Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers takes a look at video games


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Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:

On a separate note, I'll say that whenever I hear words like "privilege" and "patriarchy" (or any other "YOUR people are actively conspiring to screw MY people" term) I instantly assume the discussion became a pointless and unproductive victim-hood contest.

I'm white, male and straight... And I was born and raised in Brazil, meaning I'm Latin too. So what am I? Privileged or a member of a oppressed minority? If you ask me, I'm neither. I'm just a guy doing his best to live a comfortable and fulfilling life, and like everyone else, I occasionally have to deal with people who dislike me, some of them will have a reason for that, and others won't.

Maybe I'm an odd case, but as far as I know, no one ever harmed me because of my nationality, neither in the US nor in England (where my sister lives, so I visit the country once in a while). I've been called "cracker" on a few occasions, though.

What do you LOOK like?, because that's generally the key thing. If you pass for, speak like, and dress like a whitebread American, you'll probably be treated as such, which means you are in the privileged racial caste, and I assume you have the plus of being male. which means.

1. You're more likely to be hired for a given job.

2. You're less likely to be put in the position of being assumed a crook or felon until you prove otherwise.

3. You're more likely to be promoted than you're colored or female colleague, much less your female colored colleague.

These are facts.. White Privilege generally means not being treated like a third class citizen.


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Lemmy wrote:
And I was born and raised in Brazil, meaning I'm Latin too.

Woo! South America in da house <Chilean-Brazilian highfive>

Lemmy wrote:
Maybe I'm an odd case, but as far as I know, no one ever harmed me because of my nationality (although I did hear some funny observations like "You're Brazilian? I didn't know there were white people in Brazil!" and "But I thought all Brazilians were Mexican!"... Yeah, someone actually thought "Mexican" was a race!), neither in the US nor in England (where my sister lives, so I visit the country once in a while). I've been called "cracker" on a few occasions, though.

It's like the time we had a group of girls from the US and Canada for a university exchange here in Chile tell us in frank surprise "It SNOWS here? But this is South America!".

They honestly thought everything south of Texas was a different variation of Mexico.

They were pretty nice people, though.


LazarX wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

On a separate note, I'll say that whenever I hear words like "privilege" and "patriarchy" (or any other "YOUR people are actively conspiring to screw MY people" term) I instantly assume the discussion became a pointless and unproductive victim-hood contest.

I'm white, male and straight... And I was born and raised in Brazil, meaning I'm Latin too. So what am I? Privileged or a member of a oppressed minority? If you ask me, I'm neither. I'm just a guy doing his best to live a comfortable and fulfilling life, and like everyone else, I occasionally have to deal with people who dislike me, some of them will have a reason for that, and others won't.

Maybe I'm an odd case, but as far as I know, no one ever harmed me because of my nationality, neither in the US nor in England (where my sister lives, so I visit the country once in a while). I've been called "cracker" on a few occasions, though.

What do you LOOK like?, because that's generally the key thing. If you pass for, speak like, and dress like a whitebread American, you'll probably be treated as such, which means you are in the privileged racial caste, and I assume you have the plus of being male. which means.

1. You're more likely to be hired for a given job.

2. You're less likely to be put in the position of being assumed a crook or felon until you prove otherwise.

3. You're more likely to be promoted than you're colored or female colleague, much less your female colored colleague.

These are facts.. White Privilege generally means not being treated like a third class citizen.

I have also read that light-skinned African-Americans in the United States move more easily, so to speak, in this civilization than dark-skinned African Americans. Which I believe, although anyone with a black forebear in the last few generations is considered black in this country, even people like Colin Powell, whose skin is lighter than that of many white people.


Klaus van der Kroft wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
And I was born and raised in Brazil, meaning I'm Latin too.
Woo! South America in da house <Chilean-Brazilian highfive>

High five! I visited Chile a few times! Love your country! I actually lived there for a while, although I wouldn't be able to remember anything from that time, since that happened when I was 2~3 years old and only for a few months (I think... I don't remember much of the stories that my father told me) :P.

Lemmy wrote:

It's like the time we had a group of girls from the US and Canada for a university exchange here in Chile tell us in frank surprise "It SNOWS here? But this is South America!".

They honestly thought everything south of Texas was a different variation of Mexico.

They were pretty nice people, though.

Heh... It's funny to find out what people imagine of places they don't know. A friend of mine told me of a time when he visited China, and an old Chinese couple he met thought that the American streets were literally made of gold!


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LazarX wrote:

What do you LOOK like?, because that's generally the key thing. If you pass for, speak like, and dress like a whitebread American, you'll probably be treated as such, which means you are in the privileged racial caste, and I assume you have the plus of being male. which means.

1. You're more likely to be hired for a given job.

2. You're less likely to be put in the position of being assumed a crook or felon until you prove otherwise.

3. You're more likely to be promoted than you're colored or female colleague, much less your female colored colleague.

These are facts.. White Privilege generally means not being treated like a third class citizen.

I suppose I could pass as a "whitebread" American... If I don't speak. And never tell anyone my name (To be fair, my name is very unusual in Brazil too. The first person I ever met who had the same name as I was Russian! And this was in an online game). I do have an accent and occasionally mispronounce words. I don't try to hide (or flaunt) the fact that I was born in Brazil.

If a "whitebread American" cop stops me for going over the speed limit, will he look at me and think "He's white! Better let him go!" or will he listen to my accent and think "He's Latino! Better take him in!"?

The only unusual reaction I had to my C.V. was when I spent December/January visiting my sister and took the opportunity to go on an interview for a short internship. The interviewer said "You're Brazilian? You speak fluent Spanish, then?". I told him that while I have a pretty good Spanish, in Brazil we speak Portuguese (which is very similar to Spanish, actually, and part of the reason why learning Spanish was so easy for me).

That's the one and only time my nationality ever came up in a job interview.


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Alright, I watched the stinking video (when you Summon Comrade Anklebiter, Dicey the House Goblin "just shows up" to see what's going on) and here's what I'll say: I far prefer "Concernocrat" to "Social Justice Warrior" as a pejorative term for those I disagree with. Beyond that, I have no opinion.

Oh wait, I too think that a person has to have done more than play a video game once a week to deserve the classification "Gamer," but that's sample methodology for you.


Lemmy wrote:
LazarX wrote:

What do you LOOK like?, because that's generally the key thing. If you pass for, speak like, and dress like a whitebread American, you'll probably be treated as such, which means you are in the privileged racial caste, and I assume you have the plus of being male. which means.

1. You're more likely to be hired for a given job.

2. You're less likely to be put in the position of being assumed a crook or felon until you prove otherwise.

3. You're more likely to be promoted than you're colored or female colleague, much less your female colored colleague.

These are facts.. White Privilege generally means not being treated like a third class citizen.

I suppose I could pass as a "whitebread" American... If I don't speak. And never tell anyone my name (To be fair, my name is very unusual in Brazil too. The first person I ever met who had the same name as I was Russian! And this was in an online game). I do have an accent and occasionally mispronounce words. I don't try to hide (or flaunt) the fact that I was born in Brazil.

The only unusual reaction I had to my C.V. was when I spent December/January visiting my sister and took the opportunity to go on an interview for a short internship. The interviewer said "You're Brazilian? You speak fluent Spanish, then?". I told him that while I have a pretty good Spanish, in Brazil we speak Portuguese (which is very similar to Spanish, actually, and part of the reason why learning Spanish was so easy for me).

That's the one and only time my nationality ever came up in a job interview.

Look into the concept of "intersectionality", which essentially goes deeper into privilege by examining the way different forms of privilege interact.

At a guess, you have white privilege (based on appearance. You probably have this in Brazil as well. I'm not specifically up on Brazil, but it's common throughout Latin America for privilege to come with lighter skin color. It's usually more nuanced than it is the US.)
If you're male, you have male privilege.
If you speak with a notable accent, you'll lack privilege (there has to be a better way to say that), as you will for being Latino.
There's also class privilege which is often more important.

Generally these all don't really stack, but also don't replace each other.


Lemmy wrote:


High five! I visited Chile a few times! Love your country! I actually lived there for a while, although I wouldn't be able to remember anything from that time, since that happened when I was 2~3 years old and only for a few months (I think... I don't remember much of the stories that my father told me) :P.

Ooh, that means you have some Chilean in you, which makes us practically brothers ("Ya veras como quieren en Chile al amigo cuando es extranjero" and all that).

I've had the pleasure of visiting your lovely country several times (I sell olive oils to some guys in Rio and Sao Paulo) and man do I love it, from your rodizios to your garotas to your moquecas do camarao! It is almost enough to forgive you for all the times you've beat us in football.

Almost.


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thejeff wrote:

Look into the concept of "intersectionality", which essentially goes deeper into privilege by examining the way different forms of privilege interact.

At a guess, you have white privilege (based on appearance. You probably have this in Brazil as well. I'm not specifically up on Brazil, but it's common throughout Latin America for privilege to come with lighter skin color. It's usually more nuanced than it is the US.)
If you're male, you have male privilege.
If you speak with a notable accent, you'll lack privilege (there has to be a better way to say that), as you will for being Latino.
There's also class privilege which is often more important.

Generally these all don't really stack, but also don't replace each other.

That's odd... In over 27 years of existence, I never felt privileged or victimized. Like I said, there are people who like me and people who dislike me. Some treat me better, others treat me worse. Some of them have a reason for this, others don't. I'm willing to bet the same happens to everyone else on the world.

While I'm sure that certain groups have better opportunities than others, I'm also sure that the gap is very often exaggerated in these discussions, often because of the current victim-worship culture that permeates western society. It seems many people enjoy being seen as victims.


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Lemmy wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Look into the concept of "intersectionality", which essentially goes deeper into privilege by examining the way different forms of privilege interact.

At a guess, you have white privilege (based on appearance. You probably have this in Brazil as well. I'm not specifically up on Brazil, but it's common throughout Latin America for privilege to come with lighter skin color. It's usually more nuanced than it is the US.)
If you're male, you have male privilege.
If you speak with a notable accent, you'll lack privilege (there has to be a better way to say that), as you will for being Latino.
There's also class privilege which is often more important.

Generally these all don't really stack, but also don't replace each other.

That's odd... In over 27 years of existence, I never felt privileged or victimized. Like I said, there are people who like me and people who dislike me. Some treat me better, others treat me worse. Some of them have a reason for this, others don't. I'm willing to bet the same happens to everyone else on the world.

While I'm sure that certain groups have better opportunities than others, I'm also sure that the gap is very often exaggerated in these discussions, often because of the current victim-worship culture that permeates western society. It seems many people enjoy being seen as victims.

That's the thing about privilege. (And possibly why it's a bad term) For people born with it, it seems like the default state. It's easy to assume everyone gets treated that way.


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Jeff, speaking for myself here, I don't think the existence or prevalence of discrimination based on race, gender, culture or what have you (which in turn gives way to the concept of privilege) is false; we can totally agree it does exist and the horrible things it makes some people do and experience.

What causes irritation and resentment, however, is the shotgun-blast manner in which the term is freely applied to anyone who happens to meet the perceived requeriments for privilege, in contrast to actually being benefited by it. It is a pretty concrete case of correlation vs causality.

It may very well be the case that a white man got a job instead of a black woman because of both skin and gender discrimination, but it may just as well be the case the guy got the job because he was a better candidate. Or, even more so, maybe all other applicants were also white men. Or he was the only applicant. Or the reviewer just found him funnier.

The degree of prevalence of discrimination is measured statistically, which means not every case is necessarily the result of one person benefiting from it while another is negatively affected.

Problem is, it is not unusual (specially not online these days, with the waters as tumultuous as they seem to be) to see someone telling someone else that he has privilege, when in truth what should be said is that he meets the criteria for privilege. However, it is rarely implied that way, instead going for the "If you think you are not benefiting from privilege, then you're wrong, because privilege exists", and not uncommonly growing into an all-out "And if you disagree, well, you're part of the problem". We can see how such a thing can easily get out of hand, even if the person making the accusation was well-meaning.

Maybe the guy saying he hasn't benefited from privilege actually hasn't. Maybe he has and doesn't know it. Whichever the case, "check your privilege" has really gotten to the point of acquiring a discriminatory weight of its own, like Auxomalous points out. It doesn't take more than a few clicks through places like Tumblr to find all manners of examples that really draw into the ridicule.

This doesn't mean there isn't privilege, or that fighting against it is wrong. Not at all. It exists, it's bad, and it should totally be fought. I'm pretty certain that a big chunk of the more virulent "check your privileges" crowd (the one that goes all the way into claiming all men should be castrated to make us less rape-prone or declare that white guys have no right to participate in gender discussions) is just co-opting the cause to express their own hate, as hate is quite good at using nice things and ideals to hide itself.

And it's precisely because of that that one cannot just dismiss those who feel bothered by claims of privilege as merely mistaken (or outright racist/sexist/whateverist) people, because the term has started to become poisonous to some, even if it is being used with no ill-will by the majority.

Internet has a way to magnify these things and exacerbate the negative qualities, which makes the bad apples misusing the privilege tag look more like bad watermellons. But that still can change the perceived value and implications of a tag, which I believe is what happening to terms like privilege and rape-culture, to the point they start to feel like just another type of discrimination.


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Spoiler to not stomp on the actual thread topic:
thejeff wrote:
Since your succinct summary doesn't match either the links or mechaPoet's summary, primarily by being completely dismissive and explicitly saying it doesn't make you a racist, just that you wind up ignoring racial problems, but you claim it does, you're either not understanding or refusing to.

Here is the basic logic presented in the linked articles. I tried to present it in the best light I could:

1. I am a white male (A)
2. I don't treat people differently based on their color (B)
3. If I am a white male, then I am privileged (If A, then C)

Link 2 wrote:
The invented supremacy of whiteness has provided us with privilege and power in politics, social institutions, and our personal and professional lives, making it a positive issue and, by extension, easily converted into a non-issue.

4. If I am privileged, then I don't understand what it's like to not be privileged (If C, then D)

Link 4 wrote:
I simply do not buy that we can – or should – get beyond our particular lenses to reach some place of perceived “objectivity.” This getting to the “true” meaning of anything, including the humanness of someone feels like some kind of hangover from the enlightenment when we began to believe that intellect and reason should and can see through all things.

5. If I don't understand what it's like to not be privileged, then I am unqualified to speak about not being privileged (If D, then E)

Link 2 wrote:
Disclaimer: white folks do not experience racism, the moderator and future contributors are no exception, and that isn’t what this blog is about. No one is here to discuss the experience of racism–only POC can do that.

6. If A, then E Q.E.D

7. If I don't treat people differently based on their color, then I am ignoring what colored people want (If B, then F)
Link 4 wrote:
Myth #2: People of color do not want to be seen as people of color.

8. If I am ignoring what colored people want, then I don't think racism exists (If F, then G)

Link 3 wrote:
And yes, of course, it would be a much better society if everyone also didn’t recognize the notion of race (which doesn’t exist). But by not recognizing the effect that “race” has in systemic oppression, you are not recognizing the notion of broken social systems (which certainly do exist).

9. If I don't think racism exists, then I am allowing racism to prosper (If G, then H)

Link 3 wrote:
Be the change you want to see in the world. But also be aware that that’s almost certainly not enough, and ignoring systemic oppression is a privilege not granted to those who are being oppressed.

10. If I am allowing racism to prosper, then I am a racist (If H, then I)

Link 1 wrote:

For example, a white woman walking down the street might clutch her purse tighter when a black woman walks by.

This particular white woman doesn’t think she’s hateful – she has black friends, eats Ethiopian food once in a while, and does other “culturally sensitive” things that make her feel like a totally not-racist person.
But she still did something racist, annoying, and hurtful.

11. If B, then I Q.E.D.

12. A and B, therefore E and I
13. Therefore I am a racist that is unqualified to speak about not being privileged.

Which is pretty much what I said originally in my one sentence summation.

thejeff wrote:
Nor did AbsolutGrndZer0 tell you what you think, he went on to describe his experience with "not seeing race" and how his eyes were open.

I beg to differ:

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Then you didn't understand the articles, or you refuse to... When anyone, especially a white person, says "I don't see race." then you pretty much are dismissing and refusing to acknowledge that racism exists at all.

-------

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Actually, there is a very strong possibility I am smarter than you. See, I can say it too. I'd tell you why I feel I can say that, and ask you to do the same, but do we really need to start a d*** (or brain in this case) measuring contest?

You want to swap Mensa ID numbers?

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
My point, and the point of the articles is, whether it's what you mean to say or not, when you tell a person who is being discriminated against "I don't see race" what many hear is "You are no different than me, and you are not being oppressed." Whether you mean that or not, that's what is heard much of the time because usually they just got stomped on and your attempt at saying that is to say "Oh, but I'm not like that mean person" in a defensivce manner.

I can't be held responsible for someone else misinterpreting my statements.

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Let me ask you this since you don't see race... Is it okay for me to dress up as a Native American Chief with a full headdress this Halloween? If it helps you decide, I am 1/16th Cherokee because my great-great grandmother was a princess!

Absolutely, even if you couldn't claim one drop of Native American blood.


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Dicey the House Goblin wrote:

Alright, I watched the stinking video (when you Summon Comrade Anklebiter, Dicey the House Goblin "just shows up" to see what's going on) and here's what I'll say: I far prefer "Concernocrat" to "Social Justice Warrior" as a pejorative term for those I disagree with. Beyond that, I have no opinion.

Oh wait, I too think that a person has to have done more than play a video game once a week to deserve the classification "Gamer," but that's sample methodology for you.

Who keeps letting these goblins in?

Don't you realise they are a THREAT TO GNOMELAND SECURITY?

I'm watching all of you....


Gnomeland Security Enforcer wrote:
Dicey the House Goblin wrote:

Alright, I watched the stinking video (when you Summon Comrade Anklebiter, Dicey the House Goblin "just shows up" to see what's going on) and here's what I'll say: I far prefer "Concernocrat" to "Social Justice Warrior" as a pejorative term for those I disagree with. Beyond that, I have no opinion.

Oh wait, I too think that a person has to have done more than play a video game once a week to deserve the classification "Gamer," but that's sample methodology for you.

Who keeps letting these goblins in?

Don't you realise they are a THREAT TO GNOMELAND SECURITY?

I'm watching all of you....

Pfff, gnomes are just ugly goblins. Wait, goblins are just ugly gnomes?


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Dissenting citizen I see!

We have a way to deal with the likes of you!

<Proceeds to ineffectively tumble and jump around the place, legs and arms too short for it to appear in any way stylish or dramatic>

Have at you!

<Pokes Simon with a hopelessly non-damaging mini-dagger, more in the line of a dull butter knife>

YEARS of training in Gnome-Fu!

<Attempts an unsuccesful manouver to break his leg. Only pushes the foot back a bit>

MASTER of the hidden art of Gnomebobulation!

<Pretty comfortable slap on the neck that releases some piled up muscle stress, though it was meant as a death choke>

Hah! You'll be dead any moment now....

<Disappears into the shadows, but bumps against the wall. Then tries to slowly crawl his way out the window>


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thejeff wrote:
That's the thing about privilege. (And possibly why it's a bad term) For people born with it, it seems like the default state. It's easy to assume everyone gets treated that way.

Are Latin-Americans known for their privileges and special treatment in the US and England?

I could very well say "That's the thing about the victimization culture. It seems like every time someone doesn't like you, it's because that someone is bigoted against your ethnicity/religion/nationality/gender/sexual preference".

I've been called sexist when I mentioned that while being male certainly has its advantages, the same could be said about being female, and that saying every man is "a potential rapist" is just as idiotic as saying every woman is "a potential murderer".

It's true in the sense that, yes, technically, most men are physically capable of raping someone. So are most women. So saying someone is a "potential <perpetrator of whatever act you can think of>" means nothing.


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thejeff wrote:
That's the thing about privilege. (And possibly why it's a bad term) For people born with it, it seems like the default state. It's easy to assume everyone gets treated that way.

If the "privlidge" belongs to 80 something percent of the population it IS the default state. If that "privlidge" is specifically written written out then yes, that IS how everyone is supposed to be treated. Coming in below that standard is discrimination. Living up to it is not a privlidge, its a g&#%#&ned right.


THejeff wrote:
If you're male, you have male privilege.

And this is where it goes off the rails for me.

For race being white has upsides with such a small list of downsides that the word applies. For gender there are different lists of societal expectations, responsibilities and rights that they can't be compared.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
That's the thing about privilege. (And possibly why it's a bad term) For people born with it, it seems like the default state. It's easy to assume everyone gets treated that way.
If the "privlidge" belongs to 80 something percent of the population it IS the default state. If that "privlidge" is specifically written written out then yes, that IS how everyone is supposed to be treated. Coming in below that standard is discrimination. Living up to it is not a privlidge, its a g*~#~&ned right.

Agreed. Except that it's a right not given to everyone.

Of course, most of the privileges are not specifically written out. There are few laws, if any, remaining saying "treat white people better".
It's about the existing prejudices and stereotypes that lead people to discriminate anyway - often without even realizing they're doing it or at least without malice.

Talking about privilege instead of discrimination, at least in theory, is trying to engage the person you're talking to without blaming them. If you talk about discrimination, a common response is to just say "I don't discriminate, so it's not my problem." Or to assume you're calling them a racist, with predictable results. Which happens with privilege as well, admittedly.


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Lemmy wrote:
thejeff wrote:


I've been called sexist when I mentioned that while being male certainly has its advantages, the same could be said about being female, and that saying every man is "a potential rapist" is just as idiotic as saying every woman is "a potential murderer".

It's true in the sense that, yes, technically, most men are physically capable of raping someone. So are most women. So saying someone is a "potential <perpetrator of whatever act you can think of>" means nothing.

USA Today newspaper just had a story yesterday about how the rape statistics BY women and AGAINST men are far higher then people realise


Simon Legrande wrote:
My position is good because I've reached it after a decade of self-reflection and examination.

You're only ten!?


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thejeff wrote:
Of course, most of the privileges are not specifically written out. There are few laws, if any, remaining saying "treat white people better".

Which is problematic when you try to assign the term to gender roles. The genders are treated so differently and are so different that throwing male privlidge at someone is a complete misnomer.

Quote:
It's about the existing prejudices and stereotypes that lead people to discriminate anyway - often without even realizing they're doing it or at least without malice.

Discrimination at least makes it sound like someone is being treated worse than they should be getting treated. Privilege makes it sound like someone is being treated better than they deserve to be, and that the "right" way to treat them would be somewhere in the middle, rather than stopping the discrimination.

Quote:
Talking about privilege instead of discrimination, at least in theory, is trying to engage the person you're talking to without blaming them. If you talk about discrimination, a common response is to just say "I don't discriminate, so it's not my problem." Or to assume you're calling them a racist, with predictable results. Which happens with privilege as well, admittedly.

Right. Its obviously not working, so why on earth would you keep trying to do it?


Sebastrd wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
My position is good because I've reached it after a decade of self-reflection and examination.
You're only ten!?

*sigh* If only... those were the days... No, I'm much older than that but I'm not afraid to say that I could have lived the earlier parts of my life better.


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Simon Legrande wrote:
Sebastrd wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
My position is good because I've reached it after a decade of self-reflection and examination.
You're only ten!?
*sigh* If only... those were the days... No, I'm much older than that but I'm not afraid to say that I could have lived the earlier parts of my life better.

If its any consolation when you're 10 years older you're going to look at your current self and say the same thing.

EVERYONE is an idiot. Always. Life moves on.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
[That's odd... In over 27 years of existence, I never felt privileged or victimized. Like I said, there are people who like me and people who dislike me. Some treat me better, others treat me worse. Some of them have a reason for this, others don't. I'm willing to bet the same happens to everyone else on the world.

If I could Quantum Leap you into the body of a charcoal black teen in a whole variety of towns, you'd realize what life would be like without the privileges that are so normal for you that you take them for granted.


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The thing here is, I don't think anybody denies that privilege is a thing. Rich people have it better than poor people, white people (on average) have it better than black people. And so on.

The problem I have with it comes from the assumption that I should be ASHAMED of this.


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What's up human beings, goblins, and gnomes!?
*flops down after getting home from work and crackin' open a strawberry nesquick he splurged a little to buy*

Miss me? I know I missed you guys. I spent a fair amount of time today at work thinking about all of this discussion. So far it's made me ecstatically happy because it makes me appreciate how much I love everyone that I see on a day to day basis, and why that's special. One of the ladies who comes into our store called me her brother and wanted a hug. After this thread, I guess that just feels so much more...magical.

*sips strawberry nesquick and leans back against the backrest of the wooden chair*

Having had a chance to see the world as thejeff and mechaPoet have been presenting it, I concur. I am incredibly lucky, and privileged, in my life. So very, very privileged. *sighs serenely*
With everything that's happened lately, this is truly a moment that I can be very pleased, and very happy, to be who I am, where I am, and live the way I do, with the people I do. It makes me happy to stand where I stand, and all the more certain that it is where I want to stay.


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LazarX wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
[That's odd... In over 27 years of existence, I never felt privileged or victimized. Like I said, there are people who like me and people who dislike me. Some treat me better, others treat me worse. Some of them have a reason for this, others don't. I'm willing to bet the same happens to everyone else on the world.
If I could Quantum Leap you into the body of a charcoal black teen in a whole variety of towns, you'd realize what life would be like without the privileges that are so normal for you that you take them for granted.

Could you quantum leap me into the body of a Latin-American man in the USA?

Oh, right...

Here's the thing... How can you be so sure that whatever "privilege" I have outweighs any prejudice I suffer? You saying I am privileged holds as much weight as me saying that I'm an oppressed minority... Except, of course, for the fact that I actually know what happens in my life.

---

I do not deny that prejudice and privilege exist. What annoys me is the professional victimization that I see around. People acting as if every time a white person does something bad to a black person, it's because of racism. Every time a man gets ahead of an woman is sexism, and so on.

This assumption, that whatever I got is due to "white/male/whatever privilege" and that the world handles everything to me on a silver plate. Seeing people saying things like "every man is a potential rapist" completely seriously, and when I disagree with notions such as these, I'm the one being sexist.

I'm sure I've had many opportunities that other people didn't. I'm not ashamed of that and I'll not apologize for it. Nor do I expect people who have more and better opportunities than me to apologize to me.

It's not my fault that bigotry exists. All I can do is treat other people as equals and encourage others to do the same.

It's not anyone's fault to fall victim to someone else's ignorance, prejudice and violence, but it's their choice to let "victimhood" define who they are.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No one is expecting you to take the responsibility for the way this planet is screwed up.

You're not being asked to do anything besides being honest about the reality of race and culture dynamics on this sick planet.


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LazarX wrote:

No one is expecting you to take the responsibility for the way this planet is screwed up.

You're not being asked to do anything besides being honest about the reality of race and culture dynamics on this sick planet.

And when, exactly, have I been dishonest? Did I at some point say "yo, there is no such thing as bigotry."?

All I've talked about is my disdain for the assumption that "white privilege" is the cause of all I ever got, and worse, the idea that because I'm male, straight and white, I can't speak about bigotry, since apparently humans are absolutely incapable of understanding anything they don't personally experience (And white straight men apparently are never unfairly mistreated by anyone. Ever.).

Professional victims that flood media and internet are annoying and counterproductive. Every girl who claims a man is a chauvinist pig because he likes strong male protagonists and sexy girls in his games is as much as a lunatic as a man who claims women are guilty of misandry because they like to see two shirtless men fight over the heroine in Twilight.

Here is a secret... Media products targeted at male audiences will always include stuff men like. Just like media products targeted at female audiences will always include stuff women like.


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Rynjin wrote:

The thing here is, I don't think anybody denies that privilege is a thing. Rich people have it better than poor people, white people (on average) have it better than black people. And so on.

The problem I have with it comes from the assumption that I should be ASHAMED of this.

Oh, I am not ashamed of it, nor do I think I should be, and if any of MY posts in this thread have suggested in any way that one should be ashamed, I apologize that was never my intent. I am however aware of it, and on the rare occasion someone tells ME directly to check my privilege, I don't get defensive toward them, I go "Whoa... let me take a step back and think about this..." and 9/10 times in doing so I am able to see where yep, I need to check my privilege. To me at least, check your privilege means that we have a very very very long road to equality left.

As to those who say "Every man is a potential rapist" or such things, no I absolutely do not agree with that, nor do any of the other feminists I talk to regularly. When we tweet about a man who has hurt a woman, it's about that man, not me, not you, not all men. Which reminds me of the twitter hashtag campaign of #NotAllMen while that's nice, I don't like that hashtag, cause it's to me too defensive. A better slogan from an article I read is #AllMenCan which you can find out about here http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/04/allmencan-yes-all-women-twitter-ac tivism


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See, when someone says "check your privilege" they are, intentionally or not, attempting to "win" immediately by invalidating whatever you just said.

White cishet males don't get to have opinions on "oppressed" people's issues that differ from the "oppressed"'s viewpoint. If they do, the usual rebuttal is "Chiggity check your privilege" *Mic drop*

Much like modern feminism, the whole concept of checking your privilege (which I'm sure started out as an innocent enough idea, that you should be aware of what you have and what others might not) has been tainted.

It's a loaded term at this point, which is why I don't use it, or really tolerate other people using it against me.

Dark Archive

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LazarX wrote:

No one is expecting you to take the responsibility for the way this planet is screwed up.

You're not being asked to do anything besides being honest about the reality of race and culture dynamics on this sick planet.

The thing is - why stop at race and culture?

If you are going to discuss privilege are you going to include "good-looking" or "beautiful" privilege? Should a naturally athletic guy - maybe fast, maybe strong - address his privilege he has for his natural talent over others who have to struggle to get to his level?

Invisible knapsack nonsense makes the distinction between earned strength and unearned power. Are not people born more attractive utilizing unearned power? The didn't have to work for it - they were born with it, just like their race or gender.

So are these privileges? They give people advantages over others in society - better jobs, greater social status, wealth.

They are not listed as "privilege" because that crosses the line of idiocy (at least to most sane people). It can't be sold to people yet - but we are already seeing a race to the bottom with terms like "Thin-Privilege" and who can be the biggest victim (and earn the most sympathy - which in of itself is like a drug).

-

The use of the term privilege is derogatory and meant to be used to elicit a response or reaction. Just another race based insult and classification system that is framed as intellectual observation. A tool to create "permanent" disharmony. "Privilege" can never be ameliorated or lifted. It is a permanent state of racial inequality.

And who are the people asking and naming? These self-appointed keepers of racial justice and equality?

Sorry, the whole thing comes across as a race-based and racist scam and actually hurts those who are disenfranchised. Instead of attempting to reach a state of parity between the races, to fix or alleviate problems the term "privilege" seeks to create a permanent racial dynamic that offers little in way of helping the problem.

Intellectually lazy wordsmithing.


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Rynjin wrote:

See, when someone says "check your privilege" they are, intentionally or not, attempting to "win" immediately by invalidating whatever you just said.

White cishet males don't get to have opinions on "oppressed" people's issues that differ from the "oppressed"'s viewpoint. If they do, the usual rebuttal is "Chiggity check your privilege" *Mic drop*

Much like modern feminism, the whole concept of checking your privilege (which I'm sure started out as an innocent enough idea, that you should be aware of what you have and what others might not) has been tainted.

It's a loaded term at this point, which is why I don't use it, or really tolerate other people using it against me.

I sort of understand where you are coming from, and granted there have only been a few times someone has said it to me, but again, if they said it they have a reason, and at least in my experience, I've seen where they were right.

And oh please don't turn this into a debate on modern feminism and whether it's "tainted" or not. Yes, there are feminists out there that do more harm that good (like the stereotypical "man-hating lesbian" that so many think all feminists are) but please don't paint us all with the same brush.


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AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Oh, I am not ashamed of it, nor do I think I should be, and if any of MY posts in this thread have suggested in any way that one should be ashamed, I apologize that was never my intent. I am however aware of it, and on the rare occasion someone tells ME directly to check my privilege, I don't get defensive toward them, I go "Whoa... let me take a step back and think about this..." and 9/10 times in doing so I am able to see where yep, I need to check my privilege. To me at least, check your privilege means that we have a very very very long road to equality left.
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
I sort of understand where you are coming from, and granted there have only been a few times someone has said it to me, but again, if they said it they have a reason, and at least in my experience, I've seen where they were right.

Check your privilege is basically pretentious-SJW language for "Your opinion doesn't count! Only what I, the victimest of them all, think matters."

Women have a bunch of advantages over men... Should I go around shouting "check your privilege" to every female I meet because they, on average, spend less time than men in jail for committing the very same crimes? Or maybe because mothers are by far the most likely to win the custody of their children no matter who is the better parent (one would imagine that it'd be 50/50). I know at least 3 cases where this happened. Or maybe because women are actually taken seriously by the authorities when they say they have been raped and/or assaulted by their partner.

Damn... It's almost like each gender has its pros and cons...

I have never, literally never, seen "Check Your Privilege" used by someone who had a legitimate argument.


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Lemmy wrote:
I have never, literally never, seen "Check Your Privilege" used by someone who had a legitimate argument.

And yet they wonder why their movement drives people away from them, and makes sane-feminists have to stand up and be like "I'm a feminist, but I'm not that kind of feminist".

On a side note, there's something amusing about the Hellsing Abridged w/ Rip Van Winkle. Do you know who Alucard is fighting against in that series? :P


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AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:


And oh please don't turn this into a debate on modern feminism and whether it's "tainted" or not. Yes, there are feminists out there that do more harm that good (like the stereotypical "man-hating lesbian" that so many think all feminists are) but please don't paint us all with the same brush.

I'm certain that man-haters are a minority within feminist movements. So are woman-haters within gamer culture.

The whole thing that started this thread is, precisely, the prevailing problem of blanketing an entire segment of people with the characteristics of a minority, made all the more hurtful and divisive by the fact it is done by people with a public voice that can influence many.

It's hard to tell what a group really looks like when there's a small core of extremists that, by virtue (or rather by vice) of how noisy they are, can appear to be the majority. The internet further distorts the image, since as a medium it's geared toward showing us what we want to see.

And that's why we need responsible journalists, because those are the people who we should be able to rely on to show us the whole picture.


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Rynjin wrote:

See, when someone says "check your privilege" they are, intentionally or not, attempting to "win" immediately by invalidating whatever you just said.

White cishet males don't get to have opinions on "oppressed" people's issues that differ from the "oppressed"'s viewpoint. If they do, the usual rebuttal is "Chiggity check your privilege" *Mic drop*

Much like modern feminism, the whole concept of checking your privilege (which I'm sure started out as an innocent enough idea, that you should be aware of what you have and what others might not) has been tainted.

It's a loaded term at this point, which is why I don't use it, or really tolerate other people using it against me.

From my understanding of things, the check your privilege thing originated as a sort of philosophy question in gender studies and such. It was an idea meant to open your mind to other ideas, as philosophy is wont. It was meant to make you think.

Thing is, as a concept it is flawed because it ignores the specific experiences individuals have, something that is rather important with humans. Which is fine, because it's not meant to be a perfect concept, it's just for thought provocation.

But like many of these mind opening sorta dealies that come up, some people run off with it and take it as more than what it was and took it at face value. It was good for what it was, but it's become something it was never meant to be. It makes me think of how in psychology, you're still taught Freudian theory as part of history of it, and then there's people who still apply it despite it being known it's full of it.


Rynjin wrote:

The thing here is, I don't think anybody denies that privilege is a thing. Rich people have it better than poor people, white people (on average) have it better than black people. And so on.

The problem I have with it comes from the assumption that I should be ASHAMED of this.

You shouldn't be. That's the point.

So, moving aside from the question of whether the word "privilege" is somehow inherently insulting, is there a way to talk about this concept that won't have the same effect? Or worse effects.

Because it's a real concept and needs to addressed.

Personally, I suspect there isn't, because I think it's the concept (and maybe the way some people use the term) that bothers people. Any new term will see the same problems.


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TheJeff wrote:
So, moving aside from the question of whether the word "privilege" is somehow inherently insulting, is there a way to talk about this concept that won't have the same effect? Or worse effects.

Not in this case.

As soon as you admit that men and women are different, have different tastes*, and react differently to different things and there's nothing wrong with that and that subcultures set their own mores and values, then you lose any basis for a complaint.

*as a group.

Silver Crusade

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But we're not talking about differences, we're talking about privileges. Things like women making less because employers assume they'll leave the workforce to have children, etc.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
TheJeff wrote:
So, moving aside from the question of whether the word "privilege" is somehow inherently insulting, is there a way to talk about this concept that won't have the same effect? Or worse effects.

Not in this case.

As soon as you admit that men and women are different, have different tastes*, and react differently to different things and there's nothing wrong with that and that subcultures set their own mores and values, then you lose any basis for a complaint.

*as a group.

You mean specifically to video games, I assume? I was talking about the larger picture, since privilege seems to provoke the same kinds of responses in other contexts.

Honestly, as I said before, I see the whole video games thing as a tempest in a teapot. They've hit mainstream, women are going to be increasingly involved and the subculture is going to change. Lots of people are going to flip out about it, but it's not going to stop.


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|dvh| wrote:
But we're not talking about differences, we're talking about privileges. Things like women making less because employers assume they'll leave the workforce to have children, etc.

I'd say just "women making less". There's a good deal of research that suggests it's not nearly so rational as assuming they'll leave the workforce to have kids.


thejeff wrote:
You mean specifically to video games, I assume? I was talking about the larger picture, since privilege seems to provoke the same kinds of responses in other contexts.

Then when discussing the other issues you need to be specific, because in the larger picture "privlidge" is a giant timey whimey ball of confusing and contradictory ideas that implies a lot of things that simply aren't true. If you're shown espousing something that isn't true then it undermines all of your other arguments.

The larger idea is gender roles. Act in them and you're good, get outside them and society can do anything from a doubletake to a lynch mob. Nothing smaller is really going to cover it.

Quote:


Honestly, as I said before, I see the whole video games thing as a tempest in a teapot. They've hit mainstream, women are going to be increasingly involved and the subculture is going to change. Lots of people are going to flip out about it, but it's not going to stop.

I'm not that worried. I'm pretty sure that blowing someone's pixilated head off with a rocket launcher is always going to result in some very unlady like language whether or not there are ladies around to hear it or say it.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Then when discussing the other issues you need to be specific, because in the larger picture "privlidge" is a giant timey whimey ball of confusing and contradictory ideas that implies a lot of things that simply aren't true. If you're shown espousing something that isn't true then it undermines all of your other arguments.

Not really, no.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I'm not that worried. I'm pretty sure that blowing someone's pixilated head off with a rocket launcher is always going to result in some very unlady like language whether or not there are ladies around to hear it or say it.

That's not really the argument at all. Sexism in video games has more to do with how women in game, or women in gaming culture, are treated.


|dvh| wrote:


Not really, no.

Could you be more specific?

Quote:


That's not really the argument at all. Sexism in video games has more to do with how women in game, or women in gaming culture, are treated.

Games deal with male oriented subjects better than they deal with women oriented subjects. That's going to attract a disproportionately male audience which due to the social nature of the game will result in a disproportionately male subculture. Reduced social pressures against women gamers can leave it a little less skewed but nowhere near close enough to 50 50 prevent a self reinforcing feed back loop resulting in a male audience which is going to be enticed by sexists things like rescuing the princess and pixilated daisy duke shorts.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
|dvh| wrote:
That's not really the argument at all. Sexism in video games has more to do with how women in game, or women in gaming culture, are treated.
Games deal with male oriented subjects better than they deal with women oriented subjects. That's going to attract a disproportionately male audience which due to the social nature of the game will result in a disproportionately male subculture. Reduced social pressures against women gamers can leave it a little less skewed but nowhere near close enough to 50 50 prevent a self reinforcing feed back loop resulting in a male audience which is going to be enticed by sexists things like rescuing the princess and pixilated daisy duke shorts.

Of course it does. And women will always be less interested in manly things like science and computers and science fiction and table top RPGs.

We know this because they're less interested in them now and it's obviously a biologically innate difference, just like it was decades ago when the ratio was even more extreme.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
|dvh| wrote:


Not really, no.

Could you be more specific?

Can you? Your original blanket statement wasn't very specific either.


|dvh| wrote:
But we're not talking about differences, we're talking about privileges. Things like women making less because employers assume they'll leave the workforce to have children, etc.

The gender wage gap uses bogus statistics

EDIT: more detailed information


Necromancer wrote:
|dvh| wrote:
But we're not talking about differences, we're talking about privileges. Things like women making less because employers assume they'll leave the workforce to have children, etc.

The gender wage gap uses bogus statistics

EDIT: more detailed information

Beat me to it. I've been practically swimming through miss Sommer's videos since I saw the first one, and I immediately thought of this when the "but the money!" thing came up.

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