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http://hastur.net/wiki/Troop_%28D%26D_creatures%29
I rediscovered this template while looking through old notes, and I'm immediately in love. Planning on having the party face one pretty soon.
In the meantime, has anyone ever used this? How did it go? Any glaring issues that would need to be changed? How did the party react? Opinions and stories are welcome and appreciated.
http://hastur.net/wiki/Troop_%28D%26D_creatures%29
I rediscovered this template while looking through old notes, and I'm immediately in love. Planning on having the party face one pretty soon.
In the meantime, has anyone ever used this? How did it go? Any glaring issues that would need to be changed? How did the party react? Opinions and stories are welcome and appreciated.
Here's an example they give, I think it illustrates the point well
Elven Warband (Troop of Elven warrior 1) CR 6
CG Gargantuan humanoid (troop of Medium elves)
Init +1; Senses Nightvision, Listen +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, Elven
AC 20 (+2 Dex, +3 studded leather, +1 light shield, +4 troop) touch 15, flat-footed 18
Hp 45 (10 HD)
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +2
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee 6 Longsword +6 (1d8+1/19-20)
Ranged 12 longbow +7 (1d8/×3)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +5; Grp +6
Atk Options expert grappler, multiple opportunities
Abilities Str 13, Dex 13, Con 0, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
SQ elf traits, troop anatomy
Feats Weapon Focus (longbow)
Skills Hide -11, Listen +2, Search +3, Spot +2
In general, quasi-swarm rules applied to medium creatures are a good way of making large groups of mooks fearsome again. This looks like a pretty good version of that general idea.
In general, quasi-swarm rules applied to medium creatures are a good way of making large groups of mooks fearsome again. This looks like a pretty good version of that general idea.
The thing that is the most intimidating to me at least is the ranged attacks. 12 longbow arrows a round at +8 atk each is nothing to sneeze at, and if they had the feats to get rapid shot? Yeesh, 24 +6 atk arrows a round, I hope the players have seen 300.
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Also, multiple ranged attacks from lots of mooks already kind of operate like that, since they are all within range of the target, I presume that part of the troop or swarm's charm is that they get a larger attack bonus (so the jerk with a 37 AC doesn't just laugh it off).
Actually, as I understood the troop subtype from looking it over in RoW:B5, you needn't have an attack bonus at all. You've got a large number of enemies attacking a specified area with a plethora of arrows . . . the troop makes no attack at all, and instead you treat it more like an excellent ability: PCs roll a Reflex save for half damage, while those with evasion dodge all of it successfully.
Same goes for melee, except without the save. These are a large swarm of enemies flooding over and around you. There is no attack roll, only damage.
I used a troop of hobgoblin regulars against my PCs just last Tuesday, and they were a hit with my group. They loved it!
Giving your troop shields and allowing them to use bows seems kinda like cheating... because you know their ac isn't going to change depending on if they're using ranged or not.
Be a lot less paperwork if you didn't make it necessary. Lose the shields!
Presumably it's like 12 guys in front with shields, 24 guys in back with longspears or bows, all of them fighting as a single unit.
Historical example: Roman Legions usually opened with thrown javelins before plowing forward with their pike/shield combo.
There's another point though, would rapid shot actually double their attack rate? and should it?
Here's the abilities that the troop gets:
Expert Grappler (Ex): A troop can maintain a grapple without penalty and still make attacks against other targets (normally, attacking other targets while grappling imposes a –20 penalty on grapple checks). A troop is never considered flat-footed while grappling. Multiple
Opportunities (Ex): Each time a troop makes an attack of opportunity, all of the eligible attackers in the troop can make an attack of opportunity.
Troop Anatomy (Ex): Troops are made up of relatively small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have an effect on a troop. Each specific creature that is slain, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects that target specific creatures inflicts damage to the troop equal to the hit points of the base creature. Effects that affect single creatures which do not incapacitate as above have no effect.
Although troops are treated as one creature, it sometimes becomes necessary to determine the fate of a specific individual caught up in the troop. If a troop is dispersed by nonlethal attacks, there are no casualties. If the troop is dispersed by lethal attacks, assume that 30% of its number are slain and 30% are reduced to 0 hit points. To determine a specific individual’s fate, simply roll d%: a result of 01–30 indicates death, 31–60 indicates the victim is reduced to 0 hit points, and a roll of 61–100 indicates the victim escapes relatively unscathed.
Troops take double damage from area attacks that cover at least half the troop's space, that is 8 or more squares in the troop's area.
If that clears anything up. Also they can only attack with either melee or ranged, not both in the same round.
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There is one PFS scenario that used the troop rules (Assault on the Wound). They got pretty thoroughly trashed in the reviews.
I have no clue if it was run correctly, but when I played a single "affects all creatures in the area" spell took it out ( I think it was Burst of Radiance). Others were complaint about the number of deaths that multiple missile attacks on a single target achieve.
Personally, if new rules yield a quicker resolution but approximately the same result as compared to running the same combat with the base rules then I'm fine with them but if they yield a substantially different result then I hate them. And my impression is that the Troop rules yield a very different result
I don't intend on making them a common occurrence, after all fighting as one unit requires a fair bit of training. So this template is intended more for the party facing a lord's elite guard who fight as a phalanx, or an elite squad of Black Shields/swords(medieval term for a mercenary).
As to breaking them up, I'd houserule that you could, though it would be very hard to do, best way would be to use AOE spells or get them to spread out, the 20 squares they occupy can be in any shape as long as they're all attached to at least one other. So if you can get them to spread out you could focus fire at one spot and break the formation.
In what book is this published?
I don't intend on making them a common occurrence, after all fighting as one unit requires a fair bit of training. So this template is intended more for the party facing a lord's elite guard who fight as a phalanx, or an elite squad of Black Shields/swords(medieval term for a mercenary).
As to breaking them up, I'd houserule that you could, though it would be very hard to do, best way would be to use AOE spells or get them to spread out, the 20 squares they occupy can be in any shape as long as they're all attached to at least one other. So if you can get them to spread out you could focus fire at one spot and break the formation.
Maybe allow the Martial types Bull Rush to break through, for every 5 they beat the CMD by, they push through one square. That would make it a tactical choice then, dependent on how thick the lines are. Trying to push through 4 squares? Not likely to make that roll. But 1-2 squares is well within the realm of possibility.
In what book is this published?
I honestly don't know, I do know that it's from 3.5, and I gave a link at the beginning.
-It wouldn't be unreasonable (flavor-wise) if they could do both melee and ranged, though it would probably make the rules of AoO and how many of each attach and such too much of a hassle.
-"All eligible attackers" is kind of vague, Does that actually mean "as many melee attacks as the troop has"?
-Grappling probably ought to have a limit, I mean it might not come up often but it seems like if half the troop is busy grappling the party, it shouldn't have access to as many attacks. On the other hand, we *are* trying to keep things simple.
-I have mixed feelings about some of the rules regarding number of attacks. I mean, RAW you get 50% more attacks by taking the hatchet gang and handing them all short swords.
-Looking at the RAW, it looks like having rapid shot wouldn't affect the group at all. The elves get 12 shots, period, as long as they are still in a troop.
-There is no mention of when or how a troop is dispersed. I assume it is the same as a swarm (though I don't remember that rule off the top of my head) but it needs to be said.
But maybe I'm getting too "homebrew/custom" for General discussion. It's a good idea, probably has room for refinement, most useful for large-scale forces that are using melee attacks because its bonuses don't really improve a contingent of archers' "you will fight in the shade" trick that much.
-A fair point, I'd say that this is up to houserule.
-That's my understanding, so the elf troop would get 6 opp attacks a round.
-I didn't see if it said anything about losing attacks, that would make sense to me, I do see it says that they suffer no penalties and are not flat-footed
-"If a troop uses several different sets of weapons, it might have a different number of attackers with each set. All troop attack in a given round must use the same set of weapons. Attackers attack individually, allowing each of them to make one attack in a charge and to gain extra attacks from special tactics like Two Weapon-Fighting." Given that they can use two-weapon fighting it would make sense to me that they could use rapid shot.
-Huh, you're right, it doesn't say. Well, I personally would say that it can move the 20 sq. ft. or 16 squares around as long as they all connect. Idea of a phalanx spreading out a bit to block off a street.
-When it's HP reaches 0. Though I'd houserule this one based on situation.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype- troop
The current version.
My problem with a lot of the troop or mob rules is that they deal auto damage, I've never liked that mechanic. Here, the example Zombie Mob illustrates my point perfectly:
Huge Undead
Hit Dice: 80d12+120 (640 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares; can’t run)
Armor Class: 11 (–1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2 (+2 for every square mob surrounds target)
Attack: Mob Attack (4d6)
Full Attack: Mob Attack (4d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft
Special Attacks: Distraction (DC 12), Pack Maul
Special Qualities: Single actions only, damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., mob traits, turn resistance +1, undead traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref –1, Will +3
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 8, Con , Int , Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 4
.......
Okay, I'm gonna break down why this is NOT a CR4.
1) 640 freakin HP!? How in the Nine Hells are they supposed to beat that!? My party's level 5 and they still would have a hard time.
2) Automatic 4d6 damage a round........ Do I need to state why this is OP as hell?
Looking at this, if I'm a martial, there is no point having swanky armor, there is no point having a nice shield. As a caster, there is no point casting nice AC buffs or Miss Chance buffs like Mirror Image.
And again, how in any world is 4d6 undodgeable damage a round combined with 640 HP ever considered balanced?
This is why I fell in love with the Troop Template, they actually have to roll to hit you. (le gasp)
Apologies if I'm offending anyone, this is just a sore spot for me and I have never, EVER, liked the swarm rules.
I think when you're making a new Troop, at the end of the day, a Troop is still considered 'one creature' for the purpose of calculating CR, and you should compare with the CR Table to figure out what CR your troop is, and to adjust their offense, defense, save DCs, etc.
The above undead swarm, if it was a Pathfinder Troop, has an unusually high HP and unusually low AC. If I was re-balancing it, I'd first choose the CR, and adjust the HP and AC so its defenses look like a CR equivalent Ooze's defenses.
Actually, treating them like an ooze for CR isn't a bad idea
My biggest problem is that you're citing the 3.5 mob template from the DMG 2. Huge difference in PF. The PF version of that stat lock would have way fewer hit dice and hit points, since undead are now a d8, and the PF version makes 4d6 the MOST damage that you can do. Also, there are no little extras, like the pack maul, etc. PF troops don't get distraction, either.
So, basically, you've got to use the appropriate version from the appropriate game before you level complaints. The PF version is toned way, way down.
It's like jumping on the Wizards' old 3.0 forum and complaining about how much Save vs. Breath Weapons sucks, or how much you hate THAC0