Elixir of Sex Shift


Rules Questions

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Ok so looking through the wondrous items in the ACG I stumbled upon this.

It costs 2,250 GP and basically does nothing more then turn your male character into a girl, and upon drinking a second one turns you back. The changes are permanent (Barring a second Elixir) and provide no bonuses to Disguise Checks. It explains you still look like the same person just of a different sex.

Why is this a thing?
What is the functions for it?

Does this mean we are about to see Gender specific items?


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It is a thing because some people want to change their sex. That's all there is to it.

Sovereign Court

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Because the only way to change one's gender in-game is either through polymorph magics or cursed items, and not everyone is comfortable in their own gender. The first time a wizard or alchemist thinks "I wonder what it's like to be a (wo)man," they can figure it out now.

That, or Beguiling Gift shenanigans (though nothing beats the Philter of Love.)

EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...


It's a no-save-allowed and non-dispellable item that can only be reversed by using another elixir, and the person drinking it doesn't get a save if said drink is involuntary. I'm sure somebody will find uses for it beyond the mundane.

I'm wondering what the thread is here for, though? The rules text for what the item does is pretty cut-and-dried to me.


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El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...

Technically, you are still incorrect. If the GM is that much of a stickler, the Alchemist would have to pick up the 'Master Craftsman' Feat before 'Craft Wonderous Item', they would simply declare Craft (alchemy) their associated Craft skill...


I was just confused, its an interesting concept as I do know some transgender players and this would be an interesting tool for them IC to play out a similar story if they so chose. Also Alleran I never thought of that, could be useful in stories as well.

Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.


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Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.
Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Genie wrote:

I was just confused, its an interesting concept as I do know some transgender players and this would be an interesting tool for them IC to play out a similar story if they so chose. Also Alleran I never thought of that, could be useful in stories as well.

Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.

It originally showed up in a post on the boards not long after Wrath of the Righteous started last year. There is a prominent NPC couple in the first Chapter for whom that item figures strongly, or rather for whom it would figure strongly, if it existed when that AP came out. Putting it in the ACG is likely more of a 'now we can put that argument to bed' kind of thing.


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Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicalsbigots call it the potion of cure homosexuality.

fixed that one for you.

Sovereign Court

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...
Technically, you are still incorrect. If the GM is that much of a stickler, the Alchemist would have to pick up the 'Master Craftsman' Feat before 'Craft Wonderous Item', they would simply declare Craft (alchemy) their associated Craft skill...

Ha, yeah. But with that feat anyone can be an elixir-maker! I still find it silly that RAW elixirs and philters aren't things that can be brewed without being at least 1/4th done with a character. Ah, well, c'est la vie.

Genie wrote:
Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.

No offense here. Just answering, since questions were asked.


What other sorts of elixirs do we need?

Elixir of Breast-Enhancement.
Elixir of Muscle-Building.
Elixir of Liposuction.
Elixir of Face-Lift.


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Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.

That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.

:-P


Wiggz wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.

That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.

:-P

Of course, such a potion would work both ways ...


Jeven wrote:

What other sorts of elixirs do we need?

Elixir of Breast-Enhancement.
Elixir of Liposuction.
Elixir of Face-Lift.

I wrote some spells that can do all of these.

For the muscles part, consider spending points in strength or using a manual.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicalsbigots call it the potion of cure homosexuality.
fixed that one for you.

i would think wanting to be able to change someone's sexuality against their will would be no more bigoted than wanting to change their sex against their will. It was important that we have explicit and codified rules for one, why not the other?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Jeven wrote:

What other sorts of elixirs do we need?

Elixir of Breast-Enhancement.
Elixir of Liposuction.
Elixir of Face-Lift.

I wrote some spells that can do all of these.

For the muscles part, consider spending points in strength or using a manual.

I think that you make a good point that we already have a mechanism in place to create this kind of magic at any table where it might seem appropriate or necessary.


Jeven wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.

That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.

:-P

Of course, such a potion would work both ways ...

Of course. Absolutely.

I can actually think of some interesting scenarios you could run surrounding that, like thwarting a royal marriage intended to produce an heir...


Wiggz wrote:
Jeven wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.

That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.

:-P

Of course, such a potion would work both ways ...

Of course. Absolutely.

I can actually think of some interesting scenarios you could run surrounding that, like thwarting a royal marriage intended to produce an heir...

Which in turn is foiled by the amazing Elixir of In vitro fertilisation.

Or in the case where Elixir of Sex Shift turns the princess into a prince, an Elixir of Male Pregnancy and an Elixir of Gene Splicing and an Elixir of Caesarian Section. Then the prince and his former princess now prince bride/groom can still produce an heir.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
The Genie wrote:

I was just confused, its an interesting concept as I do know some transgender players and this would be an interesting tool for them IC to play out a similar story if they so chose. Also Alleran I never thought of that, could be useful in stories as well.

Sorry if I offended I didn't mean too.

It originally showed up in a post on the boards not long after Wrath of the Righteous started last year. There is a prominent NPC couple in the first Chapter for whom that item figures strongly, or rather for whom it would figure strongly, if it existed when that AP came out. Putting it in the ACG is likely more of a 'now we can put that argument to bed' kind of thing.

It's interesting - we just finished our run in the AP (truly awesome campaign incidentally once Mythic rules were thrown out) and this never once played a role in our game. Never even came up. Of course, we were more focused on the whole 'rid the world of the demonic scourge that threatened to destroy it' rather than exploring the social ramifications of an interracial lesbian couple that also apparently needed to be transgender, so now I'm wondering if we missed the point entirely...


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So I just realized that with the Investigator/Alchemist Alchemical Allocation extract you can drink the Sex Shift Elixir, spit it back into the container and redrink it indefinitely so long as you keep preparing your extracts.

... Which is entirely disgusting and unsanitary, but I'm sure people will find out some extremely funny ways to make use of this fact.


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Why do we have a a Elixir of Sex Shift? Because we have trans people who want to live out there fantasies, just like the rest of us, and sometimes it's simpler than wanting to be a god-like Wizard - they want to be a person who switched there gender easily, cleanly and with no social stigma attached. Truly, a fantasy in this world.

Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.


JonGarrett wrote:
Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.

People in real life have been forced to deal with lots of things that remain possible - and in some cases are even encouraged - in this game. If its important to address these social issues in-game, so important that it needs official rulings rather than simply allowing people to handle it at their table wherever and whenever they find it appropriate, why not address the entirety of it? Why not introduce an entire line of similarly themed items and spells and trust the gaming public to use them responsibly in their individual games?

I'm not the one making the argument - for or against - that we need these aspects of 'real life' in the game. I'm just making the argument that if we're going to introduce these issues, officially no less, then why wouldn't the opportunity be taken to address ALL aspects of it?

People in real life have been raped, murdered, tortured, made slaves, etc. but fantasy gaming (Paizo included) have never shied away from these topics, what makes this one so sacred that it cannot be addressed fully?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Wiggz wrote:
People in real life have been raped, murdered, tortured, made slaves, etc. but fantasy gaming (Paizo included) have never shied away from these topics, what makes this one so sacred that it cannot be addressed fully?

Most likely, the Paizo developer who created this item (for the best intentions) did not realize the can of worms they were opening.

Wiggz wrote:
That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda.

I think this is the real problem.


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Wiggz wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicalsbigots call it the potion of cure homosexuality.
fixed that one for you.
i would think wanting to be able to change someone's sexuality against their will would be no more bigoted than wanting to change their sex against their will. It was important that we have explicit and codified rules for one, why not the other?

The bigotry comes from calling it cure Homosexuality, which implies that Homosexuality is something that requires curing.

Also, the 'important that we have explicit and codified rules for one', was because a rather ugly & vocal minority flipped their s+&~ when Wrath of the Righteous had the audacity to have a prominent NPC be a fully functioning Male-to-Female transgender, so one of the Paizo staff whipped up a magic item that could have accomplished the job and there were enough members of the customer base that said 'cool!' that they went ahead and added it to the magic item list on the next hardcover book they had in the pipeline.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Katydid wrote:

So I just realized that with the Investigator/Alchemist Alchemical Allocation extract you can drink the Sex Shift Elixir, spit it back into the container and redrink it indefinitely so long as you keep preparing your extracts.

... Which is entirely disgusting and unsanitary, but I'm sure people will find out some extremely funny ways to make use of this fact.

Now I know what extract I need to pick up next...


JonGarrett wrote:

Why do we have a a Elixir of Sex Shift? Because we have trans people who want to live out there fantasies, just like the rest of us, and sometimes it's simpler than wanting to be a god-like Wizard - they want to be a person who switched there gender easily, cleanly and with no social stigma attached. Truly, a fantasy in this world.

Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.

Of course, you could flip this on its head and argue that by introducing such an item completely eliminates transexuals (or at least high-level/wealthy transexuals) from the game. They are magically "fixed" and just cease to exist as transexuals, being wholly transformed into the opposite gender. Any ambiguity (which is the condition of real-world transexuals) is removed.


El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
EDIT: Since this is under Rules, I want to be technically correct; Alchemists can't make Elixirs without actual magic classes. Craft Wonderous Item and whatnot...

Now that is SOME bullsh*t right there. What gives, APG devs?


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Jeven wrote:
Of course, you could flip this on its head and argue that by introducing such an item completely eliminates transexuals (or at least high-level/wealthy transexuals) from the game. They are magically "fixed" and just cease to exist as transexuals, being wholly transformed into the opposite gender. Any ambiguity (which is the condition of real-world transexuals) is removed.

Umm, isn't the only reason transsexuals need their own movement because the current state of medical science is incapable of replicating the effects of this elixir?

Your family should (emphasis on should) be cool with you no matter what you do, and if friends don't accept the change they weren't really friends anyway.

The problem is that a large number of MTFs simply cannot pass as women due to their facial features, bone structure, or what have you, and they cannot acquire a working uterus at present.

Meanwhile, FTMs have far more limited options for corrective surgery, because it's a lot harder to create something that wasn't there than to rearrange something that is, and consequently their medical remedies at present are pretty terrible.

In a perfect world, a person with gender dysphoria could simply say "so, a hormonal trigger was switched on/failed to activate during the first month of gestation, and this procedure is meant to correct that."

But given how messed up gender roles in society are (where women are *ALWAYS* evaluated at least partially based on their suitability as breeding partners even when the context makes that completely and utterly irrelevant [such as Supreme Court Justices]), the unconvincing and surface-level nature of current procedures forces people with gender dysphoria into a cognitive space that acts like an "Uncanny Valley" for bigots.

When medical science catches up with this magic item, the phrase "I was born with different genitals" will be no more relevant than "I was born with a cleft palate." It would just be a biochemical error rectified ages ago, and no one would care.


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Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.

When your town is being stomped into the ground by gøddamned stone giants while ghouls feast on the moldering bones of your dead, I highly doubt anyone will give one single, solitary f*ck what you did in the privacy of the smoldering crater where your bedroom used to be.

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Am I the only one whose reaction to such an item is to figure how to make a delayed-effect version and then "spike" the drinks at wild parties?


Jeven wrote:
JonGarrett wrote:

Why do we have a a Elixir of Sex Shift? Because we have trans people who want to live out there fantasies, just like the rest of us, and sometimes it's simpler than wanting to be a god-like Wizard - they want to be a person who switched there gender easily, cleanly and with no social stigma attached. Truly, a fantasy in this world.

Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.
Of course, you could flip this on its head and argue that by introducing such an item completely eliminates transexuals (or at least high-level/wealthy transexuals) from the game. They are magically "fixed" and just cease to exist as transexuals, being wholly transformed into the opposite gender. Any ambiguity (which is the condition of real-world transexuals) is removed.

Check the Shaman iconic. The Elixir of Sex Shift is written rules to explain how she changes her sex to match her gender in-universe.

Grand Lodge

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Didn't we already have this discussion?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Wiggz wrote:

If its important to address these social issues in-game, so important that it needs official rulings rather than simply allowing people to handle it at their table wherever and whenever they find it appropriate, why not address the entirety of it? Why not introduce an entire line of similarly themed items and spells and trust the gaming public to use them responsibly in their individual games?

I'm not the one making the argument - for or against - that we need these aspects of 'real life' in the game. I'm just making the argument that if we're going to introduce these issues, officially no less, then why wouldn't the opportunity be taken to address ALL aspects of it?

Who said it is "important"? It is one magic item in one book in a game system with many books that have many magic items. Is every single magic item "important"? So important that Paizo is blameworthy for failing to exhaust every single concept with all possible variations?

"Look! They have a magic item called a 'Folding Boat.' But, just a second here. . .hey! There's no mention of a 'Folding Wagon!' I can't find a 'Folding Cart' either! Some people like to travel by land. What sort of maritime agenda are they trying to foist on us?"

If you don't like the item, house-rule it away. Done. Easy peasy.

I don't think Paizo is the one with the agenda here.

Shadow Lodge

Everyone has an agenda. You'd have to be completely goal-agnostic to not.


Kelvar Silvermace wrote:
Wiggz wrote:

If its important to address these social issues in-game, so important that it needs official rulings rather than simply allowing people to handle it at their table wherever and whenever they find it appropriate, why not address the entirety of it? Why not introduce an entire line of similarly themed items and spells and trust the gaming public to use them responsibly in their individual games?

I'm not the one making the argument - for or against - that we need these aspects of 'real life' in the game. I'm just making the argument that if we're going to introduce these issues, officially no less, then why wouldn't the opportunity be taken to address ALL aspects of it?

Who said it is "important"? It is one magic item in one book in a game system with many books that have many magic items. Is every single magic item "important"? So important that Paizo is blameworthy for failing to exhaust every single concept with all possible variations?

I don't think Paizo is the one with the agenda here.

That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated it publicly. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?

C'mon man. I doubt even you believe that. Nor do I think you need to pretend that you do in an effort to smear me personally. When you stop discussing the topic at hand and resort to attacking an individual instead, you've already lost the debate.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Didn't we already have this discussion?

Yes and no.

We had a very similar discussion about Shardra Geltl.

But this is about this item. Which, while it may have been created to support her story, is rife with possibilities for abuse.

Wiggz wrote:
That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated publicly that they do. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?

There is a risk that they will get too far ahead of their audience though. You can hear the rumbling on these message boards.

In any case, see my above comment about this "Elixir of Sex Shift" being easy to abuse.


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Lord Fyre wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Didn't we already have this discussion?

Yes and no.

We had a very similar discussion about Shardra Geltl.

But this is about this item. Which, while it may have been created to support her story, is rife with possibilities for abuse.

Wiggz wrote:
That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated publicly that they do. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?

There is a risk that they will get too far ahead of their audience though. You can hear the rumbling on these message boards.

In any case, see my above comment about this "Elixir of Sex Shift" being easy to abuse.

Oh I don't disagree at all. I can acknowledge that its a noble and laudable goal while at the same time holding the position that its inappropriate to use their game as a platform to push a socially progressive agenda that is of dubious benefit to a small minority of its patronage, especially when considering that most people who engage in gaming do so with the understanding that its a safe haven from such socio-political heavy-handedness. That's my opinion but I'm not alone in it... and if that opinion happens to be a minority one, well then I'm confidant that in the interest of fairness, Paizo will champion me next, eh?

This is likely my ignorance showing, but its my understanding that 1) the struggle of being born physically different than they are mentally or emotionally is one of the greatest hardships facing our transgender population and that 2) Pathfinder is a fantasy game. Who's fantasy is it to relive the hardships they suffer in daily life every day?

Grand Lodge

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I imagine it is many peoples fantasy to see characters who have triumphed over those hardships as a motivator to get through their own.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Wiggz wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
That's good. Suggesting that Paizo doesn't have an agenda because they can't be expected to come up with every random magic item and yet they DO manage to come up with this one - completely at random? I don't think so. You know how I know Paizo has an agenda on this issue? You know how I know its important to them? Because they've stated publicly that they do. Over and over again. If you want to make the argument that its a laudable agenda then that's something I can get behind, something I've even said myself more than once... but to argue that they don't have one at all?

There is a risk that they will get too far ahead of their audience though. You can hear the rumbling on these message boards.

In any case, see my above comment about this "Elixir of Sex Shift" being easy to abuse.

Oh I don't disagree at all. I can acknowledge that its a noble and laudable goal while at the same time holding the position that its inappropriate to use their game as a platform to push a socially progressive agenda that is of dubious benefit to a small minority of its patronage, especially when considering that most people who engage in gaming do so with the understanding that its a safe haven from such socio-political heavy-handedness. That's my opinion but I'm not alone in it... and if that opinion happens to be a minority one, well then I'm confidant that in the interest of fairness, Paizo will champion me next, eh?

Actually, using their game to "push a socially progressive agenda" is (IMO) not a bad thing. Like any other form of entertainment, it can and (if handled carefully) should also spread ideas. (At its best Star Trek is a good example of this.)

The problem is that I feel that Paizo needs to throttle things back a bit - they are being too heavy-handed. If an agenda is pushed too hard, it can lose the very people who it needs to reach.

So, no, you are not alone in your impression. I see that my perception is (at least) parallel to yours.


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So, Ranma is an Alchemist?

Silver Crusade

The Genie wrote:

Ok so looking through the wondrous items in the ACG I stumbled upon this.

It costs 2,250 GP and basically does nothing more then turn your male character into a girl, and upon drinking a second one turns you back. The changes are permanent (Barring a second Elixir) and provide no bonuses to Disguise Checks. It explains you still look like the same person just of a different sex.

Why is this a thing?
What is the functions for it?

Does this mean we are about to see Gender specific items?

You got hit with a reincarnate spell and came back as a different sex?


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicalsbigots call it the potion of cure homosexuality.
fixed that one for you.

Po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to. /cheapshot

Okay, I'm probably treading dangerous ground here, let's walk it back a bit.

There was an amusing fantasy setting I read that had "orientation adapters." Since magic in the setting was as ubiquitous as technology today (as was the occasional gender-shift spell/curse) turning people bisexual was an elective procedure. The person you loved as a "hetero life-partner" could also be your romantic life partner with a little bit of outpatient spellery. It was a rather important development for the people who got "can't be fixed" cursed with a gender swap when they were already in a relationship.

Anyway, yeah, the item exists because not everyone is cisgendered vanilla. Folks run everything from Heroquest to an erotically charged sexventure that doesn't really USE dice that much and play everything from Destruktokon Big Orc Mans to Gasildurith the Hidden Prince of the Sun-washed Rocks who *backstory/title goes on for 6 pages*. Personally I'm more on the Destruktokon side of the scales, but ain't nothin' wrong with some Gasildurith in the land of diceless storytelling if that's your speed.

As for Agendas, Paizo's agenda is makin' dem dollah-dollahs and despite delusions of Moral Majority that means women can be barbarians, men can be pornomancers ("face" characters), and lawful good priests of lawful good gods can be totally gay for each other. Because that sells better.

Edit: Also, dosing someone with a gender shift CONTINUES to be, as the ancient scrolls say, "hilarious comedic hijinks, lol."


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
You got hit with a reincarnate spell and came back as a different sex?

RAW Reincarnate doesn't have a sex-switch mechanic. It's purely race. Though I know of a popular homebrew chart that takes ARG races into account and threw in a sex-determinator in as well.

Wiggz wrote:
Jeven wrote:

Coming soon ... the Elixir of Sexuality Shift.

Golarion's evangelicals call if the potion of cure homosexuality.

That would be very interesting to see... but it would never happen. It would be incredibly appropriate from a 'balance' perspective, but somehow I don't think it fits the agenda. You can cast magic that turns someone into a statue forever, into a hideously deformed beast or a fluffy white bunny (right before you crush them beneath your heel), but messing with someone's sexuality? That'd be worse than evil, it'd be... socially conservative.

:-P

Much maligned as I am to make a pithy comment on a subject as sensitive as this. Such an item would definitely make "it's not a choice" arguments a tad unwieldily to use in Golarion. Granted the cost of such an item would easily put it out of the hands of almost everyone ever in that setting.

As to later comments about why similarly-themed items are not just going all the way, I'd say it's likely a combination of American legal and litigation concerns (a lawsuit, even if tenuous, can bring unwanted bad publicity and still significant legal expenses even if beaten in court). Paizo is an American company, subject to such publishing laws, and outright creating such items might offend the sensitivities of people who simply want to bury their head in the sand, not wanting to be challenged in their thoughts, beliefs, and convictions.

Personally I'm in your camp of pretty much going all the way with the thought experiments that can be done with such items. Ideas are just like anything else in this quality, to quote good ole' Urdnot Wrex.

Urdnot Wrex wrote:
Anything that goes unchallenged becomes weak.

That said, much as I'm confident in my ability to GM in such situations, I doubt there are currently very many entire tables that could handle these things. For every transgendered person seeking to emulate the strength and resolve to go through what needs to be done for them to be at peace with themselves, there are still probably a half-dozen players who just want to use the item for things like "making the nobleman who's expected to produce an heir totally wake up next to a dude!"


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Once again, Wiggz, you are so on point it's scary.

With your Kolchak-level investigative reporting, you have discovered and outed our agenda.

Curses!

We had hoped that we could insidiously inject your RPG games with optional social liberalism and inclusivity; options that you could easily opt out of in your own games before you noticed it, but you found us out! The next step to offering inclusive options was totally going to be physically enforcing it at your game table, but we would never get away with that now!

We're deeply sorry that making the game a space where everyone feels welcome and can tell whatever stories they want to has singled you out and made you feel victimized, because you certainly have never personally been catered to in every form of media for the last forever, and now that other kinds of people are being catered to, the world that you know is under attack by our agenda!

Next time, Gadget! Next time!!


Jiggy wrote:
Am I the only one whose reaction to such an item is to figure how to make a delayed-effect version and then "spike" the drinks at wild parties?

Thanks, i now have another idea for a potential sidequest.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Jeven wrote:
Of course, you could flip this on its head and argue that by introducing such an item completely eliminates transexuals (or at least high-level/wealthy transexuals) from the game. They are magically "fixed" and just cease to exist as transexuals, being wholly transformed into the opposite gender. Any ambiguity (which is the condition of real-world transexuals) is removed.

Umm, isn't the only reason transsexuals need their own movement because the current state of medical science is incapable of replicating the effects of this elixir?

Your family should (emphasis on should) be cool with you no matter what you do, and if friends don't accept the change they weren't really friends anyway.

The problem is that a large number of MTFs simply cannot pass as women due to their facial features, bone structure, or what have you, and they cannot acquire a working uterus at present.

Meanwhile, FTMs have far more limited options for corrective surgery, because it's a lot harder to create something that wasn't there than to rearrange something that is, and consequently their medical remedies at present are pretty terrible.

In a perfect world, a person with gender dysphoria could simply say "so, a hormonal trigger was switched on/failed to activate during the first month of gestation, and this procedure is meant to correct that."

But given how messed up gender roles in society are (where women are *ALWAYS* evaluated at least partially based on their suitability as breeding partners even when the context makes that completely and utterly irrelevant [such as Supreme Court Justices]), the unconvincing and surface-level nature of current procedures forces people with gender dysphoria into a cognitive space that acts like an "Uncanny Valley" for bigots.

When medical science catches up with this magic item, the phrase "I was born with different genitals" will be no more relevant than "I was born with a cleft palate." It would just be a biochemical error rectified ages ago, and no one...

While it's nice to think that a magic potion or perfect medical procedure would make all trans problems go away, the social problems would still exist. Parents would still reject their child's actual gender and not allow the use of the perfect procedure until adulthood when they didn't have a say. Friends and co-workers still wouldn't be able to cope with the change. Not to mention laws that still treat trans people as their assigned gender.

For many, even now, the hormonal therapy is more important than surgery in making them feel comfortable in their bodies. A more perfect change would help them pass, but there will still be all sorts of problems with those who knew them before.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Jeven wrote:
JonGarrett wrote:

Why do we have a a Elixir of Sex Shift? Because we have trans people who want to live out there fantasies, just like the rest of us, and sometimes it's simpler than wanting to be a god-like Wizard - they want to be a person who switched there gender easily, cleanly and with no social stigma attached. Truly, a fantasy in this world.

Why don't we have a Elixir of Sexuality Shift? Because people in real life have been forced to change there sexuality, or at least pretend they have, with threats, coercion and torture.
Of course, you could flip this on its head and argue that by introducing such an item completely eliminates transexuals (or at least high-level/wealthy transexuals) from the game. They are magically "fixed" and just cease to exist as transexuals, being wholly transformed into the opposite gender. Any ambiguity (which is the condition of real-world transexuals) is removed.
Check the Shaman iconic. The Elixir of Sex Shift is written rules to explain how she changes her sex to match her gender in-universe.

It is deliberately unclear whether the iconic Shaman has used such a elixir. She has used the magical equivalent of hormone therapy, but nothing beyond that was stated.

Because the current state of her genitals is her business.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why is this item getting so much attention?

It's self explanatory in function, and should it be something you would never use, then why should you care?

Really, why is this even in the rules forum?

It's a make-believe magic item.

Not some allegory for the trails of the transgender community, or a tool of some kind agenda.

Seriously, are we going to say the Decanter of Endless Water is statement about poverty in Africa?

Why are we doing this?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Because all the Wiggzes.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why does item have to represent something?

Why can it not be taken, as is?

Do we need to analyze every magic item, to discover what it represents, and then hypothesize the agenda behind every magic item?

What does the Bag of Everlasting Dung represent? What is the agenda behind such an item?

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