Need some help finding an incentive to use a dagger plz.


Advice


I apologize as this is the third thread I've made in regards to this character idea but this is a tough concept to make and I'm having trouble getting the details straight. I'll start with my concept idea for the character so you can see my rather obvious dilemma. First of all just in case anyone knows the game. This character is going to be based off of Zelos Wilder from Tales of Symphonia. I want to be a jack of all trades when it comes to combat. I want a small amount of healing magic, a small amount of attack magic, and be a decent dex fighter who uses a dagger. Do I expect to be a master at any of these things? No. I want to be able to do exactly what Zelos could do, be a back up healer, a backup with blaster magic, and still be able to jump into the fray and be moderately effective. A tall order indeed. But I think I've got a decent class to focus on for this. A voice of the wild bard gives me healing magic, access to a small number of Druid spells (which are going to be my elemental blasting spells) an average base attack bonus, plenty of reason to have a high Charisma, (which fits well because Zelos was a pretty boy/ playboy) and it gives me an excuse to dance while I fight as that will be my main perform skill. The only thing left is to find some sort of incentive to use a dagger instead of a short sword. I was thinking of losing a bit of spell casting to take 3 or 4 (4 so I don't lose any bab) so that I could use d8 sneak attacks with daggers, thus giving me a reason to use one. Maybe instead of this there are simply feats that pertain specifically to daggers that I'm not aware of? Any thoughts on this build would be appreciated. Keep in mind that while I don't want this character to suck, I'm not tying to make an optimized character by any means. I'm more focusing on making this character fun. Thx in advance.


I'm pretty sure Zelos uses shortswords at worst. In the game art, his weapon is a tad long for a dagger, imo.

Like you said, you're not here to be the most optimized character. If you're truly playing back-up blaster/fighter then you shouldn't worry too much about using a lower-damage weapon. Presumably, the people you'll be supporting with your dancing and spells are much more efficient at killing things.

Just remember to hit on sexy ninja girls and you'll be okay!


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

daggers are quite big actually. stop thinking daggers are supposed to be the size of table cutlery.

anyway, daggers like every other weapon don't effect damage MUCH, so at later levels you can use any weapon you want, with only a few points of damage loss.


I'd go with knife master rogue 3, white mage arcanist 4, arcane trickster x. You get sneak attack, access to both blasting and healing spells, good magic/sneak attack progression.

It's up to the GM if knife master turns ALL sneak attack dice into d8's/d4's, or just dagger master sneak attack dice, and the trickster dice remain d6's. It's not a horrible loss if they do...an average of like 1 damage per 2 levels...but it's worth asking your GM if that's cool. (It's not like even with that you'll end up the combat beast.) If you take 4 levels of rogue, you could use both the knife master and scout archetypes (they stack), and get a sneak attack with every charge attack.

Based on the art that popped up when I googled "Zelos", I have to agree that you're probably working with a short sword, not a dagger. That being said, unlike a dagger, which has multiple damage types, the ability to be thrown, and the dagger master benefits, I can't see ANY advantage to specializing in a short sword, aside from two weapon fighting, which doesn't seem to be that character's bag. I'd stick with the daggers.

Grand Lodge

Archeologist Bard.

No Rogue levels.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
thegreenteagamer wrote:


Based on the art that popped up when I googled "Zelos", I have to agree that you're probably working with a short sword, not a dagger.

the pictures I found had a blade about 1-1/2 feet long (based on comparison to the character's arm), which is in between the listed sizes of dagger and shortsword.


I'd actually suggest a Flying Blade Swashbuckler, as they are a really neat class to use Daggers with. I do not know what prestiege classes you would have or how else you could get the magic mixed in, since I am bad at multiclassing, but the Flying Blade does some really neat things.

Would have to work on that, but Flying Blades themselves are super badasses with Daggers.

Shadow Lodge

I think considering daggers are light weapons, they will fit inside a spring loaded wrist sheathe. So you can have a poor man's Quick Draw.

You can dual wield them, or you can use them in a grapple, or if you're swallowed whole.

Most importantly, the description for a dagger says this:

CRB, Equipment chapter, Dagger wrote:
You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand skill checks made to conceal a dagger on your body.

Shadow Lodge

(i posted this on other thread but since this is the most used lets just use this one, for clarity remove the other ones)
Be a Warpriest and designate dagger as your sacred weapon. It doesnt matter if the weapon dice is low, sacred weapon will make it a 1d6 weapon and it will improve up to a 2d8 weapon.Daggers are good because they can be thrown, so you have a ranged and melee option, river rat trait gives you a +1 damage with dagger so its a good option.
Plus you have 6th level spellscasting, pretty decent and warpriests are good combatants as they can buff themselfs pretty nicely. Cleric spell list give you many offensive blast spells and healing. Incentive for charisma is the new feat which gives you chariesma to saves for divine casters.

Grand Lodge

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Just straight up Archeologist Bard.

Do not multiclass into Rogue.


Don't know the character but what you described could fit an alchemist. (Infused curatives for healing, bombs for blasting, extracts for magic...) Dagger of Doubling is all the reason you need to use a dagger!

Grand Lodge

Ooh, that is an idea.

Grenadier Alchemist, with the Clever Wordplay trait, or Diabolical Negotiator feat.


Well idk about fan art but since he does actually use many types of blades in the game I'm basing my weapon choice on the anime which is definitely a dagger IMO. I'll have to c if white mage arcanist is legal for society play as from what I've read that sounds interesting. Although I would have abysmal bab if I went that route. But for the sake of discussion lets say it is legal. how would I fair bab wise if I whereto go that route? I believe the arcane trickster gets the lowest possible bab if I'm not mistaken.


noble peasant wrote:
Well idk about fan art but since he does actually use many types of blades in the game I'm basing my weapon choice on the anime which is definitely a dagger IMO. I'll have to c if white mage arcanist is legal for society play as from what I've read that sounds interesting. Although I would have abysmal bab if I went that route. But for the sake of discussion lets say it is legal. how would I fair bab wise if I whereto go that route? I believe the arcane trickster gets the lowest possible bab if I'm not mistaken.

It unfortunately does. This is USUALLY made up for by the fact that you are not attacking with weapons, but spells, which target touch AC, which is usually a lot easier to hit. This doesn't really help too much when you're fighting with a dagger, sadly.

Here you run into a dilemma. Which aspect of your character concept is the most important? Is it using the daggers? If that's the case your spell versatility will suffer. Is it your spell/combat ability? You may be better suited specializing in something besides the dagger.

Since Infernal Healing is on just about every arcane caster's list, it will let almost any caster dabble in healing. If you want to keep it simple, you could just play a magus with infernal healing. You could even play an eldrich scion if you want to be particularly charismatic. Since you are playing society by your comment, I will leave out the suggestions for gishing, as that doesn't pay off over the magus until mid-high levels, and society play stops at 12.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Dagger of Doubling is basically the homebrew solution to TWF escalating I've had. Judging by the dagger pricing, it looks like +8k is fair for the ability. Neat.


Why in the world did you make three threads all asking the same question within a *minute* of one another?

You can make sneak attacks with any kind of weapon, even ranged, so that's not really a favor for the dagger. Look into two weapon fighting and have your daggers attached to your character with weapon cords if you're worried about effectiveness in melee.

A bard isn't a feat-intensive character, so going up the TWF chain should be within your reach.


Ok so I'll put the archaist on the back burner for a sec as I'm not liking the serious gimp to bab. Now as for what is the most important? Attack magic and the dagger use. I only need a small amount of healing. Although Infernal healing is a little bit of healing that's just a tad TO little. Although yes I have looked into eldritch scion and think it's a neat archetype. But I want to focus on the war priest right now. I do think its a cool class and fits the character well as he was a chosen of the angels, (who weren't what they seemed to be but he had some angel powers) but elementalxx said there was blasting spells on the cleric spell list. Since I've never been a cleric I decided to run through at least up to third level spells. I only saw one attack spell called searing light at 3rd level. Am i missing some of the attack spells they have or something?


Warpriest of a god who's favored weapon is Dagger. It makes your daggers start as D6 weapon and scale higher w/ levels. Cleric spells + swift action self buffing. Divine Favor with the Fate's Favored trait is fun.


Don't get me wrong I've thought about a war priest with a light weapon before but I'm not seeing enough attack spells. I know that's not what divine casting is about but Elementalxx mentioned that they had some blasting spells. Am I missing them? Are they simply in a book I don't have? If I can find at least a few more attack spells I'll go warpreist. But I just don't see them.


The two big advantages of the dagger over the shortsword are that it's easier to conceal and it can be thrown. However, there is one other point that needs to be addressed here: the average difference between d4 and d6 damage dice is only 1 point of damage per hit. This might be significant for the first few levels of your career, but won't stay meaningful for long. I wouldn't lose sleep over this, and would pay more attention to other parts of your build.

Do not multi-class. Especially if you want to do blasts, you must keep your caster level maximized to remain competent.


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There is a trait, river rat I think it is, that increases damage with daggers by 1.


Like what Dasrak said, weapon damage dice become pretty insignificant as you get more levels. If you'd prefer to use a dagger in a combat, then use one!

Dark Archive

Feat: Deific Obedience(Pharasma) increases dagger damage by 2(and give you some cool abilities at higher levels), the trait river rat will increase it by 1 more making your average damage 5.5(equal to a katana). Taking the magical knack trait and taking 2 levels in Brawler will keep your caster level up and give you the ability to two weapon fight with a single dagger(more attacks and appropriate to the character if I remember right).


If you choose the right domain for a cleric, or the right mystery or curse as an oracle, it adds more blast-y spells to your list. Some typical options are fire domain or flame oracle to add fireball, etc.

Warpriest doesn't seem to have that option.

Here's the rub, np. You've got healing magic, blaster magic, and fighting. Choose two. Three ain't happening viably. You can DO all three, but you're probably going to suck at two of them if you try.

Blasting/Fighting: Magus, various combos into Eldrich Knight

Healing/Blasting: white mage arcainst, cleric with a blasty domain, oracle with a blasty curse and/or mystery

Healing/Fighting: any 3/4 or full bab class with "cure" spells on the list. This includes your original idea of using a bard.

Note I didn't say "Dagger Fighting". Really, if you go that route, you're going to have to focus on...well, dagger fighting. There's just no other class or archetype that rewards daggers specifically like the knife master rogue.

EDIT: There are some classes/prestiges that reward "light weapons" specifically, like the Swashbuckler and Duelist, but they are -very- specific, and definitely do not cover your "generalist in combat" approach.


Deific Obedience (Pharasma) increases dagger attack by 2, not damage. Still useful if your character would worship Pharasma if you can afford the feat in your build though.

As Dasrak said, there is only 1 damage difference between short sword and dagger; and the River Rat Trait that Umbranus brought up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/river-rat) does give +1 damage to daggers, making up the difference at the cost of a trait that also gives you Swim as a class skill (which Bard wouldn't otherwise get).


noble peasant wrote:
Don't get me wrong I've thought about a war priest with a light weapon before but I'm not seeing enough attack spells. I know that's not what divine casting is about but Elementalxx mentioned that they had some blasting spells. Am I missing them? Are they simply in a book I don't have? If I can find at least a few more attack spells I'll go warpreist. But I just don't see them.

A Warpriest won't use 'attack spells' they focus on taking those clerical spells and self buffing as a swift action. ANY prepared spell can be cast as a swift action affecting only the Warpriest.

So you only memorize buffs, healing and cures you might be using.

Why cast an attack spell when you can self buff and smash... and the look on the rest of the group when the 'cleric' cast bless and it only affects the 'cleric'...

Priceless...


River Rat trait gives +1 damage with daggers. They can also be thrown weapons so you can attack at range if necessary. Maybe go Cult Leader and TWF so you can sneak attack. Trickery blessings would go well with that.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm unfamiliar with the stories you are basing the character on, so keep that in mind.

Best reason for a dagger is because you want to be able to conceal the weapon. Consider the difference in Sleight of Hand modifiers for a dagger vs a great sword. See page 105 of CRB for the basics of concealing a small or light weapon.

You will want the Quickdraw feat in order to be able to make use of thrown and melee dagger.

Not all weapons are exactly the same size. Your character could reasonably claim a short sword as an oversized dagger. It would give you an opportunity to quote the line from Crocodile Dundee.

Dagger is also one of the weapons of choice for a wizard. Put some skill ranks into UMD and stay on the lookout for an interesting wizard dagger.

Scarab Sages

I'll third the warpriest idea. Cult Leader is a good choice here, as it trades heavy armor and bonus combat feats for sneak attack.

Even if you don't take warpriest, the river rat trait makes a dagger do the same average damage as a shortsword, and you can still throw it when you need to.

Shadow Lodge

You could also get blasting spells trought use magic device and wands. In any case warpriest is the only incentive for using a dagger, other than beign a daggermaster rogue.

Maybe use a dervish dancer bard? and say its a big dagger?

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Merged all threads together :)


Ah Thx Chris Lambertz! I would have done it myself if I knew how.

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