Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone


Rules Questions

51 to 82 of 82 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Negative Zer0 wrote:

Sean says

"As for question #2, the stone-wayfinder resonant power only works on said effects from an evil source, because the resonant power specifically cites protection from evil."

however as the poster claims the writer did not intend for that restriction to carry over He merly wanted to refernce how the ability worked just like protection from chaos states it wors like protection from evil. Basically he just dropped the ball on adding a clarification the same way protection from chaos clarifies that evil sources is chaos sources.

This is by no means absolute proof it just shows the amount of confusion even by pathfinder staff (assuming you believe the poster to be genuine) on how this item works.

It could be that the Design Team left it the way it was fully intending that it only worked against evil.

The Design Team's job is to make sure that stuff submitted by freelancers works within the balance and scope of the rules (albeit not always successfully--but that's part of their job.)

Scarab Sages

Negative Zer0 wrote:
This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

This sentence is the one that far too many pfs players wilfully overlook :(.

Accidentally overlooking is fine but I've often witnessed players wilfully trying to get more out of the standard plain Protection from Evil spell than they should. Often these people played far too much 3rd ed. No 1st level spell should offer flat out immunity to anything. That's pretty rediculous really.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


That's not what hold person does. If it did, you'd collapse. Instead, it's a mind-affecting effect that compels you to hold still.
So just like Captivating Song is a mental influence that continually compels you to walk, hold person is a mental influence that continually compels you to freeze.

Nothing in the spell says, hints, or even suggests this. It is completely baseless comparison

Sure it does: first, it's a compulsion, which means it's compelling you to do something (because "compulsion" and "compel" are the same word just as different parts of speech). Second, it says you're paralyzed, which the rules define as "freezing in place" (as opposed to, say, falling limp).

So by the definition of the compulsion tag, it's compelling you to do something. And since it's a mind-affecting spell, this compulsion is a mental one (as opposed to, say, holding your body in a forcefield or something). What it's compelling you to do is be paralyzed. And being paralyzed is defined in the rules as freezing in place.

So the spell literally compels your mind to freeze you in place. That is what the spell says it does.

Silver Crusade

After reading everything VERY carefully, I see where the camp that does permit protection from Captivating Song from the clear spindle is coming from. If harpies weren't so overpowered, I'd be inclined to agree, but this is almost more of a balance issue at this point. Harpies need as many nerfs as possible.

Sovereign Court

I definitely see the harpy exerting a puppet-like control. Its song is pulling you towards the harpy like a puppet on a string. If the harpy flies to another place you start going to the new place. That's definitely an ongoing influence, not a fire and forget power.

Hold Person allows you a new save every round, meaning it is an ongoing struggle between you and a compulsion to stand still. I think that falls under the purview of PfE.

Sleep is a onetime order to fall asleep, after which the spell doesn't really do anything else; you can be woken up no problem. I can see why PfE wouldn't give a new save, and why it's borderline whether PfE might even block the initial effect. And that's the place where the devs decided to draw the line.

Sovereign Court

Ok, I've gone through all the posts in this thread, and I saw the reference to another thread where Mike Brock said that the socketed Clear Spindle stone only gave a +2 bonus a re-roll on charms and compulsions ... is there an official ruling on that? Are people just taking that as PFS gospel because it's Mike Brock? What is the official, de-facto, absolute ruling on this item at this point in time?

How does it work against Charm Person? Dominate Person? Confusion? Murderous Command? Terrible Remorse?

Sovereign Court

The Human Diversion wrote:

Ok, I've gone through all the posts in this thread, and I saw the reference to another thread where Mike Brock said that the socketed Clear Spindle stone only gave a +2 bonus a re-roll on charms and compulsions ... is there an official ruling on that? Are people just taking that as PFS gospel because it's Mike Brock? What is the official, de-facto, absolute ruling on this item at this point in time?

How does it work against Charm Person? Dominate Person? Confusion? Murderous Command? Terrible Remorse?

Actually this ruling is more commonly being ignored.

The most common ruling is:
Flat (no role required) immunity to a spell or effects that possess or exercise mental control from evil sources only.

However you should expect to see some table variation because of the fact this is still a debated issue without any official response.

What constitutes possess or exercise mental control is loosely (I say loosely because some spells still cause debates like the one in this thread) defined in the FAQ:

Quote:

Protection From Evil: Does this work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or just against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion. (Sleep is a border case for this issue, but the designers feel that "this spell overrides your brain's sleep centers" is different enough than "this spell overrides your resistance to commands from others.")

This is unfortunately the only extent to which they have currently addressed this item.

Sovereign Court

David Bowles wrote:
The FAQ is likely we are going to get. It's just a strange case because the reroll language is almost certainly referring to a PC *already controlled* who gets prot evil cast on them. This situation is IMPOSSIBLE with the clear spindle resonance, as the spell is always functional.

The opposing school of thought is failing the first will save basically triggers the resonate ability which functions as if protection from evil had been cast on you. So you would indeed then trigger a second save. If successful you trigger immunity against that one source of the spell/ability. The main supporting factor for this is a spindle stone that grants only a +1 to will saves (you can select any one save but for arguments sake you selected will) costs 3,400. So for 4,000 you get a reroll and a +2 but it's only on some will saves. This seems way more in line with the costs of the other ioun stone.

Both interpretation have their merits and neither party is technically right or wrong to say it works they way they think it does. This is the entire reason the FAQ exists. It's not like this was some one off question that came up in a single game ever. This has been an ongoing recurring debate, is an item used by many players, and they need to finally answer how this stupid thing works, or ban it from PFS.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Negative Zer0 wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
The FAQ is likely we are going to get. It's just a strange case because the reroll language is almost certainly referring to a PC *already controlled* who gets prot evil cast on them. This situation is IMPOSSIBLE with the clear spindle resonance, as the spell is always functional.

The opposing school of thought is failing the first will save basically triggers the resonate ability which functions as if protection from evil had been cast on you. So you would indeed then trigger a second save. If successful you trigger immunity against that one source of the spell/ability.

Both interpretation have their merits and neither party is technically right or wrong to say it works they way they think it does. This is the entire reason the FAQ exists. It's not like this was some one off question that came up in a single game ever. This has been an ongoing recurring debate, is an item used by many players, and they need to finally answer how this stupid thing works, or ban it from PFS.

For those who think the resonant ability grants a reroll rather than immunity, has anyone checked the actual wording of the item? I don't have it in front of me, but I could swear I remember it actually using the word "immunity". Could be wrong, though.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

For those that don't think it requires a roll why do you get to flat out ignore the first line of the ability and if it was meant to be immunity as an always on effect why does the resonate ability not say:

"Immunity from possession and mental control created by evil creatures or objects"

The fact I was able to sum up exactly how some people are claiming this item works in almost the same number of words as saying (as protection from evil) is yet another reason why I think they meant for this to be a re-roll ability. Otherwise there was no need to sya as protection from evil if they ONLY mechanic they wanted was the immunity.

There are absolutely merits to both arguments. I can very easily see why people can think it's just meant to be an always on immunity. But this isn't the one and only way to interpret how this thing works.

Silver Crusade

Negative Zer0 wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
The FAQ is likely we are going to get. It's just a strange case because the reroll language is almost certainly referring to a PC *already controlled* who gets prot evil cast on them. This situation is IMPOSSIBLE with the clear spindle resonance, as the spell is always functional.

The opposing school of thought is failing the first will save basically triggers the resonate ability which functions as if protection from evil had been cast on you. So you would indeed then trigger a second save. If successful you trigger immunity against that one source of the spell/ability. The main supporting factor for this is a spindle stone that grants only a +1 to will saves (you can select any one save but for arguments sake you selected will) costs 3,400. So for 4,000 you get a reroll and a +2 but it's only on some will saves. This seems way more in line with the costs of the other ioun stone.

Both interpretation have their merits and neither party is technically right or wrong to say it works they way they think it does. This is the entire reason the FAQ exists. It's not like this was some one off question that came up in a single game ever. This has been an ongoing recurring debate, is an item used by many players, and they need to finally answer how this stupid thing works, or ban it from PFS.

My only issue with this is that is different from every other resonance effect. The dusty rose prism doesn't get triggered by someone attacking you. It's always on. Just like the clear spindle. 4K for a permanent 1st level spell effect seems perfectly fine to me, given that 4K also gives you half a level two spell in the form of +2 STR or +2 DEX.

Sovereign Court

David Bowles wrote:
My only issue with this is that is different from every other resonance effect. The dusty rose prism doesn't get triggered by someone attacking you. It's always on. Just like the clear spindle. 4K for a permanent 1st level spell effect seems perfectly fine to me, given that 4K also gives you half a level two spell in the form of +2 STR or +2 DEX.

And I would guess that the argument against your point here is that the dusty rose Ioun Stone is completely in-line, cost-wise with items that grant AC and the fact that it's slotless. The clear spindle Ioun Stone is priced WAY too low to grant a flat-out immunity to mind controlling.

Silver Crusade

Negative Zer0 wrote:

For those that don't think it requires a roll why do you get to flat out ignore the first line of the ability and if it was meant to be immunity as an always on effect why does the resonate ability not say:

"Immunity from possession and mental control created by evil creatures or objects"

The fact I was able to sum up exactly how some people are claiming this item works in almost the same number of words as saying (as protection from evil) is yet another reason why I think they meant for this to be a re-roll ability. Otherwise there was no need to sya as protection from evil if they ONLY mechanic they wanted was the immunity.

There are absolutely merits to both arguments. I can very easily see why people can think it's just meant to be an always on immunity. But this isn't the one and only way to interpret how this thing works.

Again, the actual spell is not constantly in effect. That is why that language is in the spell. The clear spindle is constantly in effect, so that language never applies.

If a PC is already affected by an evil compulsion, then the reroll text applies. But once prot evil is up, evil compulsions are out of luck. No rerolls. No nothing. They don't work.

"Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires."

I am claming that this text never applies to the clear spindle, because it is ALWAYS in effect BEFORE the compulsion lands. This language is for when prot evil is cast after the fact.

Silver Crusade

The Human Diversion wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
My only issue with this is that is different from every other resonance effect. The dusty rose prism doesn't get triggered by someone attacking you. It's always on. Just like the clear spindle. 4K for a permanent 1st level spell effect seems perfectly fine to me, given that 4K also gives you half a level two spell in the form of +2 STR or +2 DEX.
And I would guess that the argument against your point here is that the dusty rose Ioun Stone is completely in-line, cost-wise with items that grant AC and the fact that it's slotless. The clear spindle Ioun Stone is priced WAY too low to grant a flat-out immunity to mind controlling.

It's priced fine for a 1st level spell effect. Maybe your issue is with the spell. But that's not really the issue here. It's also only mind controlling from evil sources. And only certain effects. Confusion, sleep, and fascination all still work fine.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
David Bowles wrote:
Negative Zer0 wrote:

For those that don't think it requires a roll why do you get to flat out ignore the first line of the ability and if it was meant to be immunity as an always on effect why does the resonate ability not say:

"Immunity from possession and mental control created by evil creatures or objects"

The fact I was able to sum up exactly how some people are claiming this item works in almost the same number of words as saying (as protection from evil) is yet another reason why I think they meant for this to be a re-roll ability. Otherwise there was no need to sya as protection from evil if they ONLY mechanic they wanted was the immunity.

There are absolutely merits to both arguments. I can very easily see why people can think it's just meant to be an always on immunity. But this isn't the one and only way to interpret how this thing works.

Again, the actual spell is not constantly in effect. That is why that language is in the spell. The clear spindle is constantly in effect, so that language never applies.

You are claiming they used "(as protection from evil)"

To only reference the BOLD section:

Quote:

First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures.

Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell Resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

When "Immunity from possession and mental control created by evil creatures or objects" would have accomplished the same exact goal without referencing one of the longest spells in the rule book.


Negative Zer0 wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
It's priced fine for a 1st level spell effect. Maybe your issue is with the spell. But that's not really the issue here. It's also only mind controlling from evil sources. And only certain effects. Confusion, sleep, and fascination all still work fine.

Except it's not a first level spell because as you describe it, its a first lvl spell that has permanency making it a 5th level spell.

As a first lvl spell it is only immunity for 1 minute

I believe David is saying that it is priced according to the magic item creation guidelines in the Core Rulebook as a Use-activated or continuous item, so the pricing would be Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000 gp, multiplied by 2 since protection from evil has a 1 minute/level spell duration (pulled from here). This could still be overpowered - I cannot remember the name of it, but there was some archery-related wrist slot item priced exactly the same (continuous use based on an archery enhancing spell) that was banned for PFS as overpowered (since the resulting item pricing was not compared to other existing items to determinine appropriateness).

Negative Zer0 wrote:
When "Immunity from possession and mental control created by evil creatures or objects" would have accomplished the same exact goal without referencing one of the longest spells in the rule book.

But would that be shorter than what they put in the description of the clear spindle stone?

Sovereign Court

Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil).

Immunity from possession and mental control created by evil creatures or objects.


Jiggy wrote:


Sure it does: first, it's a compulsion, which means it's compelling you to do something (because "compulsion" and "compel" are the same word just as different parts of speech). Second, it says you're paralyzed, which the rules define as "freezing in place" (as opposed to, say, falling limp).

So the aid spell is compelling you to....?

A hold spell does not let the caster exercise any control over someone. Neither the caster nor the recipient have any choice in the matter: You hold still and that's the end of it. A harpy's song can make you walk, climb, swim, jump, or even teleport to them, walk you off a cliff, walk you through a fire or drown you.


Negative zero:

Presumably there's the possibility of pathfinders tackling one of their own to the ground and slipping their wayfinder on them when they get charmed.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Negative zero:

Presumably there's the possibility of pathfinders tackling one of their own to the ground and slipping their wayfinder on them when they get charmed.

I prefer to think of it a smashing the wayfinder into someone's head and screaming "THE POWER OF WAYFINDER COMPELS YOU!"

Silver Crusade

Negative Zer0 wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Negative Zer0 wrote:

For those that don't think it requires a roll why do you get to flat out ignore the first line of the ability and if it was meant to be immunity as an always on effect why does the resonate ability not say:

"Immunity from possession and mental control created by evil creatures or objects"

The fact I was able to sum up exactly how some people are claiming this item works in almost the same number of words as saying (as protection from evil) is yet another reason why I think they meant for this to be a re-roll ability. Otherwise there was no need to sya as protection from evil if they ONLY mechanic they wanted was the immunity.

There are absolutely merits to both arguments. I can very easily see why people can think it's just meant to be an always on immunity. But this isn't the one and only way to interpret how this thing works.

Again, the actual spell is not constantly in effect. That is why that language is in the spell. The clear spindle is constantly in effect, so that language never applies.

You are claiming they used "(as protection from evil)"

To only reference the BOLD section:

Quote:

First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures.

Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental

...

It's only a bizarre circumstance that makes this true. "As per protection from evil" is still less text than the relevant passages from the spell description. They are actually referencing the whole thing, but it turns out that only part of the text is relevant because of timing issues. The part about the reroll is only relevant when an effect is already in place and prot evil has been cast as a countermeasure. As a preventative measure, it is absolute.

"While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. "

It turns out that this is the most relevant text out of the wall of text because EVERY attempt is new because protection from evil is ALWAYS active. There is nothing anywhere to suggest that it is not always active with the clear spindle. It's no different than marching around with the actual spell always active through extend metamagic rods.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Negative zero:

Presumably there's the possibility of pathfinders tackling one of their own to the ground and slipping their wayfinder on them when they get charmed.

There's this, as well. Under this scenario, the reroll with the +2 business comes back into play. But if my PCs is wearing it at the time of the casting, the spell fails.

It also helps to refer to a spell, so when the spell gets errataed or FAQed, so does the item.

Sovereign Court

Is the confusion coming from whether "This spell" refers to Protection from Evil or the suppressed spell? The compulsion and possession ward from protection from evil is basically permanent with the resonance bonus from the wayfinder. I'm having some trouble understanding the confusion.

Silver Crusade

There is some interpretation that it "kicks on" when the spell lands, so instead of being protected, you only get the reroll +2 from the after the fact case. I was talking about prot evil in my posts.

I agree that its permanent, and so the majority of the text in the spell is not relevant in the case of the clear spindle.

Sovereign Court

I don't really see why people are still confused. The following has been made pretty clear;

1) PfE really only works against Evil, no matter what it used to do in 3.x

2) The Spindlefinder emulates PfE, not the other PfAlignment spells as well.

3) If you're already wearing a Spindlefinder when the nasty spell hits, you enjoy immunity.

4) The Spindlefinder is correctly costed for a permanent PfE, and in fact doesn't even give the full effect of PfE, since summoned evil monsters can still touch you. Whether it's OP or not is irrelevant to the facts of the rules.

5) Not even all [charm] or [compulsion] effects are blocked by a Spindlefinder, but quite a few of the nastiest ones are. Notably, it doesn't block Confusion, so a carrying barbarian could still end up killing you.

It's a pretty good item. It helps prevent some PvP killings. It definitely doesn't obsolete mind-affecting BBEGs, since a truly evil villain could still do so many other nasty things like dominate level 1 commoner innocents to attack paladins and stuff. Or take control of politicians. Just because a PC is protected doesn't mean everyone else is.

It only *blocks unimaginative BBEGs with no backup plan. Given the amount of enchantment-immune species (undead, plant, ooze, construct, etc.), anyone who can't cope with that doesn't deserve to be a long-term serious BBEG. (Because he just got eaten by an ooze that he couldn't charm.)

Face it: due to PfE and True Seeing, Illusion and Enchantment are schools of wizardry that you don't actually use against PCs directly, you use it to screw them indirectly, through vulerable NPCs.

Sovereign Court

Yeah there's nothing anywhere that describes the resonance bonuses as having a toggle, they're just always on for the wearer of the wayfinder (strictly for PFS, there's some other ways to get resonance IIRC). The only time the rest of the PfE mental protection text is relevant is in the case where the wayfinder is forced onto a PC that is currently under the effects of a mental control spell. And that's not the common use case with this resonance bonus.

It may be easier for people who are confused about this ability to swallow if you picture the PfE as being under a permanency spell. No new mental control spells from evil creatures get through.

It is pretty powerful, but it's limited because it only works against evil creatures.

Silver Crusade

And only certain effects.


Andrew Christian wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

My opinion is that it doesn't work on Harpy Song.

Why?

Because if you use the statement, "If the control is an effect of the spell, protection from evil does nothing, while if the caster can exert control, then it helps," and apply it to Harpy Song, you'll find that the ability has an effect and that's what is exerting the control.

The harpy cannot mentally control you to do anything.

If you ask me, this is more where a DM does not liek a effect and choose to read what they want into rukles instead of what is there.

I have no problem with the effect. I feel my interpretation is just.

I completely disagree and/or do not believe that statement, but I agree you are allowed to make that ruling.

I would agree with Mr. Bowles statement for DMs that rule that way.

David Bowles wrote:


Also, further limiting player defenses against something like harpies is getting too close to player-griefing for my taste.


David Bowles wrote:


Also, further limiting player defenses against something like harpies is getting too close to player-griefing for my taste.

I've always wondered what these GM's would do if they sat down to play and the GM ruled something mind blowingly insane just because the GM's sitting at his table were doing things like this to invalidate his characters for no reason other than spite.

Silver Crusade

I'm not speaking about Mr. Christian, but I've encountered several high star GMs that play so infrequently that they have very little empathy for the players. I'm only 2-star because I mix it up to keep fresh on both angles. Also, high star GMs have mountains of GM credit, so a PC loss means very little to them.

I'm always giving the players the benefit of doubt on game effects that take them out of the game. Harpies are just particularly bad because of their huge area of effect.

Frankly, my recent PC kill count is high enough with the newer (season 4+) material without doing any PC-griefing at all.


Undone wrote:
David Bowles wrote:


Also, further limiting player defenses against something like harpies is getting too close to player-griefing for my taste.
I've always wondered what these GM's would do if they sat down to play and the GM ruled something mind blowingly insane just because the GM's sitting at his table were doing things like this to invalidate his characters for no reason other than spite.

In my experience they message Mr. Brock and complain.

I played with a 5 star as a player and he was th emost rude inconsiderate player. He talked over other players, put his hand in my face when I asked when it was my turn. Griefed other players, contoolled and moved my character aroudn the map despite my disagreement.

These actions caused my friend i was introducing to PFs to quit playing due this game.

I got up and walked off the table due to this.

51 to 82 of 82 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.