting more often then not. Yes this would be at level 11 but at that point your attacking 8 times at a +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+/+1 and criting at 15-20.

And that is not counting enchanted weapons.

Silver Crusade

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:

I do believe so.

Well true, but if you focus on something that crits easily, such as a Rapier, Kukri, scimitar. Take Improved Critical and you will be criting more often then not. Yes this would be at level 11 but at that point your attacking 8 times at a +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+/+1 and criting at 15-20.

And that is not counting enchanted weapons.

Actually, by level 11 you should get the third iterative as I'm assuming you would go with a martial class rather than monk with this concept. Also, your secondary attacks don't get iteratives as I just read the multiweapon fighting feat (treats just like two-weapon fighting) so you'll need to take the improved and greater feats to get more attacks.

So at 11th, it would be.

+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/-1

At 6th, it would be
+4/+4/+4/+4/-1


slin2678 wrote:
He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:

I do believe so.

Well true, but if you focus on something that crits easily, such as a Rapier, Kukri, scimitar. Take Improved Critical and you will be criting more often then not. Yes this would be at level 11 but at that point your attacking 8 times at a +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+/+1 and criting at 15-20.

And that is not counting enchanted weapons.

Actually, by level 11 you should get the third iterative as I'm assuming you would go with a martial class rather than monk with this concept. Also, your secondary attacks don't get iteratives as I just read the multiweapon fighting feat (treats just like two-weapon fighting) so you'll need to take the improved and greater feats to get more attacks.

So at 11th, it would be.

+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/-1

At 6th, it would be
+4/+4/+4/+4/-1

True a full BAB class like Brawler. As I said. You get to treat your attacks like Two Weapon fighting, except you get a total of 3 off hands rather then the normal 1. (This is a special rule due to the special case). As far as Multiweapon, it replaces Two-Weapon Fighting, and it is mostly only useful to reduce the penalties of taking off hand attacks. -6/-10 is the normal for primary and off hand. Of course the Kasatha would be -6/-10/-10/-10 for all four attacks. With Multi weapon it becomes as listed above. Two weapon would make it -2/-2/-10/-10 for all four punches.

Silver Crusade

Ok. So at 11th level fighter, assuming 4 +1 scimitars along with the improved critical feat and everything else same as Ichiro.

Weapon Training +2
Weapon Focus +1 hit
Weapon Specialization +2 dmg
Greater Weapon Focus +1 hit
Multiweapon fighting
Improved Critical

No power attack (what's the point with light weapon) but hasted to keep consistent with Ichiro.

To Hit +20 = 11 (BAB) + 6 (Str) + 2 (Weapon focus) + 1 (Enhancement) + 2 (Weapon Training) - 2 (Multiweapon fighting)

+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10

+1 Scimitar 1d8+11, 15-20/x2 6 (Str) + 1 (Enhancement) + 2 (Weapon Training) + 2 (Weapon Specialization)
Average Damage per round = 180.27
Chance for one confirmed crit = 67.2%

Enlarged:
+1 Scimitar 2d6+12, 15-20/x2 7 (Str) + 1 (Enhancement) + 2 (Weapon Training) + 2 (Weapon Specialization)
Average Damage per round = 220.98
Chance for one confirmed crit = 67.2%

Keeps pace with Ichiro but still slightly below. Advantage is higher to hit so will be more relevant against higher AC targets. For example, set to:

AC 32
Multiweapon: 195.69
Ichiro: 179.37

AC 34
Multiweapon: 167.69
Ichiro: 137.97

EDIT: I just realized I used the Pummel Style calcs so add Improved Unarmed Strike and Pummel Style to the list of feats the fighter took. He should have been able to qualify for it after level 6. That's still only 8 of the 12 feats an 11th level fighter gets so shouldn't be a problem.

Lantern Lodge

slin2678 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the +4 cestus and +4 amulet of mighty fists would stack since they're both enhancement bonuses. When attacking, you can only choose to use the bonuses (to include magic properties) from either the cestus or amulet but not both.

You are correct. The cestus exists solely to increase the morale bonus of his flawed pale green prism ioun stone from +1 to +3.

Dark Archive

@ HeWhoMustNotBeNamed

OK, so you have four attacks and they all suffer a steep penalty. You can take feats (multiweapom fighting, etc) to reduce those penalties much like when two weapon fighting.

If you choose to use flurry of blows instead, you are treated as if using the two weapon fighting feat chain at full Bab (followed by penalties). You would then lose the natural offhand attacks because you are using a full attack action to flurry. So it should be a simple issue of which provides the larger to hit and most number of attacks.

@Lormyr I disagree about Sacred fist. There is just so much that it can't do that other monks can- mechanically. I value a lot of class features on the monk and some days, sure, maybe the sacred fist one ups the monk class and archetypes. But once you get into certain degrees of system mastery and attempt certain goals, the sacred fist falls short, lacking too many important class features or lacking being an actual monk (because the archetypes are awesome). However, Sacred Fist is a very straightforward and strong monk in general. Ki pool + fervor + spells + blessings = lots of win. But people tend to discount the value of ki pool+ fast movement + monk bonus feats + stunning fist or archetype replacements. While I cannot honestly justify any high value on features like slow fall and high jump, they do come up more often than people care to acknowledge and we all know that we have nice options with Qinggong. The core monk has a lot to offer-usually not the things you want, but thank heavens for archetypes.


I thought sacred fists advantage was in that it can actually hit things with its fists without days of poring over book after book looking for boosts that arent either prohibitiveley expensive (aomf specifically), secretly trap options (bodywraps of mighty strikes), or specifically barred from monks (lookin at you brawling enchant--seriously, what the hell paizo).

Effective full bab + on-tap self buffs to further that is a huge swing in its favor vs the monk. That theyre not contractually obligated to stand still (flurry) on a class lauded for its mobility (fast movement, ki powers to boost that, abundant step, etc.) for this bonus is also a boon.

Tldr: i think SF is regarded as superior due to actually having a focus, and the means to accomplish it.


AndIMustMask wrote:

I thought sacred fists advantage was in that it can actually hit things with its fists without days of poring over book after book looking for boosts that arent either prohibitiveley expensive (aomf specifically), secretly trap options (bodywraps of mighty strikes), or specifically barred from monks (lookin at you brawling enchant--seriously, what the hell paizo).

Effective full bab + on-tap self buffs to further that is a huge swing in its favor vs the monk. That theyre not contractually obligated to stand still (flurry) on a class lauded for its mobility (fast movement, ki powers to boost that, abundant step, etc.) for this bonus is also a boon.

Tldr: i think SF is regarded as superior due to actually having a focus, and the means to accomplish it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists

A +1 AoMF is only 6,000 GP Is that all that expensive?


He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

I thought sacred fists advantage was in that it can actually hit things with its fists without days of poring over book after book looking for boosts that arent either prohibitiveley expensive (aomf specifically), secretly trap options (bodywraps of mighty strikes), or specifically barred from monks (lookin at you brawling enchant--seriously, what the hell paizo).

Effective full bab + on-tap self buffs to further that is a huge swing in its favor vs the monk. That theyre not contractually obligated to stand still (flurry) on a class lauded for its mobility (fast movement, ki powers to boost that, abundant step, etc.) for this bonus is also a boon.

Tldr: i think SF is regarded as superior due to actually having a focus, and the means to accomplish it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists

A +1 AoMF is only 6,000 GP Is that all that expensive?

4000gp, actually... But it occupies a item slot (so no Amulet of Natural Armor :/) and can only be enhanced up to +5 (unlike a normal weapon's limit of +10).

And considering Monks can use FoB to basically TWF with a single weapon, there's no reason for the AoMF to cost twice as much as an weapon.

The AoMF is a decent deal for Druids and Animal Companions, but an awful deal for Monks... That's how poorly designed this it is.


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He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
A +1 AoMF is only 6,000 GP Is that all that expensive?

A +1 AoMF is 4,000 actually. A regular +1 weapon costs 2,000 gold, so the AoMF is twice as expensive as a base weapon, culminating in you paying 100,000 gold for a +5 AoMF as opposed to 50,000 for an equivalent weapon. So yeah, it really is that expensive I'd say as unarmed strikes are essentially just really bleh manufactured weapons.

As a side note, I find it hilarious that the best thing a Monk type character can do is actually cut off their arm and replace it with a Clockwork Prosthesis. 6,400 gold and a lot of pain is a small price to pay for being able to enchant your fist as an actual weapon; you even get to keep your increased unarmed strike dice size as opposed to the other alternatives to actual unarmed strikes like spiked gauntlets and cestuses. Hell, make the arm adamantite too and punch through walls.


Lemmy wrote:
He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

I thought sacred fists advantage was in that it can actually hit things with its fists without days of poring over book after book looking for boosts that arent either prohibitiveley expensive (aomf specifically), secretly trap options (bodywraps of mighty strikes), or specifically barred from monks (lookin at you brawling enchant--seriously, what the hell paizo).

Effective full bab + on-tap self buffs to further that is a huge swing in its favor vs the monk. That theyre not contractually obligated to stand still (flurry) on a class lauded for its mobility (fast movement, ki powers to boost that, abundant step, etc.) for this bonus is also a boon.

Tldr: i think SF is regarded as superior due to actually having a focus, and the means to accomplish it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists

A +1 AoMF is only 6,000 GP Is that all that expensive?

4000gp, actually... But it occupies a item slot (so no Amulet of Natural Armor :/) and can only be enhanced up to +5 (unlike a normal weapon's limit of +10).

And considering Monks can use FoB to basically TWF with a single weapon, there's no reason for the AoMF to cost twice as much as an weapon.

The AoMF is a decent deal for Druids and Animal Companions, but an awful deal for Monks... That's how poorly designed this it is.

Sorry i meant to say Agile or Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists (you know the ones that allow Dex or Wis to damage?)


Eyy, i was gonna point the robo arm out. Nice to see the word getting out and sticking.


He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

I thought sacred fists advantage was in that it can actually hit things with its fists without days of poring over book after book looking for boosts that arent either prohibitiveley expensive (aomf specifically), secretly trap options (bodywraps of mighty strikes), or specifically barred from monks (lookin at you brawling enchant--seriously, what the hell paizo).

Effective full bab + on-tap self buffs to further that is a huge swing in its favor vs the monk. That theyre not contractually obligated to stand still (flurry) on a class lauded for its mobility (fast movement, ki powers to boost that, abundant step, etc.) for this bonus is also a boon.

Tldr: i think SF is regarded as superior due to actually having a focus, and the means to accomplish it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists

A +1 AoMF is only 6,000 GP Is that all that expensive?

4000gp, actually... But it occupies a item slot (so no Amulet of Natural Armor :/) and can only be enhanced up to +5 (unlike a normal weapon's limit of +10).

And considering Monks can use FoB to basically TWF with a single weapon, there's no reason for the AoMF to cost twice as much as an weapon.

The AoMF is a decent deal for Druids and Animal Companions, but an awful deal for Monks... That's how poorly designed this it is.

Sorry i meant to say Agile or Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists (you know the ones that allow Dex or Wis to damage?)

Those are also 4000 gold, same as any other +1 equivalent quality.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

I thought sacred fists advantage was in that it can actually hit things with its fists without days of poring over book after book looking for boosts that arent either prohibitiveley expensive (aomf specifically), secretly trap options (bodywraps of mighty strikes), or specifically barred from monks (lookin at you brawling enchant--seriously, what the hell paizo).

Effective full bab + on-tap self buffs to further that is a huge swing in its favor vs the monk. That theyre not contractually obligated to stand still (flurry) on a class lauded for its mobility (fast movement, ki powers to boost that, abundant step, etc.) for this bonus is also a boon.

Tldr: i think SF is regarded as superior due to actually having a focus, and the means to accomplish it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists

A +1 AoMF is only 6,000 GP Is that all that expensive?

4000gp, actually... But it occupies a item slot (so no Amulet of Natural Armor :/) and can only be enhanced up to +5 (unlike a normal weapon's limit of +10).

And considering Monks can use FoB to basically TWF with a single weapon, there's no reason for the AoMF to cost twice as much as an weapon.

The AoMF is a decent deal for Druids and Animal Companions, but an awful deal for Monks... That's how poorly designed this it is.

Sorry i meant to say Agile or Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists (you know the ones that allow Dex or Wis to damage?)
Those are also 4000 gold, same as any other +1 equivalent quality.

Ah ok, doing my math wrong then. But adding Agile or Guided if allowed is a pretty nice option to reduce MAD as guided makes it Wis to Attack and Defense, Agile lets you do damage, Weapon Finesse would help with the hit.


I liked Sacred Fist's ability to cast... Greater Magic Weapon..... So that they don't need to spend any gold on a weapon, except maybe backup bow.


The Guided weapon property is a 3.5 special ability.

Lantern Lodge

Dark Immortal wrote:
@Lormyr I disagree about Sacred fist. There is just so much that it can't do that other monks can- mechanically.

I am working up a series of builds for one to determine which I like most. Once I am done (as time allows), I'll post it up and we can see how it stacks up. I am anticipating the spells and Fort / Will evasion to be a significant advantage.

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Well, this will only end in tears.
agreed

Yep: one troll thread I'm not going to feed.

Silver Crusade

Lemmy wrote:

4000gp, actually... But it occupies a item slot (so no Amulet of Natural Armor :/) and can only be enhanced up to +5 (unlike a normal weapon's limit of +10).

And considering Monks can use FoB to basically TWF with a single weapon, there's no reason for the AoMF to cost twice as much as an weapon.

The AoMF is a decent deal for Druids and Animal Companions, but an awful deal for Monks... That's how poorly designed this it is.

No need for Amulet of NA as a monk can cast barkskin via Qinggong.

Why need AoMF at all? Just enchant a cestus to get the same affect but still maintain the monk's unarmed damage. I don't get why every monk discussion talks about how expensive an AoMF is.

If you see my build above, I prefer a high crit keen weapon with pummeling style. Upon further consideration, I would probably only take up to Monk (Sohei) 8 as that provides the second iterative on a flurry and go fighter the rest of the way (probably Lore Warden).

Monk (Sohei) 8/Sorcerer (Empyreal) 1
10 LW1: scholastic, furious focus
11 LW2: lunge, vicious stomp, combat expertise

Enlarged with lunge will provide 15' reach. Trip, AoO, and battlefield control. Shoot, with Sohei weapon training (polearm), grab a guisarme or naganita to control 25' radius (trip with AoOs). At level 11, CMB to trip while enlarged on a pummeling charge should be +22 = 10 BAB + 7 (Str) + 1 (size) + 2 (improved trip) + 2 (charge). If resistant to tripping, just flurry for an average of 240 vs AC 29 (which is average AC for CR14).

You couldn't do this build with SF in place of monk. Divine spells are nice but nothing you can't accomplish with a dip. I would say an arcane caster is better as you can cast mage armor, shield, enlarge person, and mirror image and haste off scrolls (CL3 with Magical Knack so auto success for mirror image and a roll of 3 for haste).


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
leo1925 wrote:
The Guided weapon property is a 3.5 special ability.

So? There is absolutely nothing in its description that makes it incompatible with the modern Pathfinder rule set.

Silver Crusade

slin2678 wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

4000gp, actually... But it occupies a item slot (so no Amulet of Natural Armor :/) and can only be enhanced up to +5 (unlike a normal weapon's limit of +10).

And considering Monks can use FoB to basically TWF with a single weapon, there's no reason for the AoMF to cost twice as much as an weapon.

The AoMF is a decent deal for Druids and Animal Companions, but an awful deal for Monks... That's how poorly designed this it is.

No need for Amulet of NA as a monk can cast barkskin via Qinggong.

Why need AoMF at all? Just enchant a cestus to get the same affect but still maintain the monk's unarmed damage. I don't get why every monk discussion talks about how expensive an AoMF is.

If you see my build above, I prefer a high crit keen weapon with pummeling style. Upon further consideration, I would probably only take up to Monk (Sohei) 8 as that provides the second iterative on a flurry and go fighter the rest of the way (probably Lore Warden).

Monk (Sohei) 8/Sorcerer (Empyreal) 1
10 LW1: scholastic, furious focus
11 LW2: lunge, vicious stomp, combat expertise

Enlarged with lunge will provide 15' reach. Trip, AoO, and battlefield control. Shoot, with Sohei weapon training (polearm), grab a guisarme or naganita to control 25' radius (trip with AoOs). At level 11, CMB to trip while enlarged on a pummeling charge should be +22 = 10 BAB + 7 (Str) + 1 (size) + 2 (improved trip) + 2 (charge). If resistant to tripping, just flurry for an average of 240 vs AC 29 (which is average AC for CR14).

You couldn't do this build with SF in place of monk. Divine spells are nice but nothing you can't accomplish with a dip. I would say an arcane caster is better as you can cast mage armor, shield, enlarge person, and mirror image and haste off scrolls (CL3 with Magical Knack so auto success for mirror image and a roll of 3 for haste).

BTW, as an Empyreal Sorcerer, you can even throw up Bless with a cheap wand as it's on your spell list.


slin2678 wrote:
No need for Amulet of NA as a monk can cast barkskin via Qinggong.

Yes, Qinggong is a decent patch... I agree. There are a few archetypes that make Monks decent. I mentioned that before quite a few times.

slin2678 wrote:
Why need AoMF at all? Just enchant a cestus to get the same affect but still maintain the monk's unarmed damage. I don't get why every monk discussion talks about how expensive an AoMF is

Probably because fighting unarmed is a big part of the class? Sure, you can use a Temple Sword and be far more effective, but what if I want an unarmed build? Monks are supposed to be good at unarmed combat and AoMF is supposed to make unarmed strikes a viable weapon choice;

Saying "Why do X with this class that is obviously meant to be a good doing X?" is not exactly a compelling argument... It comes pretty close to "Why play this class at all?"


Ravingdork wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
The Guided weapon property is a 3.5 special ability.
So? There is absolutely nothing in its description that makes it incompatible with the modern Pathfinder rule set.

description no, design of pricing yes. Now if it were damage only and only worked on deity favored weapons that would be more in line with pathfinder. As it is it would be more along the lines of a +3 weapon, which would be painful on an Aomf.


Sacred Fist 1/Monk X with Guided Amulet of Mighty Fist actually is a very focused Wis character. Wis to AC twice (along with a +2 bonus up to a max of +10 by level 20) Wis to Attack and Damage, Wis to Ki Pool, etc.

NOTE: I know the AC Twice is still under discussion but I am saying if you follow that logic it still works.

Silver Crusade

"Lemmy wrote:

Probably because fighting unarmed is a big part of the class? Sure, you can use a Temple Sword and be far more effective, but what if I want an unarmed build? Monks are supposed to be good at unarmed combat and AoMF is supposed to make unarmed strikes a viable weapon choice;

Saying "Why do X with this class that is obviously meant to be a good doing X?" is not exactly a compelling argument... It comes pretty close to "Why play this class at all?"

You're still fighting unarmed with a cestus.

cestus description wrote:
Benefit: While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.

Lantern Lodge

slin2678 wrote:

You're still fighting unarmed with a cestus.

Benefit: While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and [b]your unarmed attacks deal normal damage[\b]. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.

This was ruled to not work. I will attempt to find the ruling and post it, but in short, cestus does not allow use of unarmed strike damage.

Edit: Found here

Silver Crusade

I'm assuming you're referencing Sean's comments in that thread. Is it official because I don't see a FAQ for it? The rest of the item seems to suggest otherwise.

Besides, why would the item description say "deals normal unarmed damage?" Normal unarmed damage is 1d3 not 1d4. It seems they included that language to account for monk unarmed damage.

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