Goblin Squad Member
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Good morning,
I've been contemplating for some time what race I shall make Buurz the Fishwife in game: A dwarf because they are short and plump or a human because Buurz is indeed a human. On doing some research into racial traits, it kind of hit me that dwarves, more than the other two races, have a higher disadvantage when it comes to being an adventurer. Now, these disadvantages are definitely small but the OCD in me cannot let me play a race that gives me three skills already in the negative (that have nothing to do with crafting) and very little bonuses to adventuring (when compared to the other races). It seems whilst the other two races have a proportional divide between adventuring and crafting bonuses, dwarves are left with a high intensity of crafting bonuses coupled with low to negative adventuring bonuses, no fun!
I was wondering if these racial traits are are set in stone or if they are eligible for alteration?
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Goblin Squad Member
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After taking a look at the character customizer I realized that elves are REALLY overpowered. Their blinding damage is insane.
I really hope that post alpha you rework their faces and ears. They look like a dramatized version of elves and I hope I'm not alone in saying they are pretty darn ugly IMO.
Seriously nerf the elves' visual damage!
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Goblin Squad Member
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After taking a look at the character customizer I realized that elves are REALLY overpowered. Their blinding damage is insane.
I really hope that post alpha you rework their faces and ears. They look like a dramatized version of elves and I hope I'm not alone in saying they are pretty darn ugly IMO.
Seriously nerf the elves' visual damage!
That's pretty funny :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The ears are fine, it's the angle on the male ones that needs to be fixed.
The width is seriously off as well. Looking at pictures of Pathfinder elves their ears seem to generally be significantly thinner and not point so directly straight up (and both the male and female models point too straight up). They may or may not be the same length. The PFO models are certainly pushing the edges of how long they can be.
I suppose it's fine if there is ear customization at some point but the models currently in PFO should represent the longest, widest, most upward pointing ears possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The ears are fine, it's the angle on the male ones that needs to be fixed.The width is seriously off as well. Looking at pictures of Pathfinder elves their ears seem to generally be significantly thinner and not point so directly straight up (and both the male and female models point too straight up). They may or may not be the same length. The PFO models are certainly pushing the edges of how long they can be.
I suppose it's fine if there is ear customization at some point but the models currently in PFO should represent the longest, widest, most upward pointing ears possible.
The female ears are fine. The shapes are fine. It's the angle on the male ears that's got everybody laughing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Back to dwarf racial bonuses... they have significant advantages as fighters and clerics, iirc.
I wouldn't say as significant as elven wizards, but they do have some bonuses towards these roles. My issue is they have a lot of negatives to adventuring (more than the other 2 races) AND don't have many adventure bonuses. They do have heavy bonuses on crafting though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wizards have their own set of problems (such as friendly fire).
I'm not sure how that relates to my point? So dwarven wizards will have that to worry about + the less than adequate racial bonuses.
I'm fine with that being the case, I'm just curious if there is a chance racial traits will be tweaked or is this the final frontier?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In TeamSpeak Saturday, Ryan said the PFO Elves are probably truer to the canon lore in appearance than many of the PFRPG depictions.
What Ryan is talking about is the Player's guide and even the Elves of Golarion sourcebook which both have almost WoW looking elves. The PFO elves are certainly more canon than those. Meresiel is the prototype Pathfinder elf. Rail thin, tall, with oval heads that look somewhere between a Brian Froud fairy and a martian. The shoulders are broad compared to rest of thr frame but not sticking out like a T as they are on the female elf. The ears are long, thin, pointed enough to poke your eye and cock back at about 15-20 degree angle with a slight bend outwards. Pathfinder canon does not have doberman pincher elf ears.
The build 8 elves are indeed more canon than most Pathfinder artwork and for the most part are the best models in the game so far. That doesn't mean they don't have mistakes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wizards have their own set of problems (such as friendly fire).Dwarven Wizards have no problems with friendly fire. It's the friends that get in the way of their fire that have the problems. :-)
And I like my dwarven wizard, thank you very much.
Im playing a dwarf wizard too. The racial bonuses will be felt strongly at tier 1, slightly at tier 2, and pretty much won't be felt at tier 3. I think that's perfect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That doesn't mean they don't have mistakes.
It was a coincidence that my prior comment appeared immediately after your post; I was not meaning to suggest your analysis was incorrect. I'm a relative newcomer to Pathfinder, having only learned about it because of my introduction to Pathfinder Online. I defer to others far more informed than I am when it comes to issues like these, but wanted to share Ryan's comments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the visual style of PFO was to be based off the visual style of the artwork in the books. Not a strict interpretation of canon.
I don't think the portion of the audience who will get positively giddy over strict cannon interpretation will offset the number of people off-put by ears the size of shortswords if this game's audience expands very far beyond the P&P gamers that the marketing efforts have focused on so far.
As I said. They need to make sure ears are customizable when the game launches so that the strict-lore enthusiast can bring down planes if that's what they want but other's not so hot on it have the option to play something looking more like this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nevy, I don't know whether they're set in stone, but I'll bet there is room for some fine tuning.
The other thing to keep in mind is that -5, and even -10, are less of a hindrance than they seem. Skill levels extend all the way from 10 to 300.
Will a dwarf that starts with -5 in Dowsing be able to cap out at 300 or max at 295?
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Goblin Squad Member
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this.
That is pretty much exactly the look the PFO elves have right now. The elf models are actually really good, just have some glaring mistakes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will a dwarf that starts with -5 in Dowsing be able to cap out at 300 or max at 295?Nevy, I don't know whether they're set in stone, but I'll bet there is room for some fine tuning.
The other thing to keep in mind is that -5, and even -10, are less of a hindrance than they seem. Skill levels extend all the way from 10 to 300.
The cap is 300 no matter what, Dwarves just need an extra 5 in equipment/feats to get there. I am dowsing with an elf and a dwarf right now. The dwarf is specced for it the elf is not, and the elf is a much better dowser. But those are 3 day old characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is pretty much exactly the look the PFO elves have right now.this.
Points I'd like to call attention to. The flair of the ears from the head. The width at the base of the ear. And which one looks way the heck better.
Yeah I agree the ears need some work at the base as well. The tips look good though. The overall art style is correct however. All together they are nice for 1st models.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will a dwarf that starts with -5 in Dowsing be able to cap out at 300 or max at 295?
Everyone caps at 300; the bonuses and maluses simply mean some can quit digging for those last few points earlier, or have to dig that little bit harder. You'll be able to get 200 points from training, and everything from all other sources will get you to 300.
Dwarves should be able to train to 200, like everyone else, but they'd need to find 105 points of "everything else Dowsery".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ear length and shape look almost identical between those two pictures.
Length maybe. If the shape looks the same to you, you may need your eyes checked. The top picture's are much thinner and sleeker. They go from a base the size of a normal human ear or smaller to a thin point while the base of the other is far larger than a normal human ear. The top also flair out from the head a bit while the bottom cling to it as if for dear life.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One group of bonuses I don't agree with for dwarves is anything that has to do with wood working. Dwarves are at their best when working with minerals. I would assume they would only make average woodcutters and carpenters. Perhaps the bonuses can be taken from those skills and moved to someplace more fitting?
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Goblin Squad Member
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One group of bonuses I don't agree with for dwarves is anything that has to do with wood working. Dwarves are at their best when working with minerals. I would assume they would only make average woodcutters and carpenters. Perhaps the bonuses can be taken from those skills and moved to someplace more fitting?
Yes, perhaps it can go to +5 Officer and +5 Senechal. I can understand the -5 Sage and -5 Dowser but not -5 Senechal and -5 Officer. Please note Dwarves are the only race with -20 points.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One group of bonuses I don't agree with for dwarves is anything that has to do with wood working. Dwarves are at their best when working with minerals. I would assume they would only make average woodcutters and carpenters. Perhaps the bonuses can be taken from those skills and moved to someplace more fitting?Yes, perhaps it can go to +5 Officer and +5 Senechal. I can understand the -5 Sage and -5 Dowser but not -5 Senechal and -5 Officer. Please note Dwarves are the only race with -20 points.
I'd like to hear from the devs but there may be a reason we don't know yet that could swing the pendulum hard towards dwarfs: encumbrance. Encumbrance promises to be a big thing in PFO and traditionally dwarves have a bonus to that.
It might be foresight on GW's part to gimp them with stats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One group of bonuses I don't agree with for dwarves is anything that has to do with wood working. Dwarves are at their best when working with minerals. I would assume they would only make average woodcutters and carpenters. Perhaps the bonuses can be taken from those skills and moved to someplace more fitting?Yes, perhaps it can go to +5 Officer and +5 Senechal. I can understand the -5 Sage and -5 Dowser but not -5 Senechal and -5 Officer. Please note Dwarves are the only race with -20 points.I'd like to hear from the devs but there may be a reason we don't know yet that could swing the pendulum hard towards dwarfs: encumbrance. Encumbrance promises to be a big thing in PFO and traditionally dwarves have a bonus to that.
It might be foresight on GW's part to gimp them with stats.
Exactly I'd love to hear about these things!
As of now, the -20 towards feats coupled with the high bonuses for crafting make playing a dwarf pretty undesirable for someone pursuing adventuring. Perhaps this is intended, though.
Elves look like crap. But Dwarves seem really nice. I haven't been able to secure a hammer yet, but I envision my PC Dwarf (in EE) to be a Hammer wielder.
I think the issue with elves is that they are so strangely built. Adding different body types would be helpful.
I think being able to have +20 to mining and +20 to smelting (altho I haven't seen that helping much in practice, you'd think that would give you smelting 2 to start... but it doesn't) means you can spec maybe mining 1/smelting 1 and go full fighter and still be able to pull in some decent ore/refine.
I've seen no issues. I have one dwarf adventurer and another that is just gaining exp. I made one elf wizard, but I haven't used her yet.
<==Dwarf Bard enough said
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big question for me, dwarves traditionally have a movement speed penalty. Will they eventually see such a penalty in PFO?
It the answer is yes I'd like to see them get some pretty major bonuses to balance that out.
I suspect a bonus big enough to offset the crippling annoyance of a movement penalty would generate far more complaints (ie omg plz nerf) than they would be worth.