Scorpion Whip


Rules Questions

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Well the only strange part about the UE Scorpion is the vague description about how you can use it "as a whip" and the what the meaning of being able to use it as a whip entail (Does it become 1-Handed ? If you use it as a whip on your turn do you still threaten after that ? etc.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Loengrin wrote:
Well the only strange part about the UE Scorpion is the vague description about how you can use it "as a whip" and the what the meaning of being able to use it as a whip entail (Does it become 1-Handed ? If you use it as a whip on your turn do you still threaten after that ? etc.)

Also, if you can deal nonlethal without penalty.


If you use it as a Whip you can deal non-lethal as a whip... And you can't do lethal and no damage to armor of +1 or natural armor of +3... :/


Imbicatus wrote:
Hawktitan wrote:
They could argue, because Ultimate Equipment is a later printing and could be considered errata to the scorpion whip.
Except AA is still in additional resources, and there isn't any blurb that you must use the version in UE.

So, now the AA version is the "official" one used in PFS, despite being from an older book.

Which is a good thing, as that means it's got the Reach, Trip, and Disarm qualities, instead of just Performance.

This still doesn't answer the question on whether the whip-proficient user can use 15' reach, or threaten, or any of the actual unanswered questions surrounding the weapon.

-j

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, have we decided how the AA version works?

Sovereign Court

As a whip, except for the parts called out to be different?

Sovereign Court

Like a normal whip, except for those parts called out to be different?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, then, let's see:

1) Does it function with Whip feats, such as Whip Mastery, or Weapon Focus(Whip)?

2) Can you deal nonlethal, without penalty?

3) Does it threaten?

4) Does it provoke when used?

5) Is it finessable?

6) Can it be enchanted, as a whip?


7) What kind of an action is it to switch from using a Scorpion Whip as a Scorpion Whip, to using it as a regular Whip.

All of which seems to boil down to: is a Scorpion Whip a Whip?

Grand Lodge

Maybe I'm missing the difficulty.

1. Yes, it's a whip.

2. No, it does lethal damage unless you take a -4 penalty to use a lethal weapon to do non-lethal damage.

3. No, unless modified by 1., it's a whip.

4. Yes, it's a whip.

5. Yes, it's a whip.

6. It can be enchanted as a slashing melee weapon. What enchantments are specific to whips?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Starglim wrote:

Maybe I'm missing the difficulty.

1. Yes, it's a whip.

2. No, it does lethal damage.

3. No, unless modified by 1., it's a whip.

4. Yes, it's a whip.

5. Yes, it's a whip.

6. It can be enchanted as a slashing melee weapon. What enchantments are specific to whips?

Prehensile enchantment, is whip only.

Are all these answers the same, if using it as a Scorpion Whip, and not as a Whip?

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Starglim wrote:
6. It can be enchanted as a slashing melee weapon. What enchantments are specific to whips?
Prehensile enchantment, is whip only.

Thanks. That would apply to a scorpion whip, because it's a whip.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are all these answers the same, if using it as a Scorpion Whip, and not as a Whip?

I answered for using it as a scorpion whip. How would you use it as something else than it is?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, there is no difference, between using it as Scorpion Whip, or using it as a Whip?

Also, would Whip Mastery allow you to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Whip Mastery (Combat)

Your superior expertise with this weapon does not provoke attacks of opportunity from your enemies.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), base attack bonus +2.

Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature’s armor bonus or natural armor bonus.

Normal: Attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity as if you used a ranged weapon. A whip deals no damage to a creature that has an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3.

Note the bolded portion.

Sovereign Court

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, there is no difference, between using it as Scorpion Whip, or using it as a Whip?

Nope, they're the same thing, only the scorpion whip has sharp bits so it's lethal and goes through armour. That's the only difference.

blackbloodtroll wrote:


Also, would Whip Mastery allow you to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Whip Mastery (Combat)

Your superior expertise with this weapon does not provoke attacks of opportunity from your enemies.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), base attack bonus +2.

Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature’s armor bonus or natural armor bonus.

Normal: Attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity as if you used a ranged weapon. A whip deals no damage to a creature that has an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3.

Note the bolded portion.

You're out of luck there, because of the word "still". Scorpion whips never did nonlethal in the first place, so they can't "still" be used that way.


Sure they did nonlethal.

The same way you can do nonlethal with any other normally lethal weapon.

Take the attack penalty.

-j


The way it's written, it could indeed mean you treat the Scorpion Whip as a Whip for all purposes except where it calls out a difference, namely being lethal and damaging armored targets.

But the text could alternatively very well just be intended to mean you just don't have to take a seperate proficiency if you're already proficient in whip.

It's worded vaguely either way, and unclear enough that it warrants clarification.

Heck, the text doesn't really say how long a Scorpion Whip is.

-j


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Ok, I just wasted two f%$^ing hours of my life trying to figure out what the hell a Scorpion Whip does. What have I accomplished in that time? Well, obviously I have become fairly annoyed but other than that, not much.

I don't honestly get upset about rulings on things ever. I can't even explain why this has me so annoyed. I think it is mostly because there is just no explanation on it.

This was the latest thread I could find on the topic so rather than starting a new one (which I may still do) I figured I would post here first as this has already been marked as a FAQ candidate multiple times.

Lets review.

This thread is a stinking pile of trash that got me started on my trek for an answer. No offense to the OP or anyone who posted in it. My animosity comes from lack of answers and increase in confusion, not towards any individuals. Nonetheless it does contain some links to developer's posts on the topic.

...including this one. We have blackbloodtroll to thank for getting those answers from JJ. Unfortunately he gave 6 answers to 7 questions and didn't number them so it is anyone's best guess as to which answers belong to which questions. So, no offense to JJ, I'm sure it was an honest mistake but due to this problem his post is a complete waste. :(

There is this additional resources section which refers to Pathfinder Society play and what is legal. Let me shorten it up for you, it says this:

Quote:

Ultimate Equipment...

The scorpion whip found in this book is no longer legal. Please refer to the Adventurer’s Armory for the legal version.

It makes no other mention of the scorpion whip anywhere else in that document.

There is also this thread. Let me shorten that up for you. From JJ we get the following:

JJ wrote:
Yup; if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do.

There is also this.

Here is what SKR said:
SRK wrote:
A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table.

The problem here is that was printed back in 2010 before the 2nd printing of Adventurer's Armory or before Ultimate Equipment.

So where does that leave us? NOWHERE! Arg, it is so frustrating. Honestly, it gets us right back to the same questions that BBT posted to JJ. It is amazing that there have been this many FAQ requests, threads have even been marked as "answered in the FAQ" but they weren't, and we are no closer to an answer on this than when it was first printed. I just want to know what it does.

Seriously, it is ruining character concepts for me right now before I even build them. If I knew which way it worked then I could build around it. It doesn't matter to me which way it works, I just don't want to make a build and then have to change it mid-stream, get hammered by a nerf stick and told I do not get a free rebuild in PFS or something. I am hesitant to even post build concepts to have them attacked by other posters saying, "You can't do that with a Whip/Scorpion Whip." or, "Those feats don't work like that for that weapon." or any number of other things. I wouldn't blame them for posting but because there is absolutely no clarity on this weapon I would feel better avoiding it altogether until a ruling is made.

I seriously do not mean this to come off as a rant. I am upset but at no one in particular. Mostly, I am upset that so much time has passed and the subject has only become MORE complex, not less.


Should we try for 100 faq hits on this?


Lets do it.
...but should we start a new thread?


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This bugs me so much. Seriously, what is so confusing? Scorpion whip uses everything in it's own weapon stat line. Then if you have a feat or ability that asks 'is it a whip?' you can say 'yes'.
Exotic weapon proficiency whip - yep, I can use it without penalty
Weapon focus: whip - yay! it's a whip I get +1 to hit
Weapon finesse, you know what it isn't actually a whip and it's a light weapon so yeah I can finesse it.

Is there anyone who seriously believes it can mean anything else?

I accept there is some ambiguity in the language used, but when the alternative is a weapon that changes lengths and all the other ridiculousness I can't believe there can be much in the way of meaningful support for the alternative.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It should just work like the Gladius.

How does the Gladius work?

Well, all feats, abilities, proficiencies, and so on, work with the Gladius, as if it were a Shortsword.

The difference?

The Gladius can do S or P, and has the Performance quality.

That's it. A Shortsword with some extra goodies.

That's how it should work.

Unfortunately, we have no idea how the Scorpion Whip really works.

It could work like the Gladius, but we don't know.


What don't we know, exactly?

Explain to me why it would work any other way, please, because I genuinely wish to know. Please, don't just say we don't know, explain to me why I am wrong.

Because it seems to me that to read it any other way than what I have said is to fall into the same mistake as Elemental Fist/Master of Many Styles trap. That is another supposed issue that is solved by using common sense - If there are two ways to read an ability and one way works and the other doesn't...

[EDIT: to ameliorate an unwanted and unintended tone]

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Whoah.

Tone down the "What?! Are you f*cking stupid?!?" vibe.


I'm sorry, causing offence was not my intention.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It's cool. We all can get heated.

Here are some of the problems:

There are a number of different write-ups, in different books, that state how the Scorpion Whip works.

There is also, a number of different opinions, from different Developers, on how the Scorpion Whip works. These opinions have changed from time to time too.

If you are DM, or worse, a PFS judge, and now you have to interpret different rules sources, it's a hassle. You look for advice with Developers, and you get different, and sometimes conflicting results.

You do what you can, just to not flat out house rule it, which, if you are a PFS judge, you can't.

So, let's say you have a "common sense" ruling. It's legit.

Then, someone else has a "common sense" ruling, that is totally different.
It's totally legit too.

If you are looking for a "common sense" solution, then a FAQ/Errata is what you are asking.

Just wipe the board clean, and have an official "it works this way".


dragonhunterq: There are 3 printings of the Scorpion Whip. (AA first printing, UE, and AA second printing) Which stat line do you think it should use as they are all different? As an example: not all of them are light weapons so are you sure about the weapon finesse ruling?

There have been multiple Dev rulings on it which do not completely agree. Which Dev ruling should we go with?

Did you read my post? Did you see the questions that BBT posted? If you doubt that there is any confusion on this matter I suggest re-reading my post and actually following the links and reading the questions people have asked. I seriously do not know how someone could come to the conclusion that the Scorpion Whip is a cut and dried issue. I don't even know anyone, other than you, who has said that they think they completely understand it. No one does. I don't think there is even a Dev who does, honestly.

Like I said before, I am upset about the issue but not at anyone in particular. I'm mostly just upset that YEARS have went by without this being addressed anywhere officially. No FAQ or Errata. Even after several threads with several FAQ requests, some of which being listed with "answered in FAQ" when it hasn't been.


Lune wrote:

Lets do it.

...but should we start a new thread?

Maybe this hasn't been flagged as not having been answered or no answer needed but it also only has 9 total hits. Which means it isn't high on the list from how i understand it works. Either method would require a large enough number of people FAQing to have the devs feel the question is actually a question.


Meh, I'm fine with using this thread. Lets just all flag the initial post. Flagging my post I don't think will do much. We can start a FAQ campaign. Mention it to all your friends! ;)

We want action and we want it now!
Hm.. I'm bad at thinking of things to put on picket signs. Now... pitchforks and torches. I'm good at that. heh heh >:D


NoooOOo!!1!one!

Don't let the thread die. 12 FAQ votes aren't nearly enough to get Dev attention.
...and I'd rather not start a new thread.

Lantern Lodge

I feel like I've faq'ed this issue a few times on different threads. But nothing hurts doing it again. :D

Sczarni

The other reason folks like BBT, myself and others want the Scorpion Whip to work is that it's the only viable way a whip specialist can get their weapon made from special materials like Adamantine, Silversheen, etc.

It sucks to have to invest so many damn feats into a primary weapon to find out that it becomes nigh useless at higher encounter levels.

=(

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Just getting the threatening, and provoking questions answered, would be nice.


Actually care less about HOW it works so long as there is clarification. I just want to know how to build my characters. And I would really prefer a cut and dried answer before having to deal with "table variation" at PFS tables.

You know, I think what would work best is if we just asked for this:
Could you give a description of everything that a Scorpion Whip can do without referencing the Whip.

...then, tell us what it can also do if you have the Whip Proficiency without referencing the Whip.


I'm wondering if another thread with a better starting post detailing the issue better so the Dev team will no exactly what they need to clarify.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Well, what, then, does everyone want answered? I'm thinking that BBT's list would be a good start. So we have:

1) Does it function with Whip feats, such as Whip Mastery, or Weapon Focus(Whip)?

2) Can you deal nonlethal, without penalty?

3) Does it threaten?

4) Does it provoke when used?

5) Is it finessable?

6) Can it be enchanted, as a whip?

I'll add a couple more:

7) Does it have reach? How much? Does it threaten within all of it's reach?

8) What special materials can it be made out of?

9) Which feats that apply to Whips can apply to Scorpion Whips? (Whip Mastery line of feats, Weapon Focus, etc.)

I think most of these could be answered if we simply asked:
Could you give a description of everything that a Scorpion Whip can do without referencing the Whip.

...then, tell us what it can also do if you have the Whip Proficiency without referencing the Whip.

Do we need anything else?


I think that about Covers it.

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