Character creation Stats


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion


Is there a written statement somewhere about what specific rules should be used for character creation for the adventure paths in order to keep them challenging? My group likes to make uber characters using their own rules. Most of the time I find that fun, but it rarely turns out fun for the DM (whoever it is from our group for that AP). They invariably get butt hurt between level 7-12 when we start trivializing everything and ends up knee jerk reacting and modifying the adventure to have us face something that we can't escape and kills 1 or all of the party.

Keep in mind, my question is if there is a written statement about character creation, not how to keep the APs challenging.

Sovereign Court

The APs are designed for 4 players at 15 point buy. So as you increase the amount of players and point buy allocation the AP will get easier. As written you will need more adjustment to be challenging if you go beyond that baseline. Not sure where this is written but im sure somebody will be along to help us out here.

The Exchange

I don't know if it's stated anywhere officially other than FAQs (which I don't know how to navigate), but I do know if you add the point buy for the pre-generated iconics in the back of the earlier aps they do end up with 15.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's also worth mentioning that the APs are sort written for the "average" group of players that isn't optimizing. So the GM may need to adjust the challenge up if he/she has a really good group of players, highly experienced players, and/or players that like to optimize.

-Skeld

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The closest you'll get to a "written statement" is the core rulebook, which indicates that the "standard fantasy" point buy is 15 points. The APs are designed with that expectation—that, and 4 players using the medium XP track. The more you deviate from those norms, the more you'll need to adjust the encounters.


Also if your players are good with the rules and know the gameplay/system then you are going to need to made serious work, especially at high levels, don't be surprised if you have to rebuild nearly all the encounters in books 5 and/or 6. If you don't let them go crazy and/or tell them to tone it down, your job will be a lot easier and require a lot less adjustments/rebuilding.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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leo1925 wrote:
Also if your players are good with the rules and know the gameplay/system then you are going to need to made serious work, especially at high levels, don't be surprised if you have to rebuild nearly all the encounters in books 5 and/or 6. If you don't let them go crazy and/or tell them to tone it down, your job will be a lot easier and require a lot less adjustments/rebuilding.

Alternately, you can have your really good with the rules players use a 10 point buy for their characters. They're experienced gamers. They should be playing the game on "hard" mode anyway!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Also if your players are good with the rules and know the gameplay/system then you are going to need to made serious work, especially at high levels, don't be surprised if you have to rebuild nearly all the encounters in books 5 and/or 6. If you don't let them go crazy and/or tell them to tone it down, your job will be a lot easier and require a lot less adjustments/rebuilding.
Alternately, you can have your really good with the rules players use a 10 point buy for their characters. They're experienced gamers. They should be playing the game on "hard" mode anyway!

i'd give them 25 point buy, with the condition that they must fight everything with a Spoon, 20 points gets you a Fork:)

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Also if your players are good with the rules and know the gameplay/system then you are going to need to made serious work, especially at high levels, don't be surprised if you have to rebuild nearly all the encounters in books 5 and/or 6. If you don't let them go crazy and/or tell them to tone it down, your job will be a lot easier and require a lot less adjustments/rebuilding.
Alternately, you can have your really good with the rules players use a 10 point buy for their characters. They're experienced gamers. They should be playing the game on "hard" mode anyway!
i'd give them 25 point buy, with the condition that they must fight everything with a Spoon, 20 points gets you a Fork:)

Absolutely not.

Forks have been BROKEN since the Fork Master archetype was released.

-Skeld

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

How much point buy would you give someone who is soloing an AP? To make up for the loss of action economy and versatility? And for the sake of argument assuming no other significant means of compensation. Would 40 point buy be too much?

Sovereign Court

Samy wrote:
How much point buy would you give someone who is soloing an AP? To make up for the loss of action economy and versatility? And for the sake of argument assuming no other significant means of compensation. Would 40 point buy be too much?

I'd probably look for another solution like gestalt or letting the solo player run multiple characters.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Assuming no other significant means of compensation. Solely point buy.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Samy wrote:
Assuming no other significant means of compensation. Solely point buy.

102? And that probably wouldn't help - the problems with Soloing (action economy, non acting condfitions like stunning) can't be solved with stat bosting alone.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Yeah... for solo play, you'll need to do a lot more. You'll want to design encounters with fewer foes to keep the action economy a bit balanced, but you'll also want to rework all the effects that result in losing your turn. Things like stunning, paralyzation, sleep, and the like should either be reduced to 1 round durations or at the very least treated as hold person so that the PC can attempt a new save each round to throw the effect off.

Spoiler:
In fact, I often allow the hold person save each round to end the effect early for ALL immobilizing effects in the game, because it keeps the players involved. In the end, even if they make their first save to escape, they're still out of combat for 2 rounds, and that's still significant... especially when you consider that the player may have had to endure no actions for dozens of real-world minutes depending on the complexity of the fight.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
In fact, I often allow the hold person save each round to end the effect early for ALL immobilizing effects in the game, because it keeps the players involved. In the end, even if they make their first save to escape, they're still out of combat for 2 rounds, and that's still significant... especially when you consider that the player may have had to endure no actions for dozens of real-world minutes depending on the complexity of the fight.

I hear you, James. Now, if only you knew someone of importance at Paizo's, you could get this houserule taken up into the official rules.

Spoiler:
:-P

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, for example, 2500 point buy would still leave one underpowered for soloing an AP, with no other compensations? (That would mean a 50 (+20 modifier) in every stat.) Or 25000 point buy? (139 (+64 modifier) in every stat?) You really think that you couldn't solo an AP even with +64 modifier in Str, Dex and Con? That would mean a naked AC of 74, pretty much hitting 95% of the time and doing a minimum of 65 points of damage each hit.

You *really* think a person couldn't solo an unmodified AP even with those sorts of stats? Because I think they could. The only question is where the threshold of soloability goes between 40 and 25000 point buy.

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Also if your players are good with the rules and know the gameplay/system then you are going to need to made serious work, especially at high levels, don't be surprised if you have to rebuild nearly all the encounters in books 5 and/or 6. If you don't let them go crazy and/or tell them to tone it down, your job will be a lot easier and require a lot less adjustments/rebuilding.
Alternately, you can have your really good with the rules players use a 10 point buy for their characters. They're experienced gamers. They should be playing the game on "hard" mode anyway!

But, that would affect the feel of the game. If every lowly thug the characters encounter has a higher strength score than the party barbarian... how are the players supposed to buy in to the concept of the character as a muscle-bound savage?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If the issue is simply the players' perception, you could just not tell them what the lowly thug's strength score is. They'll never know.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Samy wrote:

So, for example, 2500 point buy would still leave one underpowered for soloing an AP, with no other compensations? (That would mean a 50 (+20 modifier) in every stat.) Or 25000 point buy? (139 (+64 modifier) in every stat?) You really think that you couldn't solo an AP even with +64 modifier in Str, Dex and Con? That would mean a naked AC of 74, pretty much hitting 95% of the time and doing a minimum of 65 points of damage each hit.

You *really* think a person couldn't solo an unmodified AP even with those sorts of stats? Because I think they could. The only question is where the threshold of soloability goes between 40 and 25000 point buy.

the problems aren't the stats its the Action Economy where as in a normal group you have four actions in one round, in a group of one you of course only get one. so your stats are insanely high, all that means is: higher AC, higher attack bonus, etc. so while nothing could hit you and you could smack everyone around where is the fun there? its like shooting at Deer while they snack at the feeder you installed months ago:)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You let me worry about the fun. All I'm asking is at which point buy does soloing an AP become *survivable*. Fun isn't relevant to my question, I'll take care of that in other ways.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

its all good:)
we roll personally, if i were to use a point buy, i'd go 35-40 and maybe have another cohort or other person/GMPC with them:)


Pan wrote:
as you increase the amount of players ... the AP will get easier. As written you will need more adjustment to be challenging if you go beyond that baseline.

I disagree with this statement actually. If you start with more than 4 players and *don't* adjust the AP, the extra division of XP will cause your party to eventually be about 1/2 a level per extra person behind where the AP assumes they will be. This will make things more challenging.

The type of challenge can be a bit different, since action economy is important, but so is other adjustments for more PCs.

As for point-buy, I think 60 (straight 16's) would give a solo PC a reasonable chance. Or an extremist to get 4 18's and 2 7's.

Liberty's Edge

Or, as I'm doing with for my player I am running Second Darkness solo for, mythic tiers and the occasional npc companion

Sovereign Court

Majuba wrote:
Pan wrote:
as you increase the amount of players ... the AP will get easier. As written you will need more adjustment to be challenging if you go beyond that baseline.

I disagree with this statement actually. If you start with more than 4 players and *don't* adjust the AP, the extra division of XP will cause your party to eventually be about 1/2 a level per extra person behind where the AP assumes they will be. This will make things more challenging.

The type of challenge can be a bit different, since action economy is important, but so is other adjustments for more PCs.

As for point-buy, I think 60 (straight 16's) would give a solo PC a reasonable chance. Or an extremist to get 4 18's and 2 7's.

Depends if you use XP or the advancment track. For 5 players at 20 point buy I keep the party behind a level starting at about level 6 and max out all HP on enemies and often double them. My players are probably slightly above average on the system mastery scale so im sure that factors in. Die hard optimizers would destroy the AP unmodifyied even with XP deficits at 5+ players.

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