Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers takes a look at video games


Video Games

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Aranna wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

It would also predict that black women are worse off than black men, which doesn't seem to be the case.

I am curious why you don't think so?

One in every three african american males can expect to go to prison in their lifetime.

Black men being shot by police for being scary black men

Black women are starting to earn more money than black men (They call it a recession. I say its the new normal)

Hmmm Reach Advisors made that claim for data collected by survey only for 2008 only... Some research into Reach Advisors shows them to be a survey based data collection firm focused on predicting results for the future. But that is a huge conflict of interest when trying to fairly collect data. They WANT to market themselves to businesses as being able to predict the future trends based on data collection now or in the past. That doesn't work, it creates a situation where the predictor tries to make his prediction relevant by ignoring anything going forward that doesn't line up... its simple self interest on the part of the reviewers. Also it concerns me that they ONLY got data for 2008 when their own articles have focused on "post crash" data. So clearly they have data newer than 2008 and yet have refused to include it. I would be very wary of trotting out biased articles as truth.


Its more than anyone's done to show that black men are better off than black women, other than claim that men have privlidge so they're better off and that shows privlidge.

The wage gap for black men and black women that are earning wages isn't so high that even that standard (which favors men) isn't so high that men who aren't earning wages at all won't even them out. Its also incredibly hard to argue that a minor increase in earned wage is going to counter higher unemployment rates, much less make up for that whopping 1/3 chance of going to prison.


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Ashiel wrote:
Aranna wrote:

Hold on there this is hypocrisy.

You are demanding an impossible standard for real feminists while giving men who would never help women get an equal share the pass.

...whut?

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You can only argue so many issues before your viewpoint becomes diluted and irrelevant.

"The (unmolested) data shows that there is some unfairness. Let's fix it," isn't exactly spreading your viewpoint very thin. You must have an excessively cynical view on the capabilities of the conscious human mind.

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I would LOVE to see the reaction you would get if you said "shut up and also help all those other people who are suffering too like Latinos, disadvantaged white children, or women" to all those mobs fighting for equal rights for blacks. I have never met a real feminist who didn't care that some boys were being mistreated and if presented with an opportunity to make things better wouldn't have hesitated to do so. BUT those little steps forward that Dr Sommers likes to point to as proof we should all shut up would NEVER have happened without real feminists bringing those issues forward. Sexism is the single largest -ism facing the world today not just for the appalling treatment of women in third world countries but also the way we are still treated here at home in the first world. The time for us to shut up will be when inclusivity and equality is the NORM not the outlier. It gets real annoying being a real feminist when on one side you have fake feminists like Dr. Sommers saying every thing is roses and the other tiny few but VERY vocal extreme feminist man haters out there making bad press...

Dr. Sommers was a feminist when feminism actually meant something. The woman is a 60 year old professor of philosophy and ethics (something a few feminists today could definitely use today). She represents a purer, uncorrupted, brand of feminism that is based in rational thought and higher standards of data collection and presentation.

I'm sorry she has been too busy doing things...

The only things she has been busy doing are trying to make the world better for her white male children... I see NO effort on her part to fight for ANY equality for women. All her works are dismissive of feminism in ANY form. Her two noteworthy books are focused on rescuing men from the cruel education system and tearing down feminism based (I have to guess since I don't have a copy) on her much reviled straw feminists, the man haters; who never have spoken for any real feminist issues, preferring to run around making man bashing attacks and making the whole cause look bad largely because they are the media's darlings.

She even says herself in one video that one of the main reasons she calls herself feminist is to irritate the feminists. She has never been a feminist and remains anti-feminist on every occasion she has had something to say. All feminists want equity for girls... except Dr Sommers. And perhaps her opposite trouble makers the man haters who probably want more rights than men.

I love how you think her message to girls is good in any way. Basically she is telling us to shut up and accept sexism as legitimate because that is what "male gamer culture"? So that makes it ok? The message she is sending is 'Sorry girls go back to your beauty magazines and stay away from gaming that is a boy thing'. I LIKE gaming IS it SO WRONG to want some representation in the hard core gaming area? Even miss male character is a huge step in the right direction. I don't expect flowery dialog in a FPS game even if they include a girl avatar option... I just want the avatar option (the dialog can come in RPGs). Let more girls enjoy gaming in a less sexist way and I suspect over the years it will become less and less one sided gender wise. Contrary to popular belief we would love to blast some bad guys to let off steam from time to time... just give us the chance without all the angry attacks from the internet.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its more than anyone's done to show that black men are better off than black women, other than claim that men have privlidge so they're better off and that shows privlidge.

The wage gap for black men and black women that are earning wages isn't so high that even that standard (which favors men) isn't so high that men who aren't earning wages at all won't even them out. Its also incredibly hard to argue that a minor earned wage is going to higher unemployment rates, much less make up for that whopping 1/3 chance of going to prison.

Hey I am not wading into the whole 'privilege' off topic debate. If you want a statement as to my take on 'privilege' then it's summed up nicely by "those with privilege are those with money (like Dr Sommers) regardless of race or gender." Anything beyond that is a quagmire of specific situations and unprovable biases.


So money makes you privileged, nothing else? That would make Ferguson an economic conflict, not a racial one.


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This is how it comes across.

At best its -your games are bad and you should feel bad for liking them-

On a bad day it sounds like -I'm a woman so I can tell you the proper way to behave and what you should like-

No one is going to put up with someone trash talking their beloved hobby like that. Its not a privlidge to have a largely male demographic acting like a bunch of guys. Its not a privlidge to be able to be yourself and like what you like.

Just because we're playing a fantasy game doesn't mean we have to buy into the myth of what some people demand that we should be.


To help get us back on track:

Kafkatrapping

This is why I'm concerned for game culture, because this is common in other media industries and growing in society at large. Please read.


Rynjin wrote:

Look, I don't like the concept a whole ton, but you have to understand something before you bash it, eh?

In your scenario the homeless, one legged vet would lack privilege for being both poor, and disabled, while having privilege for being male.

The woman would only lack privilege for being female, but would have privilege for being both able bodied and having a better economic status.

So the one legged homeless vet (who also probably has PTSD, so there's another lack of privilege for psychological issues) is less privileged than the woman.

Privilege would say, however, a one legged homeless FEMALE vet would probably have it worse.

IMO it's dumb to compare hardships that way, like they're trading cards or something, but it's not as lopsided as you make it out to be.

Female privilege kept those women home safe not risking it all in a jungle.

Female privilege is still showing more attention to wounded women than men and more is doing to keep women from becoming homeless.


I am not claiming "nothing else".
Just that the only easily proven privilege is wealth.

To apply a blanket generic to any other form is highly situational. It sure LOOKS like being poor in Ferguson is highly unwise just looking at their ticketing. But beyond that what ARE the causes of being poor? Is black the same thing as being poor? That IS the stereotype. Are rich black people given privilege? I have seen that YES rich black people have privilege so clearly wealth weighs MORE the color on that scale. So where is the line between color and poverty? Police prey on the easy targets (mostly the poor) BUT also blacks. Why? Profiling? And how much of that poor treatment of the poor LOOKS like racism to a black person? I suspect that there IS racism in Ferguson but How much racism isn't something I think anyone can truly answer.


Necromancer wrote:

To help get us back on track:

Kafkatrapping

This is why I'm concerned for game culture, because this is common in other media industries and growing in society at large. Please read.

Yep that is exactly it.

Makes me think of the youtube guy called the amazing athiest that starts one vid whipping himself chanting"why am i white, why am i male, why can't i stop oppressing others?"


Aranna wrote:

I am not claiming "nothing else".

Just that the only easily proven privilege is wealth.

To apply a blanket generic to any other form is highly situational. It sure LOOKS like being poor in Ferguson is highly unwise just looking at their ticketing. But beyond that what ARE the causes of being poor? Is black the same thing as being poor? That IS the stereotype. Are rich black people given privilege? I have seen that YES rich black people have privilege so clearly wealth weighs MORE the color on that scale. So where is the line between color and poverty? Police prey on the easy targets (mostly the poor) BUT also blacks. Why? Profiling? And how much of that poor treatment of the poor LOOKS like racism to a black person? I suspect that there IS racism in Ferguson but How much racism isn't something I think anyone can truly answer.

health wealthy and beauty. Those can override ANY other consideration, and wealth can often shadow the other two.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

This is how it comes across.

At best its -your games are bad and you should feel bad for liking them-

On a bad day it sounds like -I'm a woman so I can tell you the proper way to behave and what you should like-

No one is going to put up with someone trash talking their beloved hobby like that. Its not a privlidge to have a largely male demographic acting like a bunch of guys. Its not a privlidge to be able to be yourself and like what you like.

Just because we're playing a fantasy game doesn't mean we have to buy into the myth of what some people demand that we should be.

How does requesting a female option come across as "Your games are bad"?

How does it threaten you to include us in the fun? Why does gaming with a girl seem SO threatening to boys?

And trash talking? I assume you mean calling out the sexism in certain titles. IS sexism so much a part of your fun that making tiny little changes ruins the WHOLE experience of gaming?


JurgenV wrote:
Necromancer wrote:

To help get us back on track:

Kafkatrapping

This is why I'm concerned for game culture, because this is common in other media industries and growing in society at large. Please read.

Yep that is exactly it.

Makes me think of the youtube guy called the amazing athiest that starts one vid whipping himself chanting"why am i white, why am i male, why can't i stop oppressing others?"

After reading it, I've decided to do two things:

1 - Reread The Trial (Der Prozess) and any other Kafka work I can get my hands on.

2 - Stop using the SJW pejorative and start calling people Kafkatrappers. More accuracy and less anger.


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Aranna wrote:


How does requesting a female option come across as "Your games are bad"?

If the game doesn't depend on the protagonist as a person it doesn't. If the game depends on the protagonist as a character you're either asking for 2 story lines or to leave gender and relations completely out of the story line, which is harder to do than you'd think.

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How does it threaten you to include us in the fun?

The problem doesn't crop up when you want to be included in the fun as it currently exists. The problem comes up when you expect that the normal course of action is for the group to both know exactly where the limits of your fun are and to accommodate your personal preferences. That is not generally how guys interact with each other.

It gets even weirder when you're not even allowed to be caught making those accommodations. -Oh just treat me like one of the guys or then you're sexist...-

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Why does gaming with a girl seem SO threatening to boys?

There's a girl here, now we have to behave and watch what we say.

Quote:

And trash talking? I assume you mean calling out the sexism in certain titles.IS sexism so much a part of your fun that making tiny little changes ruins the WHOLE experience of gaming?

If you're defining rescuing the princess and scantily clad females as sexist then yes.


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"White Privilege" is really broken!


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On a serious note.

I don't have anything against women playing video-games or doing whatever they want, IMO, everyone should have the same rights independently of their gender/ethnicity/whatever. But I'll be against people claiming that games with male protagonists and sexy female characters are sexist, because that claim makes as much sense as saying Twilight is misandry because it has two shirtless guys fighting over a female protagonist.

The way I see, it makes perfect sense than media targeted at male audiences will be filled of stuff men like, including impossibly sexy women in skimpy outfit. Just like media targeted to female audiences will be filled with stuff women like, which apparently includes handsome vampires and shirtless werewolves.

I don't go around trying to make female-oriented games/movies/whatever have no shirtless guys. All I ask is that these modern "feminists" give me the same courtesy and stop trying to make male-oriented games/movies/whatever have no scantly-dressed gals.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
|dvh| wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
|dvh| wrote:


Not really, no.

Could you be more specific?
Can you? Your original blanket statement wasn't very specific either.

Male Privlidge implies that its a 1 way street: that everything is better if you're male. This is simply not the case. Men are 4 times more likely to die violently, 9 times more likely to be in prison, less likely to get social services in the same circumstances, and less likely to be awarded custody of their children. If a man can get welfare or a job where the loss of life and limb is a real possibility then he'd better hope he's not too attached to his limbs. A man hitting a woman is an atrocity but a woman hitting a man is just funny. Women don't get drafted to fight in armies. Men are more respected but people are nicer and more helpful to women. Women are allowed to be offended and set the bar for social interaction in group settings.

Yes, women are discouraged from top leadership positions but its not as simple as women being pushed down. Women are pushed towards the middle while men are pushed towards the extremes. Jack goes homeless, Jill gets welfare is just as real as the glass ceiling.

The different ways that life sucks for both genders are simply incomparable. There is no way to compare X times more likely to be victim of assault with Y times more likely to be blown to smithereens on a battlefield. About the absolute worst interpretation you can come out of with such a complex interaction is "males are privileged". Its at least half false and makes it seem like you're using a sociobabble buzzword in place of an argument.

The problem is you're trying to put up an argument known as "false equivalence". Do bad things happen to men because of the idiotic way the human species deals with sex and gender roles? Of course they do, no one here has argued otherwise. But one form of denial is to try to put up an argument that "things are equally bad for everyone, so no one can claim to have a problem.". That is the position of false equivalence And that doesn't apply. For all the progress that has been made, Men still hold the balance of real power, measured in terms of political, but most importantly, economic. especially White Men in this country. Look at the popultation of police forces, corporate boards, and local, state, and national governments. Despite the fact that women slightly outnumber men in overall population, the share of power does not reflect that reality, any more than it reflects the nonwhite proportion of the population.

And when it comes to rape by the way, men are far more often raped by straight men then women. Because rape is an expression of power more than anything else.


LazarX wrote:
The problem is you're trying to put up an argument known as "false equivalence".

Blatherskite.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. It would be the antonym of the mathematical concept of material equivalence.

A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result. False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal-wiki

How on earth is accusation, which you make without directly addressing anything I said, make ANY sense whatso ever when I have repeatedly said that comparisons between the genders are apples to oranges and impossible.

You are accusing me of setting up a false equivalence when i have repeatedly and expressly denied that no sort of equivalence is possible.

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That is the position of false equivalence And that doesn't apply. For all the progress that has been made, Men still hold the balance of real power, measured in terms of political, but most importantly, economic.

Which does nothing to counter my argument that women are pushed towards the middle, not down, while men sink or swim at the extremes.


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Aranna wrote:

Hold on there this is hypocrisy.

You are demanding an impossible standard for real feminists while giving men who would never help women get an equal share the pass. You can only argue so many issues before your viewpoint becomes diluted and irrelevant. I would LOVE to see the reaction you would get if you said "shut up and also help all those other people who are suffering too like Latinos, disadvantaged white children, or women" to all those mobs fighting for equal rights for blacks. I have never met a real feminist who didn't care that some boys were being mistreated and if presented with an opportunity to make things better wouldn't have hesitated to do so. BUT those little steps forward that Dr Sommers likes to point to as proof we should all shut up would NEVER have happened without real feminists bringing those issues forward. Sexism is the single largest -ism facing the world today not just for the appalling treatment of women in third world countries but also the way we are still treated here at home in the first world. The time for us to shut up will be when inclusivity and equality is the NORM not the outlier. It gets real annoying being a real feminist when on one side you have fake feminists like Dr. Sommers saying every thing is roses and the other tiny few but VERY vocal extreme feminist man haters out there making bad press...

Ahh, so a real feminist is whatever you agree with, and a fake feminist is whatever you don't agree with.

Got it. No True Scotsman in spades.

It's mind-blowing that you're accusing anyone of hypocrisy is the middle of a post where you try to marginalize a subset of people ostensibly in the name of fighting against the marginalization of a subset of people.


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I don't often favourite Scott's posts. Feels kind of iffy.

However, Aranna, you put a few questions above:

Aranna wrote:
How does requesting a female option come across as "Your games are bad"?

Come now, the feminist wyld hunt in question has been falling over itself in trying to hammer home the message that there isn't a single shred of value in the gaming industry products. It wasn't the demands for a female option, it was the extremely vocal and toxic views that got the message understood as "Your games are bad". I find most AAA titles less than stellar, usually due to the unthinking action, the substandard writing and so on, basically everything but the graphics is weak. The exceptions are what is worth playing, and they do still exist, thankfully. I certainly don't mind having male and female options if they are possible to make, but honestly, Aranna, would Planescape: Torment have been a better game with a female protagonist? At the very least, it's a complicated question.

Aranna wrote:
How does it threaten you to include us in the fun? Why does gaming with a girl seem SO threatening to boys?

Everyone is welcome. Have been so for a good, long time now. But a subculture is an entity with its own principles, value systems, thoughts, perceptions and so on. Gamers are no exception. Join in if you want, and work toward the change you want, but understand that such change needs to come from shared experiences, discussions and so on, according to how the subculture does these things. Enough women in gaming and gaming will change with most people happy about it. Women, especially non-gamer women, TELLING gamers that they are bad, evil people (dried husks, wasn't it?) and need to change what they like, that isn't going to go over well, just like it wouldn't in regards to any other subculture.

Aranna wrote:
And trash talking? I assume you mean calling out the sexism in certain titles. IS sexism so much a part of your fun that making tiny little changes ruins the WHOLE experience of gaming?

I remember seeing a number of interviews in the "alien sideboob" controversy in Mass Effect, where a number of morons of various stripes were doing their level best to get their fifteen minutes of TV time by claiming a game they had never played was horrible because it revolved only around sex, all the time. These people aren't satisfied with "tiny little changes", and you know it, Aranna. Right now, the core of the conflict is about "who has the right to say what should and shouldn't be in computer games?", and the wrong answer to that question WILL lead to bad places. For comics, it was the Comics Code (read that until you understand it if you haven't already). In short, it sentenced an entire medium to pathetic writing, bizarre restrictions and elementary-school level plots, turning it to sanitized drek for decades (the views of Tracy Hickman notwithstanding). We do NOT want that, but it is still where a voice for complying with the wyld hunt will lead.

In short: This is a case of very much ado about nothing. It doesn't matter that these people like to stroke their ego by claiming that the gamer culture is dead. New things will happen, and eyes will find other things to look at. The hunters have no stamina for a sustained assault, and time will prove them wrong in a month or two. It may even be that they are right, that there is too much sexism in gaming. The sad fact is that even if we think so, the worst thing we gamers can do right now is agree with them. That would be giving them the authority they claim.


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Christina Hoff Sommers the Feminist. A feminist of a different era. A feminist I can agree with, get behind, who has integrity, honesty, is ethical, and insists on using reason and logic to determine course of action and policy. A woman who believes in equity for everyone. Someone that I would be proud to stand beside, with a strength of character I would admire in anyone.

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I love how you think her message to girls is good in any way. Basically she is telling us to shut up and accept sexism as legitimate because that is what "male gamer culture"?

Far from it. In fact she describes the gaming culture as being one of the most inclusive where aspects such as race or gender take a back seat to ability; one that actually matches what I've seen at the gaming expos in my area. Nobody excludes women. We like seeing women sit down next to us, grab a controller, and dive into games with us. What doctor Sommers has pointed out is that there is no evidence that video games or the subculture is making men racist, misogynist, or homophobic. In truth, evidence suggests that "millennial-male" growing up constantly exposed to video games are actually more inclusive and less prejudiced than any before them.

She is also fair, because she looks at it from across the coin. How would women feel if men started attacking female-centered shows, magazines, and so forth in the same fashion people like Anita Sarkeesian have been attacking the gaming culture.

She also remarks on while the ratio of hardcore gamers is 7 to 1, there is a small but distinct and cool group of women that make up that other 8th; and she notes that games don't care about your age, sex, ethnicity, race, or sexual preference. Gaming is one of the places that you can honestly and without doubt have both sexes compete and thrive in, such as Marie-laure Norindr (or her handle "Kayane"), or perhaps you've heard of Kayo Police? She's actually beaten Daigo's Ryu with C. Viper. It was epic to watch and a close match, but she seized a commanding lead with a rather brutal and relentless claim on his life bar. Heheh.

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So that makes it ok? The message she is sending is 'Sorry girls go back to your beauty magazines and stay away from gaming that is a boy thing'. I LIKE gaming IS it SO WRONG to want some representation in the hard core gaming area? Even miss male character is a huge step in the right direction. I don't expect flowery dialog in a FPS game even if they include a girl avatar option... I just want the avatar option (the dialog can come in RPGs). Let more girls enjoy gaming in a less sexist way and I suspect over the years it will become less and less one sided gender wise. Contrary to popular belief we would love to blast some bad guys to let off steam from time to time... just give us the chance without all the angry attacks from the internet.

I wonder why there's suddenly this backlash from male gamers? I'm sure it couldn't be because of the divisive righteous anger of people in response to crap like Anita Sarkeesian's sexist and fundamentally flawed line of reasoning, and the storm of media controversy painting it all as "women vs gamers" (which is really freaking insulting by the way, because there are a lot of women gamers, and trans-women gamers by the way).

...crap, now after talking about the match between Daigo and Rayo, I have an urge to play some fighting games. I've been kind of itching to play some Soul Calibur lately, but the girl I usually play with is out of town, and it's her copy of Soul Calibur that we play (she brings it over and we play on our X-Box). I should see if I can dig up my copy of Street Fighter EX+Alpha (my sister and I used to play that game all the time) or Soul Calibur II (my sis used to play this one with us frequently as well) since it'll play on my sister's Wii; but my sister has been hanging it with her boyfriend in all her free time so; I guess I'll need to ask my brother if he'd be down for some Street Fighter IV, or see if my buddy Jay wants to play (he might bring over his copy of SSFIV-Tournamnet-whatever it was).

Actually, if you have Hamachi, we could probably play Street Fighter Alpha II via ZSNES netplay features. Wanna play?


I'd play 4 or 5 with you if you play on Xbox 360.

More on topic, I won't say the gamer culture is all inclusive, it has its share of both white knights and misogynists (both sexist in their own special way), bigots and other categories of a*!*%++, but then...what group doesn't?

It's not gaming culture that's at fault, it's culture, full stop.


Nevermind, my brother's going out with a couple of his friends, so no SFIV practice today. Q_Q


Rynjin wrote:

I'd play 4 or 5 with you if you play on Xbox 360.

More on topic, I won't say the gamer culture is all inclusive, it has its share of both white knights and misogynists (both sexist in their own special way), bigots and other categories of a*%$@%*, but then...what group doesn't?

It's not gaming culture that's at fault, it's culture, full stop.

I do play on Xbox 360. I sadly don't have Xbox Live, or else I'd be playing waaaaay more frequently. :P


Buy an adapter for like $40. You don't need Gold to play SC online.


Rynjin wrote:
Buy an adapter for like $40. You don't need Gold to play SC online.

Wait, really? O.o

Now I am so much more interested in buying a copy of Soul Calibur V now, instead of just playing it when my friend brings her copy over. :o


Yeah, pretty sure I played it with a friend after my Gold ran out before, and that I've played with Silver members.

I actually haven't played V a whole ton (played IV a LOT though), so it'd be cool to play it with somebody. I don't like what they did to Yoshimitsu (they swapped his moves around a bit, some to different button combos. Damn you muscle memory!) but it's fun.


Rynjin wrote:

Yeah, pretty sure I played it with a friend after my Gold ran out before, and that I've played with Silver members.

I actually haven't played V a whole ton (played IV a LOT though), so it'd be cool to play it with somebody. I don't like what they did to Yoshimitsu (they swapped his moves around a bit, some to different button combos. Damn you muscle memory!) but it's fun.

Unfortunately I didn't get to play IV (my brother said it has some serious balance issues, and he says this as the guy who always wins mind you, as he's very good at playing Sigfried and SC II Nightmare), but I didn't play it just because I didn't own it and was busy with other stuff at the time. I've actually been somewhat unimpressed with SC V's character roster, though I enjoyed the character creation options in it.

My favorite to play is Lizardman-combat style, followed by Nightmare and Sigfried, Mitsurugi, and Ivy is pretty cool too but I frequently end up making bad decisions with her (need way more practice with her). The girl with the orb and the one with the giant chakram (I can't remember their names as well as the others because they're newer SC characters) are too complex for my shotokan-brain. :P

I'd love to try SC IV and might see if I can find it at a used game store or something since the character roster looks way more interesting IMHO. Honestly if they remade SC II with character creation options I'd die happy. :P


Pfff... Tekken is the best Namco fighter!

...And Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 is the hypest of fighting games! ^^

Street Fighter vs Tekken never existed and shall not be discussed. :P


Ashiel wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Yeah, pretty sure I played it with a friend after my Gold ran out before, and that I've played with Silver members.

I actually haven't played V a whole ton (played IV a LOT though), so it'd be cool to play it with somebody. I don't like what they did to Yoshimitsu (they swapped his moves around a bit, some to different button combos. Damn you muscle memory!) but it's fun.

Unfortunately I didn't get to play IV (my brother said it has some serious balance issues, and he says this as the guy who always wins mind you, as he's very good at playing Sigfried and SC II Nightmare), but I didn't play it just because I didn't own it and was busy with other stuff at the time. I've actually been somewhat unimpressed with SC V's character roster, though I enjoyed the character creation options in it.

My favorite to play is Lizardman-combat style, followed by Nightmare and Sigfried, Mitsurugi, and Ivy is pretty cool too but I frequently end up making bad decisions with her (need way more practice with her). The girl with the orb and the one with the giant chakram (I can't remember their names as well as the others because they're newer SC characters) are too complex for my shotokan-brain. :P

I'd love to try SC IV and might see if I can find it at a used game store or something since the character roster looks way more interesting IMHO. Honestly if they remade SC II with character creation options I'd die happy. :P

There are some balance issues with IV, but most don't become apparent until higher levels of play, so IDGAF. The most glaringly obvious is that given two people of equal skill, Taki wins, pretty much always.

In order, my preferred characters are Vold, Yoshimitsu (he was my fave in IV), Mitsurugi, Lizardman...and Ezio. Ezio's just fun, he's one of the best balanced guest fighters since Link IMO.

The new characters in V are disappointing because many are just "New X". Monkey boy is Killik's new version (and is even MORE annoying to play against), there's replacements for Talim, Cassandra/Sophitia, and a few others as well, which trims the roster down already to not actually having many new characters. Even Yoshimitsu is technically "Yoshimitsu the 2nd", and he had a different voice actor on release I was sure. He sounds just like SC IV and previous Yoshimitsu now though, so I'm happy.

The only real new characters are Z.W.E.I (interesting, but I don't like him), Crystall ball chick, and...that's it I think.

I miss Zaslamel.


Lemmy wrote:

Pfff... Tekken is the best Namco fighter!

...And Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 is the hypest of fighting games! ^^

Street Fighter vs Tekken never existed and shall not be discussed. :P

Ooh, I love UMVC3, and I'd love to play that some more. I generally play Morrigan, Trish, and Virgil (kind of a devil team, I guess? :P).

I reeeaally love Morrigan. :D

I just bought SC V off Xbox live for $15.99. I asked my brother about IV or V, he said V, so that's what we got for now (I might get IV after my next paycheck or something).


Speaking of which... *runs off to play UMVC3 with his brother*


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Lemmy wrote:

On a serious note.

I don't have anything against women playing video-games or doing whatever they want, IMO, everyone should have the same rights independently of their gender/ethnicity/whatever. But I'll be against people claiming that games with male protagonists and sexy female characters are sexist, because that claim makes as much sense as saying Twilight is misandry because it has two shirtless guys fighting over a female protagonist.

The way I see, it makes perfect sense than media targeted at male audiences will be filled of stuff men like, including impossibly sexy women in skimpy outfit. Just like media targeted to female audiences will be filled with stuff women like, which apparently includes handsome vampires and shirtless werewolves.

I don't go around trying to make female-oriented games/movies/whatever have no shirtless guys. All I ask is that these modern "feminists" give me the same courtesy and stop trying to make male-oriented games/movies/whatever have no scantly-dressed gals.

First off I never liked Twilight...

Secondly we don't want you to remove ALL scantily clad women (ok Anita might) as long as a game doesn't play at all the women in it being nothing more than exorcises in giggle mechanics then most women would probably be fine with it. How hard is it to make a few sensibly dressed women to go along with the ones who don't wear much? That would go a long way for very little effort in making a game more girl friendly. I don't expect men to be tossed under the bus... lets face it there really are girls out there IRL who dress scantily to get boys. Having some in your game especially presented in a realistic manner isn't the issue. The issue is NOT having a counter balance of sensible women. If all you present is empty headed, half naked, giggle mechanics then girls aren't going to like it. It will come across as pure sexism. Heck you could even toss in a bit of witty dialog (or one liners in the case of a fight game) showing the disdain for the scantily clad girl by the sensible ones.

I am trying to talk for the average feminist rather than the two extremes.

Heck Paizo has a scantily clad iconic and nobody has screamed sexism. BUT they provide other ideals in their iconics as well. Show us as real people who come from a variety of backgrounds and tastes, THAT is realism, THAT is friendly to both genders.

----

In the case of a game featuring heavily the story of one man, That also isn't sexism (at least not just because of no female option) and unless you are Anita you probably aren't going to be overly concerned about it. You could add a female story path but I can understand why 1/8 of the hardcore market may not justify that change (at least not yet). I may want that female option but I am willing to wait till we take a bigger chunk of the market and justify having multiple story paths to it's creators. BUT presenting girls as real and varied people in your male centered story path may well stop driving girls away from the market. Imagine how HUGE game profits could be if you saw sales numbers showing the large female numbers casual games do in hardcore games as well! Imagine the kinds of awesome games developers could make with double the income they get now!

Will this happen overnight? Of course not. But doing something simple like removing sexism would definitely encourage the change sooner. Do you really NEED every girl in your game to be a sex object or a victim? Of course not. Can some of the girls fill this role without it becoming sexist? Yes. But show us as people... not all girls are victims. Girls can also be heroes.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Why does gaming with a girl seem SO threatening to boys?

There's a girl here, now we have to behave and watch what we say.

This only seems to happen in face to face games. Girls playing online hardcore games are often subjected to all manner of verbal abuse or lewd suggestions.

The game maker can't change this... but if girls were more normal in these games then I think the shock value would wear off and this abuse would be restricted to a small handful of trolls.

Shadow Lodge

Aranna wrote:
The only things she has been busy doing are trying to make the world better for her white male children...

How horrible of her. [rolls eyes]

Shadow Lodge

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Aranna wrote:
Girls playing online hardcore games are often subjected to all manner of verbal abuse or lewd suggestions.

I've got news for you: That isn't really especially gamers being sexist. That's gamers giving girl gamers equal treatment. Because GUYS playing online hardcore games are ALSO often subjected to all manner of verbal abuse...including lewd suggestions. Might be phrased a bit differently if they KNOW that it's a female they're talking to, but it doesn't really matter if it's a guy, a girl, or a g**##!n asexual alien from the Crab Nebula. They're gonna throw a lot of trash talk towards whoever or whatever it is playing against them.

The Exchange

Necromancer wrote:

To help get us back on track:

Kafkatrapping

This is why I'm concerned for game culture, because this is common in other media industries and growing in society at large. Please read.

2 points:

1. Claims of "concern for [fill in the blank] culture" make me think of the claims made against heavy metal in the '80s, and all the moral panics preceding it, including D&D. It just reads as ironic.

2. The invocation of Kafka left me very disappointed in the article as written. I was hoping for Kafka criticism. This is not it. I've read The Trial and I've read a lot of Kafka criticism. This was a shallow use of a story with many more dimensions to it that those he pointed out. An alternate reading (arrived at by several authors in the Ronald Gray anthology Franz Kafa: A Collection of Critical Essays): Kafka's K was guilty. There is no escape from guilt. The fact it can be invoked to make us do/think/feel things is not some flaw but the sum of its function, which Kafka was brilliant at describing. Does it make you feel bad? Then it is doing its job. Some external referent isn't necessary. The author seems to think this is bad for society. He is wrong. Kafka would tell him it is society, and, more than that, it is K.


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Aranna wrote:


Girls playing online hardcore games are often subjected to all manner of verbal abuse or lewd suggestions.

Have you tried logging on with a male handle ? There's no shortage of suggestion for those for the males either. A comedian on the subject Not safe for work (surprise)

Quote:

The game maker can't change this... but if girls were more normal in these games then I think the shock value would wear off and this abuse would be restricted to a small handful of trolls.

I think people throwing insults would still go for the easiest and most obvious thing they could use.

re kafka trapping. Not nearly as cool as I thought it would be

The Exchange

Necromancer wrote:
JurgenV wrote:
Necromancer wrote:

To help get us back on track:

Kafkatrapping

This is why I'm concerned for game culture, because this is common in other media industries and growing in society at large. Please read.

Yep that is exactly it.

Makes me think of the youtube guy called the amazing athiest that starts one vid whipping himself chanting"why am i white, why am i male, why can't i stop oppressing others?"

After reading it, I've decided to do two things:

1 - Reread The Trial (Der Prozess) and any other Kafka work I can get my hands on.

2 - Stop using the SJW pejorative and start calling people Kafkatrappers. More accuracy and less anger.

1. Congratulations! I'm a huge fan of Kafka. My favorite of his is "A Hunger Artist," and my second favorite is "Amerika." My third favorite is "A Country Doctor" for the longer short stories, pre-Aphorisms, but it is currently in a tie with "In the Penal Colony." "The Castle" and "The Trial" are better written than "Amerika" but I like his earlier epic better precisely because it is incomplete (or more incomplete than "The Castle") and because it is a wonderful European POV of what America means to an urbanized Prague Jew of the 1920s, and can be read as a criticism of both Americanism and urbanization while also seeing these forces as inexorable.

2. Please don't stop with just reading Kafka! You do yourself a disservice if you fail to read the Kafka criticism of the last 50 years! A lot of what has been written is contradictory, but each critic has added to my understanding, and what with Kafka's last papers finally being prepared for the public after protracted custody disputes, now is a good time to revisit it.

3. Kafkatrapper is not actually more accurate (see my previous post above). BUT if you want to argue it is, and do a different reading of "The Trial" than I have, be my guest. But once you read the truly brilliant criticism, such as by Albert Camus, people who throw around such a facile term as "Kafkaesque" will make you resentful when you read its overbroad and generalized misapplication. At least, it makes me resentful.

<shakes head, mumbles> people don't know what they're saying


Lemmy wrote:
Or maybe because women are actually taken seriously by the authorities when they say they have been raped and/or assaulted by their partner.

Okay, you SERIOUSLY need to explain this part, and tell me you are not saying what it seems to me that it's obvious you are saying...

cause i don't want to say what this sounds like you are saying here outside of a spoiler:
that if a man wants sex, his girlfriend/wife has an obligation to spread her legs on command.

Please tell me I am misreading what you meant, that you did not mean what I put in spoiler.

Also, many women are STILL not taken seriously when they are raped by their partner, because of what I put in spoiler. Or when it wasn't a partner, it's many times "well how could she have avoided the situation"?

If you were saying "Men can be raped/assaulted too but aren't taken seriously" then yes, that's true. Rape should be taken seriously no matter who the victim/rapist is, but to say that women are "actually taken seriously when they say they have been raped/assaulted by their partner" um no just as often they are not.

Just look at all the stuff recently with Christy Mack. Everyone is sooo sorry for her MMA superstar ex-boyfriend, oh she's a porn star oh well she shouldn't have been with another man, etc. She was broken up with him, and he came to her house and beat her nearly to death. Yet so much of the media and his fans are seeing HIM as the victim, under this delusion that she was cheating on him, or that if she was that somehow justifies him beating her nearly to death.

The Exchange

At second thought, I'm pretty sure that the Kafka criticism I read specifically about "The Trial" and the symbolic/literal aspects of K's guilt was by Walter Benjamin, and is not part of the Gray anthology. However, it should still be widely available.


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Aranna wrote:
Will this happen overnight? Of course not. But doing something simple like removing sexism would definitely encourage the change sooner. Do you really NEED every girl in your game to be a sex object or a victim? Of course not. Can some of the girls fill this role without it becoming sexist? Yes. But show us as people... not all girls are victims. Girls can also be heroes.

Um, do you...play hardcore games? Assuming we're talking about non-casual games, I immediately think of non-casual games I've played.

Almost All RPGs Loaded with awesome females who are rarely around for mere sex appeal and/or victim roles. This ranges from most any classic Squaresoft titles through the Baldur's Gate Series through modern RPGs like Dragon Age Origins.

Almost All Fighting Games Virtually every fighting game has several female fighters, most of which tend to be just as good and powerful as their male counterparts. One of the most oft-criticized for blatant sex-appeal being Ivy from Soul Calibur, yet she is one of the strongest characters in most SC games. Fighting games in general don't generally have a lot of character depth for male characters either (and are also exaggerated to various levels of idealization).

FPS like Battlefield You spend your entire time running around unable to see your character. When you do, they're covered in body armor. Sometimes (like in the Halo series) you aren't even human. The first spartan you see in the Halo animation movies is a...

Racing Games Games like Dirt, Grid, etc...well, you're in a car.

I would dare bet that for every game you can point out a female character that is a "sex object" or "victim", I can point out 3 female characters that aren't, or 3 male characters that are (or some combination in between). I'm going to bet on a 3 to 1 basis, just based on the games I've played since I've been alive. And I think 3 to 1 is a really "safe bet" as I think that it's actually probably easier to list more, but I'm assuming that maybe I'll be surprised.


Aranna: As you say, there are Anitas out there who WILL complain about anything that even vaguely smells of sexism. They are the ones pushing this internet meltdown. Hence, no, you really can't adapt in a sensible way. They will not be happy.

Claiming there has been no outrage about Seoni's clothes is not as I would describe it, not really. There have been outrage in an number of threads about it, a mainstay of every discussion about gender here.

One of the things that made people angry about Babylon 5 was that in one episode, Garibaldi had to help his old flame, a beautiful woman who had ended up in trouble, and had no stomach for fighting. As Straczynski put it, "not everyone is a fighter". And this is the show that gave us Ivanova and Delenn, and generally took it quite seriously to show women as complex, realistic characters from day one. It didn't help. Nor will adding in a number of realistic and plain clothed women distract these anger-peddlers from the extreme sexism of Paizo's Seoni. It is exactly the wrong time to make any sort of change when the hunt is on.

It is a good thing that you have a more moderate view of it, that you understand that it is going to take time, that at the end of the day, economics will enter into it. I wish all the screamers could take your position, Aranna.

The truth as I see it is that a) games are wish fulfillment and may need to distinguish between male and female demographics to function as that, which may not be all a bad thing, and b) games ARE getting better, beyond the stupid cardboard cutout characters for both men and women. That doesn't mean ALL of them are, of course.


AbsolutGrndZer0 ... what? No. Just.. no that is not at all what they're saying.


Ashiel wrote:


I would dare bet that for every game you can point out a female character that is a "sex object" or "victim", I can point out 3 female characters that aren't, or 3 male characters that are (or some combination in between). I'm going to bet on a 3 to 1 basis, just based on the games I've played since I've been alive. And I think 3 to 1 is a really "safe bet" as I think that it's actually probably easier to list more, but I'm assuming...

Okay, I'll take this challenge, Grand Theft Auto V (Online not included because women portrayal in that is entirely on the player) GO. (Don't get me wrong, I like GTAV, but when it comes to the game's portrayal of women, it's pretty bad when taken as a whole because I can't think of a single woman in that game that isn't a sex object or a victim)


AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


I would dare bet that for every game you can point out a female character that is a "sex object" or "victim", I can point out 3 female characters that aren't, or 3 male characters that are (or some combination in between). I'm going to bet on a 3 to 1 basis, just based on the games I've played since I've been alive. And I think 3 to 1 is a really "safe bet" as I think that it's actually probably easier to list more, but I'm assuming...

Okay, I'll take this challenge, Grand Theft Auto V (Online not included because women portrayal in that is entirely on the player) GO. (Don't get me wrong, I like GTA5, but when it comes to the game's portrayal of women, it's pretty bad)

Oh, and just to clarify how I am presenting this, I am putting every woman I can think of from the game on the "bad" side, so tell me who should be on the "good" side.

I haven't played GTA V. Can you be more specific? Do you have a character name? Telling me "GTA V's portrayal of women is pretty bad", that's kind of vague, and the first thing it makes me think of is "GTA's protrayal of everybody is pretty bad". It's kind of a running gag. If you turn on the radio in pretty much every GTA game since III that I have played, you are treated to a hilarious parade of the worst examples of human beings and intentionally poor stereotypes. It's a game series that has little old ladies that call people douchebags when they pass you on the sidewalk.

But since I haven't played GTA V specifically, I can't really comment on it. Do you have some video examples, or a link to a character description? My brother has GTA V, so if you can give me a few days, I might be able to answer more adequately after I do some research (and by research, I mean playing the game, and you won't even have to donate to a kickstarter for me to do it).


Ashiel wrote:
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


I would dare bet that for every game you can point out a female character that is a "sex object" or "victim", I can point out 3 female characters that aren't, or 3 male characters that are (or some combination in between). I'm going to bet on a 3 to 1 basis, just based on the games I've played since I've been alive. And I think 3 to 1 is a really "safe bet" as I think that it's actually probably easier to list more, but I'm assuming...

Okay, I'll take this challenge, Grand Theft Auto V (Online not included because women portrayal in that is entirely on the player) GO. (Don't get me wrong, I like GTA5, but when it comes to the game's portrayal of women, it's pretty bad)

Oh, and just to clarify how I am presenting this, I am putting every woman I can think of from the game on the "bad" side, so tell me who should be on the "good" side.

I haven't played GTA V. Can you be more specific? Do you have a character name? Telling me "GTA V's portrayal of women is pretty bad", that's kind of vague, and the first thing it makes me think of is "GTA's protrayal of everybody is pretty bad". It's kind of a running gag. If you turn on the radio in pretty much every GTA game since III that I have played, you are treated to a hilarious parade of the worst examples of human beings. It's a game series that has little old ladies that call people douchebags when they pass you on the sidewalk.

But since I haven't played GTA V specifically, I can't really comment on it. Do you have some video examples, or a link to a character description? My brother has GTA V, so if you can give me a few days, I might be able to answer more adequately after I do some research (and by research, I mean playing the game, and you won't even have to donate to a kickstarter for me to do it).

Well, yes GTA5 is all around bad and all around offensive to everyone and yes it's very satirical, but it has strippers (many of which prostitute on the side), a wife who cheats on her husband with the yoga instructor, a daughter that works as webcam girl and calls herself "Tracey Suxx" who later tries to get into porn movies, etc. The point is, even among ALL the bad portrayals of everyone, there isn't a single non-sex based portrayal of women in that game.

And now, it bears saying I have no problem with strippers, prostitutes, porn stars, especially not webcam girls... but when that along with a cheating wife (oh and she's an ex-stripper whose husband bought her implants even before she quit and married him) and an ex-FIB (GTA world's equivalent of FBI) agent who once dated and slept with a thug to get close to his operation and ends up dead is all the game has (and random women on the street that have no name and no story don't count) that's where the challenge comes in.

Also, I know a lot of you don't like her, and I've said I don't always agree with her, but Anita Sarkeesian said "Satirical sexism is still sexism."


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Aranna wrote:
First off I never liked Twilight...

Which is... completely besides the point. I don't like Dead or Alive either, but I don't think it's wrong to create/play a game with half-naked ninjas. Nor do I think it's wrong of women to like Twilight (I think it's an awful story, but not because it has shirtless dudes).

Aranna wrote:

Secondly we don't want you to remove ALL scantily clad women (ok Anita might) as long as a game doesn't play at all the women in it being nothing more than exorcises in giggle mechanics then most women would probably be fine with it. How hard is it to make a few sensibly dressed women to go along with the ones who don't wear much? That would go a long way for very little effort in making a game more girl friendly. I don't expect men to be tossed under the bus... lets face it there really are girls out there IRL who dress scantily to get boys. Having some in your game especially presented in a realistic manner isn't the issue. The issue is NOT having a counter balance of sensible women. If all you present is empty headed, half naked, giggle mechanics then girls aren't going to like it. It will come across as pure sexism. Heck you could even toss in a bit of witty dialog (or one liners in the case of a fight game) showing the disdain for the scantily clad girl by the sensible ones.

I am trying to talk for the average feminist rather than the two extremes.

There are many games with cool female characters with sensible clothing and realistic proportions. Just this week, I finished, for the 3rd time, Tomb Raider. And am playing for the 2nd time Resident Evil Revelations (my favorite RE game so far, and I've been playing them since the original RE for Play station!) and Transistor. Not to mention a bunch of games where I play both male and female characters, like basically every fighting game ever. And by gods, I finish Super Metroid at least twice a year!

Want more games like that? Create and/or buy more of them! Because it's no one's duty to give do it for you.

I don't much care if the game includes half-naked women or not. It won't sell me a game, nor will it bother me. I love fighting games. I grew up with them and have even been to a few tournaments (just for fun, I don't have the skill to actually be a serious contender for the top 8). I don't like Dead or Alive, nor do I like Arcana Hearts, two fighting games where basically every female character is impossibly hot. However, I love Skull Girls, because it's a legitimately good game. The game is balanced, fast-paced and incredibly fun to play. The cast only includes 1 male character, though (2 one soon to be added), and while not all female characters are overly sexualized, most of them are. It has no weight on my enjoyment of the game. I understand why women wouldn't like to play it, just like I probably wouldn't like to play a game where most characters are ripped guys in speedos. But I wouldn't see it as sexism and tell the community that the game should be more inclusive.

There's nothing wrong with creating/playing a game where female is an impossibly busty scantily clad amazon, just like there is nothing wrong with creating/playing a game where every male is an impossibly ripped shirtless hunk.

If you don't like one or another, you don't play it. What I hate is the idea that enjoying these games is sexist. Especially when it's defended by people who never play games.

Anita Sarkeesian is a cancer that does nothing but hurt the cause of real feminism. Sensible people see her false and misleading allegations and they can't help but think "This is what curr feminists are? I shouldn't take them seriously...", thus hurts the credibility of real feminists.

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Or maybe because women are actually taken seriously by the authorities when they say they have been raped and/or assaulted by their partner.

Okay, you SERIOUSLY need to explain this part, and tell me you are not saying what it seems to me that it's obvious you are saying...

** spoiler omitted **

Please tell me I am misreading what you meant, that you did not mean what I put in spoiler.

I honestly have no idea how you got that from what I said...

All I meant is that if a man goes to the authorities and says his wife/girlfriend/random woman raped or assaulted him, chances are they will laugh at him and send him on his way, rather than take his claims seriously.

I specifically mentioned cases of sexist treatment against men, as an example that being female has it's own advantages and privileges, just like being male does.

I don't think chauvinism is nearly as prevalent and one-sided (in modernized countries) as Tumblr "feminists" claim it is. Real Feminism started as a fight for equality, but nowadays it's heavily contaminated by bigots spreading of hatred and misandry. Which hurts the whole cause. It's hard to take feminist serious when they so often decide to side with people like Anita Sarkeesian instead of Dr. Sommers.


Are there ANY characters in GTA V that are portrayed well?

The main characters are: A sociopathic car thief cum getaway driver, a sociopathic (but trying to reform, sort of) ex bank robber, and a full blown psycopath redneck thug.

The side characters run the gamut from someone who does nothing but smoke some seriously whacked out marijuana to a character who thinks aliens are arriving on Earth to an old couple who want you to bust into celebrity homes to steal souvenirs for them.

There is NO character that is portrayed as a normal upstanding member of society. Because that's not the point. The closest thing we get is Franklin's aunt, and she's not normal either (but definitely not sexualized, so you're wrong in saying there's not one. She's just a straw feminist/every woman who jumps on the hot new bandwagon person).


Lemmy wrote:

I honestly have no idea how you got that from what I said...

All I meant is that if a man goes to the authorities and says his wife/girlfriend/random woman raped or assaulted him, chances are they will laugh at him and send him on his way, rather than take his claims seriously.

Okay, then I apologize, but the way you said it isn't always true. There are MANY women who walk into the police station and say "My husband raped me" and they are told to go home, that's not rape.

So, yes anyone that comes in with a claim of assault or rape should be taken seriously, regardless of their gender, in fact that was a big part of Emma Watson's recent speech to the UN. Feminism is a issue for men and women.

Don't say "Men get raped too." say "Stop raping people."

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