Phalanx Soldier 3+ swashbuckler 1 + slashing grace work ?


Rules Questions


While wielding any shield (a buckler) a 3rd level phalanx soldier can use any polearm as a one-handed weapon. So swashbuckler's finesse should work on it. But would slashing grace, too?

The idea is to start out with buckler + shortspear (one-handed and piercing)and later replace it with a polearm (one that deals slashing damage). If I choose the nodachi (p and s and in the polearm weapon group) I could use it once I have the Phalanx soldier ability, in case I do not yet have slashing grace.

Grand Lodge

This was in the advice forum, but reading through HERE should give you your answer.


I'm not sure why the Nodahci is listed in the polearms weapons group. It was a long bladed weapon, essentially a very long katana, but not really a polearm. Regardless it does appear to included, so by the rules that part is okay.

However, the Nodachi is a two handed weapon. Just because you can use it as a one-handed weapon does not mean it qualifies for weapon finesse. It is still a two-handed weapon. It also will not qualify for slashing grace for the same reasons.

Even if you get weapon versatility none of the weapon in the polearm class are one-handed finessable weapons. So they will never qualify for use with Swashbucklers Finesse or Slashing Grace.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:

I'm not sure why the Nodahci is listed in the polearms weapons group. It was a long bladed weapon, essentially a very long katana, but not really a polearm. Regardless it does appear to included, so by the rules that part is okay.

However, the Nodachi is a two handed weapon. Just because you can use it as a one-handed weapon does not mean it qualifies for weapon finesse. It is still a two-handed weapon. It also will not qualify for slashing grace for the same reasons.

Even if you get weapon versatility none of the weapon in the polearm class are one-handed finessable weapons. So they will never qualify for use with Swashbucklers Finesse or Slashing Grace.

I have to disagree. I think it would work.

From Phalanx Fighter - "At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon".

It doesn't say only that he can wield it in one hand without penalty, it says that he can wield it as a one-handed weapon. Therefore it (and any slashing polearm) would count as a one-handed weapon for them in every way, including applying the swashbuckler's finesse & slashing grace.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
It doesn't say only that he can wield it in one hand without penalty, it says that he can wield it as a one-handed weapon. Therefore it (and any slashing polearm) would count as a one-handed weapon for them in every way, including applying the swashbuckler's finesse & slashing grace.

That's really the crux of the question. I don't think it does apply that way. What type of weapon things are is based on the entry in the equipment section, how you wield it is how you wield it. I don't think the Phalanx ability changes this.

If someone has evidence to support whether or not these weapons are treated in all ways as a one-handed weapon or whether only for the purposes of wielding I would be open to seeing it.

Until I see evidence that it changes all aspects of the weapon to be a one handed weapon I stand by my position that it doesn't work.


By RAW it would work. The 3rd level Phalanx fighter treats the pole arm as if it were a one handed weapon. Swashbuckler finesse and slash grace apply to one handed weapons. In the hands of 3rd level phalanx fighter the pole arm is a one handed weapon. The condition is met so it works.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Relevant FAQ here.

Shadow Lodge

Slashing Grace wrote:


Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Phalanx Fighting wrote:


At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon.

Enfasis mine, the feature doesnt change the weapon category nor it lets you treat the weapon one handed for feats since it doesnt specify it. It does specify beign able to use it as a one handed weapon, which normally wouldnt be possible.


On reflection, I would argue that it wouldn't work simply based on the fact that the first line of Slashing Grace instructs you to 'choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon'. If that clause wasn't there and it simply said 'when wielding a one-handed slashing weapon...' then it would work, no question. But as it is, you're being forced to pick the weapon to use slashing grace with in general before you're allowed to go ahead and start using the benefits - and you're required to pick that weapon from the category of 'one-handed slashing weapons'.

In theory, to make it work by RAW you would literally have to be in the act of wielding the weapon as a one handed weapon along with a shield at the time you chose your slashing grace weapon, and that would still only work if you assume that that FAQ dealing with Strength and Power Attack would extend all the way to changing the general category of the weapon based on the clause '...how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.'

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, Swashbuckler's Finesse would work fine.

Slashing Grace(Sibat) + Martial Versatility, would mean dex to damage with a Longspear.

Shadow Lodge

Yes is true Martial Versatility works, in fact trought that combination it can provide dex to damage to almost any kind of weapon


voska66 wrote:
By RAW it would work. The 3rd level Phalanx fighter treats the pole arm as if it were a one handed weapon. Swashbuckler finesse and slash grace apply to one handed weapons. In the hands of 3rd level phalanx fighter the pole arm is a one handed weapon. The condition is met so it works.

Using a weapon one handed does not make it a one-handed weapon.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Relevant FAQ here.

Unless "and so on" covers this (which isn't clear) then this FAQ covers how the weapon is wielded and what changes due to that.

I think there is not enough information to conclude that this works. Look at the lance for instance. Despite being capable of wielding in one hand while mounted, it gets two-handed power attack because it is a two-handed weapon and likes the line that says to treat it as a one-handed weapon for wielding.

To me, the weapon's category and how you can wield (due to special abilities) are two separate things and without more clarification I don't think wielding a weapon one-handed counts as changing a two-handed weapon into a one-handed weapon.


it does in that specific characters hands


The specific wording for it to work is "wield as a 1-handed weapon" as opposed to "may wield it 1-handed". Because wielding it one handed(like the lance is) means that the FAQsays it still does 1.5 str, and gets 3for1 power attack. Wielding as a 1-handed weapon means 2for 1 power attack, and 1x Str.

With the thunder and fang feat, and the right martial versatility, i can slashing grace an earthbreaker. I can also make it work for a longspear, all monk weapons, etc.


But a one handed weapon wielded in two hands is treated as a two handed weapon for things like strength to damage and power attack. Why should this be different?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Flawed wrote:
But a one handed weapon wielded in two hands is treated as a two handed weapon for things like strength to damage and power attack. Why should this be different?

Bastard Swords.


lots of people keep forgetting, you're lvl 3 Phalanx Soldier is wielding their polearm/spear "as a one-handed weapon."

This means for that specific character polearms and spears ARE one handed weapons. This applies to Slashing Grace for weapons like the Naginata because Naginatas are one-handed weapons in that characters hands.

Shadow Lodge

Diminuendo wrote:

lots of people keep forgetting, you're lvl 3 Phalanx Soldier is wielding their polearm/spear "as a one-handed weapon."

This means for that specific character polearms and spears ARE one handed weapons. This applies to Slashing Grace for weapons like the Naginata because Naginatas are one-handed weapons in that characters hands.

This is is not "when you weild a one handed weapon...". The feat asks you to choose a one handed weapon. Polearms cant be chosen because they are not one handed weapons

Sovereign Court

ElementalXX wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:

lots of people keep forgetting, you're lvl 3 Phalanx Soldier is wielding their polearm/spear "as a one-handed weapon."

This means for that specific character polearms and spears ARE one handed weapons. This applies to Slashing Grace for weapons like the Naginata because Naginatas are one-handed weapons in that characters hands.

This is is not "when you weild a one handed weapon...". The feat asks you to choose a one handed weapon. Polearms cant be chosen because they are not one handed weapons

They are when you're a level 3 phalanx soldier.

Shadow Lodge

No they are not

..use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon...

You can use a longsword as a two handed weapon, does this means longswords are two handed weapons? No , not really


The Bastard Sword FAQ has some interesting comments on the topic.

FAQ:
(...)For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

If you have exotic weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword, then the sword qualifies for Slashing Grace. If you only have Martial Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, it does not qualify for Slashing Grace but it does qualify for Shield of Swings.

If we apply the same logic to the phalanx soldier ability, then a two-handed polearm wielded one-handed by a phalanx soldier would be treated as a one-handed weapon.


Kudaku wrote:

The Bastard Sword FAQ has some interesting comments on the topic.

** spoiler omitted **[/i]

If you have exotic weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword, then the sword qualifies for Slashing Grace. If you only have Martial Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, it does not qualify for Slashing Grace but it does qualify for Shield of Swings.

If we apply the same logic to the phalanx soldier ability, then a two-handed polearm wielded one-handed by a phalanx soldier would be treated as a one-handed weapon.

good arguement!

Think of it this way; the lvl 3 phalanx soldier with a buckler is playing by a very simular but different set of rules to everyone else: The only difference is spears and polearms are concidered a one handed weapon.


Are people having different arguments here masquerading as one? You can't specifically choose a polearm for Slashing Grace because it isn't a one-handed slashing weapon. But if you use Martial Versatility to apply Slashing Grace to it through a weapon that qualifies for the feat then it works. Just because you can use X as Y under certain conditions doesn't mean X is Y.

Put another way, you can choose 'Bastard Sword' when you take Slashing Grace because it's listed under the heading "One-Handed Weapons" in the rules; if you use it in both hands then you fail to meet the conditions of the feat at that time, but you've still chosen it. You can't choose a weapon that doesn't appear under "One-Handed Weapons" for Slashing Grace - even if you're a level 3+ Phalanx Soldier - because its still not a One-Handed Weapon. It's just a Two-Handed weapon that you're allowed to use as if it was One-Handed when you meet the right conditions. If Phalanx Fighting said something like "At level 3, Polearms and Spears are One-Handed Weapons for a Phalanx Soldier" then it would work.


You seem right, the problem is being not able to choose the weapon.


BadBird wrote:

Are people having different arguments here masquerading as one? You can't specifically choose a polearm for Slashing Grace because it isn't a one-handed slashing weapon. But if you use Martial Versatility to apply Slashing Grace to it through a weapon that qualifies for the feat then it works. Just because you can use X as Y under certain conditions doesn't mean X is Y.

Put another way, you can choose 'Bastard Sword' when you take Slashing Grace because it's listed under the heading "One-Handed Weapons" in the rules; if you use it in both hands then you fail to meet the conditions of the feat at that time, but you've still chosen it. You can't choose a weapon that doesn't appear under "One-Handed Weapons" for Slashing Grace - even if you're a level 3+ Phalanx Soldier - because its still not a One-Handed Weapon. It's just a Two-Handed weapon that you're allowed to use as if it was One-Handed when you meet the right conditions. If Phalanx Fighting said something like "At level 3, Polearms and Spears are One-Handed Weapons for a Phalanx Soldier" then it would work.

Answer me this: does Improved Critical make your sword sharper? Or how about Weapon Training?

If not then we have established Feats and Class Abilites are able to alter wielded weapon properties.

Which means that my polearm is a one-handed weapon in the hands of my phalanx fighter specifically.

Which means Slashing Grace can be applied to it.


So when your Phalanx Fighter takes the feat and chooses a Polearm type for Slashing Grace, is he choosing one of his size? When he takes the feat and chooses a Polearm type is he wielding a shield? Or are these questions kind of absurd because they confuse something applied to very specific conditions with taking a feat that selects a general category?

Diminuendo wrote:
...we have established Feats and Class Abilites are able to alter wielded weapon properties.

Agree. And as I said above: If Phalanx Fighting said something like "At level 3, Polearms and Spears are One-Handed Weapons for a Phalanx Soldier" then it would work.


As I GM I would totally rule that once the shield is removed from the equation that Slashing Grace does not apply, as the polearm is now a two handed weapon. you want to stop that dex-to-hit madness? Sunder the bracer! this is how you punish a dex build with negitve strength!

The class feature clearly says I "can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon," what I dont see is a "except for feat prerequisites."

It might not say

BadBird wrote:
"At level 3, Polearms and Spears are One-Handed Weapons for a Phalanx Soldier"

word for word, but the way I read it says the same thing in different words (when wielding a shield)


Meh, agree to disagree. I have no problem with the idea at all, I just enjoy having a glass of wine and applying ruthless legal logic to things from time to time. The issue is that at the very least, the polearm type chosen has to be a one-handed weapon for Jimmy Phalanx while he's sitting in the tub selecting his new feat; it's not good enough that an actual polearm he's wielding in the right situation becomes a one-handed weapon for a while.

Dark Archive

Claxon wrote:
I'm not sure why the Nodahci is listed in the polearms weapons group. It was a long bladed weapon, essentially a very long katana, but not really a polearm. Regardless it does appear to included, so by the rules that part is okay.

The Pathfinder Nodachi is a Nagamaki.


But if you choose the Sibat for Slashing grace, a 1h slashing weapon, and then also choose that for Martial Versatility, then you can now use slashing grace to any polearm based on the rules while wielding polearm with the Phalanx Fighter ability.


Swashbuckler's Finesse would work. Slashing Grace would not.

In terms of Slashing Grace, the weapon must be in the one-handed slashing weapon category, regardless of how it's wielded. Also remember to have Slashing Grace apply to a weapon you need weapon focus with it, so at minimum Martial Versatility would have to be taken twice, as it does not let you ignore prereq's, and even then it leaves a sour taste to me.

That's my take.

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