Stop calling ideas stupid


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I'm getting a little pissed off at how many times GW's decision to adopt stationary ranged has been called stupid, dump, lazy, horrendous, and any number of other blatantly derogatory terms. By calling their decision stupid, you are calling the devs stupid by proxy. Its disrespectful. Either stop doing it, or go back to whatever puissant MMO you crawled out from to come troll this one.

These people are staying up all night tonight for you. Show some f%*+ing gratitude.

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I like you, sspitfire, but there's still time to delete this thread.

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Quote:
I think this is a good sign it is time for me to take a little break from the forums. I'm getting a bit too touchy and reactive. I'll be back in time for EE and the newby question onslaught :)

No offense, but you may want to listen to yourself. You know the kind of reaction you can get from this thread and I doubt it is going to be one that is going to make you or anyone else happy.

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I agree with Sspitfire1 in that ideas should not be labeled as stupid, although I don't believe most people are also meaning to imply "therefore the person is stupid".

My first reaction to the rooting of caster / shooters was twofold. First, it does not fix the real problem, the mobs are really, really stupid (I hope to only offend the mobs, and not the Devs that created them). I do understand (now) that the mobs are not there to be much more than a resource node that hits back ("Boards don't hit back" ~ Bruce Lee).

My second reaction was, "Why train short bow?" Well I discovered last night that, even if I were rooted, the short bow provided a wider array in conditions (opportunity and flatfoot) and munch easier criticals than a long bow.

So, for those overly concerned about rooting, don't be as long as you are in at least a small group of 3-4.

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Bluddwolf wrote:

I agree with Sspitfire1 in that ideas should not be labeled as stupid, although I don't believe most people are also meaning to imply "therefore the person is stupid".

My first reaction to the rooting of caster / shooters was twofold. First, it does not fix the real problem, the mobs are really, really stupid (I hope to only offend the mobs, and not the Devs that created them). I do understand (now) that the mobs are not there to be much more than a resource node that hits back ("Boards don't hit back" ~ Bruce Lee).

My second reaction was, "Why train short bow?" Well I discovered last night that, even if I were rooted, the short bow provided a wider array in conditions (opportunity and flatfoot) and munch easier criticals than a long bow.

So, for those overly concerned about rooting, don't be as long as you are in at least a small group of 3-4.

Rooting is a dumb but acceptable temporary solution on the condition that a real solution moves to a top priority position on the todo list. If a real solution cannot be developed by EE then removing interptability on ranged attacks becomes mandatory.

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So, right now resources are being spend on a problem that exists due to the fact that there are not enough resources to finish all of the game systems at the same time. Nice.

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Whether the changes turns ranged fighting into nothing but secondary "Artillary" style support for melee remains to be seen.

I do personally believe making such a drastic untried change to the game that may effectively remove viable play style so close to EE may in retrospect turn out to have been "stupid" but that also remains to be seem.

The worry is the longterm success of the game will turn on its state at EE not 6 months down the track.

Bringing in a change that makes clerics even worse, wizards glass cannon once they lose their current heavy armor and archers just a form of sationary artillary is likely to result in a game that will only appeal to PvP melee fighter types. Making those changes because a few melee people felt their preferred combat technique could not "win" some sort of "NPC kill bragging rights comp" in Alpha is also a little suspect.

Never-the-less regardless of whether a change turns out to be "stupid" that does not mean the people suggesting or implementing the changes are stupid.


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<Kabal>Keign wrote:
Quote:
I think this is a good sign it is time for me to take a little break from the forums. I'm getting a bit too touchy and reactive. I'll be back in time for EE and the newby question onslaught :)
No offense, but you may want to listen to yourself. You know the kind of reaction you can get from this thread and I doubt it is going to be one that is going to make you or anyone else happy.

I'm human, some things are easier said than done.

It is not about whether one side is right or wrong. Its about how the dissenting view (and, in this specific case, the loosing view) treats the other side's arguments. You can disagree without having to use the word "dumb."

bluddwolf wrote:
...although I don't believe most people are also meaning to imply "therefore the person is stupid".

Sometimes the intention is more important than the action, sometimes the action is more important than the intention. In this case, the person who's ideas are being called "stupid" can reasonably be expected to internalize that to themselves (broadly speaking). So the action is more important than the intention.


But yes, "Either stop doing it, or go back to whatever puissant MMO you crawled out from to come troll this one."

"These people are staying up all night tonight for you. Show some f%@#ing gratitude."

Probably not necessary comments.

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While I agree with the message here, the way it's being put forth is pretty much guaranteeing this thread is going to be locked sooner than later.

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sspitfire1 wrote:

But yes, "Either stop doing it, or go back to whatever puissant MMO you crawled out from to come troll this one."

Puissant means having great power or influence. Did you mean pissant?

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WTB "Nerf Flag" so I know which threads to avoid...

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sspitfire1 wrote:

But yes, "Either stop doing it, or go back to whatever puissant MMO you crawled out from to come troll this one."

"These people are staying up all night tonight for you. Show some f%@#ing gratitude."

Probably not necessary comments.

Absolutely not necessary, actually. Though we all make mistakes.


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1. Saying someone's idea is stupid, while generally serving no constructive purpose, does not necessarily imply the person is stupid. Very intelligent people have stupid ideas all the time, just like everyone else.

2.These are people paying for the development of this game, and are also testers. Show some gratitude (see what I did thar?)


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Fierywind wrote:

1. Saying someone's idea is stupid, while generally serving no constructive purpose, does not necessarily imply the person is stupid. Very intelligent people have stupid ideas all the time, just like everyone else.

2.These are people paying for the development of this game, and are also testers. Show some gratitude (see what I did thar?)

yeah I mean, he already did much work with his survey and also setting up experience tables, I don't think anyone thinks he is stupid. I don't.

I probably did say stupid, though. I believe I expounded to say that it doesn't fix any problem and just makes ranged rooted. it makes them more vulnerable in pvp, but it still allows melee fighters to carry longbows and be powerful ranged players that switch and fight. Of course, that issue could have happened before the change.

My issue is just that this issue has made me realize how much is wrong with the game, mechanically. Imbalanced. It will still work, but it's not close to a final product. I guess what I thought was the math and systems behind the game would be sound by this point and the rest would be bug-fixing and upgrades.

I was caught up in the moment and just surprised at how everyone latched on to the rooted idea as if believing it would fix the game.

I want pve to be hard, too, man. It's not gonna be even with rooted ranged. There should at least be SOME hard pve so that skilled players can have more stuff.

I think, as i have said a long time ago, the bad part about a sandbox is a lot of people think it's okay if they just create a system and let the players make the game. Some players even think that's what they want... I dunno. If mob AI/diversity never gets fixed, that's very sad. This change has quieted the angry mob... for now.

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This thread was a stupid idea.

;-p

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Fierywind wrote:

Saying someone's idea is stupid, while generally serving no constructive purpose, does not necessarily imply the person is stupid. Very intelligent people have stupid ideas all the time, just like everyone else. ...

However, saying someone else's idea is stupid is in itself a statement that the speaker truly knows if something is stupid or smart, and the other person doesn't. It is pretty arrogant language.


I only half-agree with that Urman...people have different ways of thinking and looking at things. One person may easily be able to determine whether an idea is bad or not, but struggle with doing the same for other ideas. I agree it's arrogant language, though. Even if an idea is flawed, it isn't necessarily "stupid," and may still be the best solution.


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Ixiolander wrote:
While I agree with the message here, the way it's being put forth is pretty much guaranteeing this thread is going to be locked sooner than later.

That would be fine with me. Deleted would also work. Not a few days ago I was all "we have to have constructive conversation" kinds of righteous, then last night and go all "you all suck" kind of righteous. Bit of a disconnect there. I'm reporting my own thread. You are welcome to join me getting it taken down.

I did mean "pissant", but spell check flagged that and told me to use "puissant" XD

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I continue to like you, sspitfire. (In spite of your silly humanity.)


if someone says my idea is stupid ill feel insulted. there are a lot ways of saying you dont like an idea, some even gentle(then better ones).Also there are a lot of more worrying issues than "archery rooted or not".

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Go read about the mongol archers go watch Legolas in LODR's. After that try telling me rooting ranged attack is not "stupid". The only reason it would not be stupid is if it's temporary. If rooting ends up sticking a lot of elven archers are going to look stupid and so will GW and the community that wrecked their own game.

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Pyronous Rath wrote:
Go read about the mongol archers go watch Legolas in LODR's. After that try telling me rooting ranged attack is not "stupid". The only reason it would not be stupid is if it's temporary. If rooting ends up sticking a lot of elven archers are going to look stupid and so will GW and the community that wrecked their own game.

There is already a keen, and well informed, archer on the programming staff.

The specific changes that have been made are temporary. Some of them may be come permanent later (or variations thereof), if they are needed and prove to be the best way to achieve balance. I don't expect that will be the case.


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Pyronous Rath wrote:
Go read about the mongol archers go watch Legolas in LODR's. After that try telling me rooting ranged attack is not "stupid". The only reason it would not be stupid is if it's temporary. If rooting ends up sticking a lot of elven archers are going to look stupid and so will GW and the community that wrecked their own game.

the lack of hit dice and the fact that you aren't hitting for less than 10s on a powerful mob... unless you are a high-spec archer, is the issue.

The damage is too high across the board. The entry damage is too high. So, what wins? The most range. Expect this to hold true in early pvp as well. No reason why everyone shouldn't start with a longbow, if they're trying to win.

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Pyronous Rath wrote:
Go read about the mongol archers go watch Legolas in LODR's. After that try telling me rooting ranged attack is not "stupid". The only reason it would not be stupid is if it's temporary. If rooting ends up sticking a lot of elven archers are going to look stupid and so will GW and the community that wrecked their own game.

Your two examples are horse archers and a fictional character (who was epic).

Let me try now. "Rooting ranged attacks is not stupid." (Success!)

In my opinion, whether GW makes ranged attacks rooted or not, or if they make it temporary or not, really shouldn't depend on whether some archers in our world used bows from horseback. It shouldn't depend on whether some fictional character immortalized in a movie shot his bow on the move. It should be based simply on: does it work within the game; does it, in balance, make space within the game for archers and melee and spellcasters?


<Kabal>Keign wrote:
I continue to like you, sspitfire. (In spite of your silly humanity.)

Aww... well thank you :3 Silly humanity FTW!


Also, I would rather a) see the thread taken down or b) see it pass away from the top of the boards long before Monday rolls around. There are plenty of threads to continue the debate on. However, it is a toxic thread and a poor example to new players of what our community is like.

There are a number of flagging options that should get Paizo's attention and get them to lock/delete the thread.

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I've never referred to the idea as stupid. It's a poorly conceived, knee-jerk, band-aid fix that does more to allieviate current imbalances than build us toward the best possible product come EE but I didn't say it's stupid, and people don't have to be stupid to come up with and support bad ideas.

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Pyronous Rath wrote:
Go read about the mongol archers go watch Legolas in LODR's. After that try telling me rooting ranged attack is not "stupid". The only reason it would not be stupid is if it's temporary. If rooting ends up sticking a lot of elven archers are going to look stupid and so will GW and the community that wrecked their own game.

Alright, rooting ranged attacks isn't stupid. Presuming you know when you don't know is stupid.

You have a partial expression of a complex system. That is all you know about it and until you see the final whole you do not have the information you need to make any judgment.

Yet you made a judgment about that complex whole in ignorance, and are defending your statement despite the assurances of those who do know.

Do I need to tell you how imbecilic is spelled?

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The change is ill conceived and has huge implications (that were ignored) for players who are not kiting longbow archers.

The only benefit of the change is some indefinable issue about archers getting undeserved epeen. In reality very few people cared that other players with a different style "got more stuff" its not as if people were trying to "win Alpha".

HOWEVER that does not make anyone stupid.

There will always be people going off half cocked with minimal information becasue some issue has got them riled up (wars start that way) but that in no way makes them stupid just ill informed.

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Being wrote:
Pyronous Rath wrote:
Go read about the mongol archers go watch Legolas in LODR's. After that try telling me rooting ranged attack is not "stupid". The only reason it would not be stupid is if it's temporary. If rooting ends up sticking a lot of elven archers are going to look stupid and so will GW and the community that wrecked their own game.

Alright, rooting ranged attacks isn't stupid. Presuming you know when you don't know is stupid.

You have a partial expression of a complex system. That is all you know about it and until you see the final whole you do not have the information you need to make any judgment.

Yet you made a judgment about that complex whole in ignorance, and are defending your statement despite the assurances of those who do know.

Do I need to tell you how imbecilic is spelled?

Oh so now rooting is a part of the future complex system? I thought it was temporary everyone said it was temporary but now you are calling it part of the system. Go look up the game horizons I was part of the beta and they decided to ground ranged attacks. It made ranged attackers useless and they never changed it back or fixed it. My ranger who I had leveled upto 20 or so was now useless.

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One of the things for community members to recall, is that there will be an influx of gamers new to the boards. Some of them will not be familiar with the longstanding pride taken in the overall tone here. Some of them are not only aware of that longstanding pride, but actively despise it. Some of us here are aware that in other forums, this community is considered elitist whether by fervent support of a game system (whether PFRPG or PFO), or our demand for certain level of behaviour on these boards. Some of those gamers will come with the intent of playing games on these forums to "lead us astray". And they will be well practiced at it. Some of the behaviour will be intentional to push your buttons. And the frequency of these will increase as the release of PFO approaches and more discussion occurs on other forums. Be ready for it, stay true to the type of community you want to have, and don't get pulled.

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Pyronous Rath wrote:
Being wrote:
Pyronous Rath wrote:
Go read about the mongol archers go watch Legolas in LODR's. After that try telling me rooting ranged attack is not "stupid". The only reason it would not be stupid is if it's temporary. If rooting ends up sticking a lot of elven archers are going to look stupid and so will GW and the community that wrecked their own game.

Alright, rooting ranged attacks isn't stupid. Presuming you know when you don't know is stupid.

You have a partial expression of a complex system. That is all you know about it and until you see the final whole you do not have the information you need to make any judgment.

Yet you made a judgment about that complex whole in ignorance, and are defending your statement despite the assurances of those who do know.

Do I need to tell you how imbecilic is spelled?

Oh so now rooting is a part of the future complex system? I thought it was temporary everyone said it was temporary but now you are calling it part of the system. Go look up the game horizons I was part of the beta and they decided to ground ranged attacks. It made ranged attackers useless and they never changed it back or fixed it. My ranger who I had leveled upto 20 or so was now useless.

You have described your fear based on experience in another environments and truly there is validity to raising that as a question. There is less validity to asserting it as if it were an answer.

Your past experience, and what you fear, is certainly valid. We don't yet have the knowledge basis to assert such an answer here.

I do value your experience and insights, but it would be better if we explained why we are concerned based on experience, presenting our concerns, but without asserting something that we have been assured is not the case. This temporary measure is a stop-gap until other mechanical elements are present that should ameliorate what would otherwise be a design flaw.

We know that among the designers are experienced professionals. It isn't going to help anything to call them names while pointing out our worries. Getting passionate and slighting the developer is counter-productive. It loses the issue we are trying to voice beneath our own personal issues. Does this make sense to you?

If you were in sitting in a bar across from the game designer would you call him stupid or discuss your concern about what you can so far see in the design?


Being wrote:
Pyronous Rath wrote:
Go read about ....
Alright, rooting ranged attacks isn't stupid...

Being, you are letting Pyronous get to you. Some posts are best ignored. This is the lesson I have been re-learning these past 48 hours.

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Pyronous Rath wrote:
Oh so now rooting is a part of the future complex system? I thought it was temporary everyone said it was temporary but now you are calling it part of the system.

Rooting was always part of the system, just a smaller part. It is now more widespread. When the other mechanisms for range are inserted, the role of rooting will be reduced. Either to where it was before, or to some other point, depending on the needs of the game.

tldr: Rooting always was, and probably always will be part of the game, probably not as much as it will for the next while.

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I have been self testing the whole rooting thing and switching over to melee as soon as the first mob or two reached me.

You will still be able to solo groups of mobs (goblins, bandits and wolves), but not against ogres.

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I put my bow away the other day and have been fighting with my mace since. I've died unexpectedly a couple of times, but other than avoiding multiple yellows or more than two archers in a largish group, I've done pretty well. I had to run away a few times, or back off far enough to lose everybody but one wildlife while curing myself repeatedly to get close to half before reengaging. I've also found it useful to occasionally tab across all nearby targets and hit them once each, just to keep them from running away so I don't have to chase after them when I'm ready.

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Thanks, folks. I haven't been sure what was over-powered about using a bow or staff, especially before ammunition and Encumbrance enter the game.

It felt almost as if people were saying "there's only one way you can play", or variants thereof, but I've been successfully playing a spell-casting Cleric, others've reported success with two-handed weapons, shortbows, and now one-handed weapons. If the argument against bows and staves was based on "boredom", I suggested "just play another way, and let others keep using bows and staves without your will being imposed upon them".

Either way, I've not yet figured out why the stationary-test was necessary, except for one thing I'd observed in person: in a mixed group of ranged and melee characters, the melee people seldom had much to do, as the monsters were chasing one or another the ranged-folks constantly, thus keeping the melee-ers from being able to stay in range long enough to do anything. I'd not figured a way to deal with that, other than having a group be all-melee or all-ranged, which feels artificially and un-necessarily limiting.

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Bluddwolf wrote:

I have been self testing the whole rooting thing and switching over to melee as soon as the first mob or two reached me.

You will still be able to solo groups of mobs (goblins, bandits and wolves), but not against ogres.

The big question for me though, is how do ranged characters perform in PvP? I've be testing things and you can solo kite ogres using all melee range abilities. You just have to put a bit more thought into it.

Not going to describe how because it will just lead to another knee-jerk, band-aid fix targeted at the abilities used instead of real solutions.

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T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Either way, I've not yet figured out why the stationary-test was necessary, except for one thing I'd observed in person: in a mixed group of ranged and melee characters, the melee people seldom had much to do, as the monsters were chasing one or another the ranged-folks constantly, thus keeping the melee-ers from being able to stay in range long enough to do anything. I'd not figured a way to deal with that, other than having a group be all-melee or all-ranged, which feels artificially and un-necessarily limiting.

If this "test' is the result of having observed a mix group using tactics that put the Mobs at a disadvantage, then it is certainly wrong headed.

Here is a test: Take two characters with short bows, and have them attack using the same feats vs one Mob, from opposite sides of the mob.

If they time their attack well enough, the Mob may just stand in one spot until dead.

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T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:


Either way, I've not yet figured out why the stationary-test was necessary, except for one thing I'd observed in person: in a mixed group of ranged and melee characters, the melee people seldom had much to do, as the monsters were chasing one or another the ranged-folks constantly, thus keeping the melee-ers from being able to stay in range long enough to do anything. I'd not figured a way to deal with that, other than having a group be all-melee or all-ranged, which feels artificially and un-necessarily limiting.

I am generally opposed to the change as most people have probably moticed.

However I have not seen this.

I tend to fight a lot in a two person group with another keeper from my time zone and she plays a staff wizard.

Our standard tactic is I run in and start hitting things then almost immediately begin self healing. The healing seems to draw enough aggro for the monsters to stay focussed on me and she then stands back and picks off the bosses. The occasional rare monster that breaks away towards her she is able to kill before it gets to her.

Once the boss monster is gone I switch to whirlwind and finish off the rest.

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Awww...were people kiting?

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Bluddwolf wrote:

...Here is a test: Take two characters with short bows, and have them attack using the same feats vs one Mob, from opposite sides of the mob.

If they time their attack well enough, the Mob may just stand in one spot until dead.

Be difficult to get identical damage given the RNG of the hit rolls, but we've had some pretty funny looking yo-yo'ing going on when 2 party members' threat has alternated back and forth on each hit, resulting in no effective actions by the mob.


Bluddwolf wrote:

I have been self testing the whole rooting thing and switching over to melee as soon as the first mob or two reached me.

You will still be able to solo groups of mobs (goblins, bandits and wolves), but not against ogres.

This has been my experience as well. Level 1 mobs will still be solo-able. I think this is a good thing. A new player will need somewhere to go and may not have the benefit of a group to join.

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<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

...Here is a test: Take two characters with short bows, and have them attack using the same feats vs one Mob, from opposite sides of the mob.

If they time their attack well enough, the Mob may just stand in one spot until dead.

Be difficult to get identical damage given the RNG of the hit rolls, but we've had some pretty funny looking yo-yo'ing going on when 2 party members' threat has alternated back and forth on each hit, resulting in no effective actions by the mob.

This is pretty standard MMO mechanics. I have spent a great many hours watching multiple tanks fight over aggro for pride and giggles, and I'm totally fine with it.

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KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
I tend to fight a lot in a two person group with another keeper from my time zone and she plays a staff wizard.

Sorry, I could've been much clearer. I was watching, and at times participating, in a full six-character group. We also had 1-3 hangers-on most of the time, so lots of characters in one place at once. The melee-ers--I was one that day--seemed to find it hard to accomplish much.

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sspitfire1 wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

I have been self testing the whole rooting thing and switching over to melee as soon as the first mob or two reached me.

You will still be able to solo groups of mobs (goblins, bandits and wolves), but not against ogres.

This has been my experience as well. Level 1 mobs will still be solo-able. I think this is a good thing. A new player will need somewhere to go and may not have the benefit of a group to join.

I am primarily a melee cleric. I tend to equip a longsword and shield and battle focus. Low level groups are demolished by area attacks like whirlwind and cleave.

I have learnt a stack of true spells but only have the one I can actually cast (inflict) due to the problem getting improved divine focus. Inflict a level 1 one-shots most low levels, once I get to cast my level 3s in combat that will change things substantially.

Ogres in melee, I can reliably solo two or sometimes three. with good tactics. so long as there no "red" or "purple" and no Shamans. Groups with one or two runts and a warrior are relatively easy to solo IF you use as I said good tactics.

The main difference with melee is you really need to know feat synergies and have a battle doctrine worked out (this gives opportunity then hit with that which exploits it and this brings in the crit reactive etc etc)

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KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
sspitfire1 wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

I have been self testing the whole rooting thing and switching over to melee as soon as the first mob or two reached me.

You will still be able to solo groups of mobs (goblins, bandits and wolves), but not against ogres.

This has been my experience as well. Level 1 mobs will still be solo-able. I think this is a good thing. A new player will need somewhere to go and may not have the benefit of a group to join.

I am primarily a melee cleric. I tend to equip a longsword and shield and battle focus. Low level groups are demolished by area attacks like whirlwind and cleave.

I have learnt a stack of true spells but only have the one I can actually cast (inflict) due to the problem getting improved divine focus. Inflict a level 1 one-shots most low levels, once I get to cast my level 3s in combat that will change things substantially.

Ogres in melee, I can reliably solo two or sometimes three. with good tactics. so long as there no "red" or "purple" and no Shamans. Groups with one or two runts and a warrior are relatively easy to solo IF you use as I said good tactics.

The main difference with melee is you really need to know feat synergies and have a battle doctrine worked out (this gives opportunity then hit with that which exploits it and this brings in the crit reactive etc etc)

Sound strategy for archers or clerics. What about wizards who will have no armour or melee weapons?

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Pyronous Rath wrote:
Sound strategy for archers or clerics. What about wizards who will have no armour or melee weapons?

I presume you will need to take advantage of the staff range to kill the boss monsters then revert to area spells.

Basically I do not agree with the ranged changes. My argument all along was that the people saying ranged was overpowered just happened to SUCK VERY BADLY at melee.

To my mind "I suck at melee therefore nerf ranged" was never a good argument.

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KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
Pyronous Rath wrote:
Sound strategy for archers or clerics. What about wizards who will have no armour or melee weapons?

I presume you will need to take advantage of the staff range to kill the boss monsters then revert to area spells.

Basically I do not agree with the ranged changes. My argument all along was that the people saying ranged was overpowered just happened to SUCK VERY BADLY at melee.

To my mind "I suck at melee therefore nerf ranged" was never a good argument.

My standpoint is GW took a system that is not great for melee compared to ddo or terra got complaints about melee being difficult and in response rooted ranged combat lmao. Now im trying to keep in mind that this change has been called temporary numerous times. If it stays then it's an omen of whats to come for pfo.

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