The term "mageknight" or "midrange" might not be a bad term.
Every d8 half-caster basically acts as support classes or as casters who can get up on the front lines if needed.
One reason the Cleric and Druid were/are considered so powerful is because they are d8 full-casters; by all rights they, and the Oracle & Shaman, should be d6 full-casters like the Wizard and Sorcerer.
It would make more balanced sense for full-casters to be d6 builds (with 1/2 BAB, rather than 3/4), half-casters be d8s (as they already all are), and pseudo-casters like the Ranger, Paladin, and Bloodrager to be d10s.
But that's a problem dating way far as far back as 1st Edition (though they also only had up to 7th level spells in 1st & 2nd Ed). Over the years, the Cleric became more battle-focused, but retained a level of balance due to the fact that it progressed more slowly magically than the Wizard.
WOTC really wonked things up when they upped the spell levels of Clerics and Druids to 9th Level, and because PF is a legacy from 3.5, one of the more glaring issues was that Clerics and Druids were both great at fighting AND casting spells.
The Warpriest and Hunter are much more like the 1st and 2nd Ed Priest in basic architecture and overall power than the modern-day Cleric and Druid are.
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It should be noted that the sacred fist can easily pick up weapon focus while the regular warpriest has no way to gain something similar to the bonuses provided by flurry - Granted, it puts the regular warpriest a feat ahead, but I wouldn't really call it a major advantage.
I do find it funny when people seem to think unarmored combatants have less AC than armored ones...
When you add multiple stats to AC, you can VERY EASILY get a AC equivalent to Full Plate. A perfect example of this is the Kensai. He has both int and Dex to AC. With Dervish Dance, he can drop str in pump up dex and Int to their max. This can very easily push him up to +10 ac easy (+5 Dex/+5 Int) at a rather low level. On top of that, you have spells that can really ramp up your AC along with items. Oh! and all of this AC, since it is not typed as armor, stacks with armor bonuses you get from things like Mage Armor. As he levels this can actually become even more significant because, unlike many other classes, he can take full advantage of ALL of his Dex and Int to AC.
Additionally, with all the AC being touch AC, it makes him MUCH more protacted vs casters. The normal armoured guy might have better flat-footed AC but that generally tends to matter more vs rogue type opponents. And I don't know about you, but I would much prefer being protected vs casters than rogues...
Slashing grace. So no not really.I do find it funny when people seem to think unarmored combatants have less AC than armored ones...My unarmoured Inquisitor stood proud at an AC of 34, at level 5. I know it can be done, but a Sacred Fist maxing WIS and DEX for a high AC would have to sacrifice something else, like damage?
Slashing Grace means sacrificing three feats (weapon finesse, Slashing Grace, exotic weapon proficiency), or burning a feat (two if you want to flurry with your weapon) and taking a dip in swashbuckler. Neither are particularly attractive.
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If you're not strictly better than someone who can do the same thing every round of the entire day while expanding your limited resources and instead only EQUAL when using your limited resources why in the infinite hells would you play a character which is strictly worse the majority of the time.It's why smite is allowed to make the paladin so strong. It's limited and when he's using it he's at the tipy top of awesome. While raging the barbarian is better than the fighter while not raging he's WAY worse than the fighter the only imbalance is the distribution of resources some classes have (Rage may scale too hard/too fast vs the fighter as an example). If fervor and spells were removed from the WP (Or in this case you'd expanded them all) the class would be literally worse than a rogue. There's at that point no point in playing it. If you start out strictly worse there is no point in having the other class.
This would be true if there was value to being able to something all day. Sadly there is not. The only value is being able to do something *!when you need to do it!*. And I have never seen an 11th level caster run out of spells for when they need to do something. Ever. This makes them being stronger then the "go all day abilities" unbalanced, because they will always be stronger *when it counts*. And that's the correct measure of balance to use. The 20 some rounds (6 encounters easy) a day you need to something. Not the 14,380+ you don't.
Drops mic.
We play different games. Our level 12 mythic arcanist ran out of useful spells last game and we had to stop for a brief break to recuperate.
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Agile Amulet of Mighty fists or Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists...
Pretty common items for monks...
Guided is not pathfinder, and Agile still makes Dexterity your primary stat, not wisdom. Or if it is, your sacrificing offense.
I actually disagree about the 1 level dip. Parry is a VERY strong defensive mechanic and weapon focus is a statistically strong feat. It makes for a more defensive variant of SF but it's by no means weak. I'd even say it's probably STILL stronger than the base WP by a lot. The overwhelming majority of the WP power comes from fervor and attaching fervor to a better chassis makes the character better.
Note that I didn't list WF as a burnt feat, I agree that it pulls its own weight - I was only listing the feats needed to make dexterity combat with a single weapon viable - weapon finesse, slashing grace, and EWP.
Slashing Grace means he can't use unarmed strikes, so he won't get the improved damage. The only one-handed slashing weapons with the monk quality that I could find are the nine-ring broadsword (20 x3), the double chicken saber (19-20 x2), and the temple sword (19-20 x2). The sacred fist/swashbuckler does not gain proficiency with any of them so he has to burn a feat to gain proficiency, and the low threat range means he'll have a harder time regaining panache points.
Parry is situationally very good indeed, but it eats through panache points (which you do not have) and it burns your swift actions, which means less actions available for Fervor or Blessings.
Truth be told, Agile is still the best option for anyone who wants to rely on dexterity. A dip in swashbuckler and Slashing Grace will let you limp to ~level 5 where your WBL is finally high enough, then you pick up an agile weapon/amulet and retrain both the swashbuckler level and all the unnecessary feats (EWP, Slashing Grace) away ASAP.
Guided is not pathfinder, and Agile still makes Dexterity your primary stat, not wisdom. Or if it is, your sacrificing offense.
Yes but the main concern is if you pump up wisdom AND dex you will lose out on damage from having a lower str. An Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile enchantment is the easiest way to fix the damage issue and they are not hard to come by since they are kind of standard issue items for monks as a whole (who tend to lose out a bit with MADness). The only thing you need then is Weapon Finesse (which is pretty much and accepted tax by those who love the ways of dexerity)
Guided is not pathfinder, and Agile still makes Dexterity your primary stat, not wisdom. Or if it is, your sacrificing offense.Yes but the main concern is if you pump up wisdom AND dex you will lose out on damage from having a lower str. An Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile enchantment is the easiest way to fix the damage issue and they are not hard to come by since they are kind of standard issue items for monks as a whole (who tend to lose out a bit with MADness). The only thing you need then is Weapon Finesse (which is pretty much and accepted tax by those who love the ways of dexerity)
Won't get any argument from me there. I've always preferred dex to damage for monks, or at least since Agile came out. I'd take the damage hit any day.
We play different games. Our level 12 mythic arcanist ran out of useful spells last game and we had to stop for a brief break to recuperate.
No, we play the same game. Your Arcanist must have been blowing spells on random stuff cause really you should only need 1-2 per encounter. Even if you have 8 encounters, and even if you need 2 spells per encounter, they should still have tons of spells per day left.
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Take the mythic out of your arcanist and you'd be singing a different tune. Mythic is far enough off the beam, that it should not be invoked in discussing a base classe's rules.We play different games. Our level 12 mythic arcanist ran out of useful spells last game and we had to stop for a brief break to recuperate.
If you're not strictly better than someone who can do the same thing every round of the entire day while expanding your limited resources and instead only EQUAL when using your limited resources why in the infinite hells would you play a character which is strictly worse the majority of the time.It's why smite is allowed to make the paladin so strong. It's limited and when he's using it he's at the tipy top of awesome. While raging the barbarian is better than the fighter while not raging he's WAY worse than the fighter the only imbalance is the distribution of resources some classes have (Rage may scale too hard/too fast vs the fighter as an example). If fervor and spells were removed from the WP (Or in this case you'd expanded them all) the class would be literally worse than a rogue. There's at that point no point in playing it. If you start out strictly worse there is no point in having the other class.
This would be true if there was value to being able to something all day. Sadly there is not. The only value is being able to do something *!when you need to do it!*. And I have never seen an 11th level caster run out of spells for when they need to do something. Ever. This makes them being stronger then the "go all day abilities" unbalanced, because they will always be stronger *when it counts*. And that's the correct measure of balance to use. The 20 some rounds (6 encounters easy) a day you need to something. Not the 14,380+ you don't.
Drops mic.
Are you implying that a non-mythic arcanist would somehow last longer before running out of spells? I doubt it.
No, we play the same game. Your Arcanist must have been blowing spells on random stuff cause really you should only need 1-2 per encounter. Even if you have 8 encounters, and even if you need 2 spells per encounter, they should still have tons of spells per day left.
We play different games. Our level 12 mythic arcanist ran out of useful spells last game and we had to stop for a brief break to recuperate.
We had one encounter that day. It was with an army encampment. The arcanist player played his character appropriately, if not in a tactically optimal fashion. Some of the arcanist's spells were spent attempting (and failing) to use subterfuge to sneak in and dominate the army leader. Some of the rest were spent escaping. And some of them were spent reacquiring his lost things. All of this took place in what amounted to one really long encounter involving stealth, dialogue, explosions, some necromancy, and a whole lot of insanity.
...Are you implying that a non-mythic arcanist would somehow last longer beforeTake the mythic out of your arcanist and you'd be singing a different tune. Mythic is far enough off the beam, that it should not be invoked in discussing a base classe's rules.We play different games. Our level 12 mythic arcanist ran out of useful spells last game and we had to stop for a brief break to recuperate.
If you're not strictly better than someone who can do the same thing every round of the entire day while expanding your limited resources and instead only EQUAL when using your limited resources why in the infinite hells would you play a character which is strictly worse the majority of the time.It's why smite is allowed to make the paladin so strong. It's limited and when he's using it he's at the tipy top of awesome. While raging the barbarian is better than the fighter while not raging he's WAY worse than the fighter the only imbalance is the distribution of resources some classes have (Rage may scale too hard/too fast vs the fighter as an example). If fervor and spells were removed from the WP (Or in this case you'd expanded them all) the class would be literally worse than a rogue. There's at that point no point in playing it. If you start out strictly worse there is no point in having the other class.
This would be true if there was value to being able to something all day. Sadly there is not. The only value is being able to do something *!when you need to do it!*. And I have never seen an 11th level caster run out of spells for when they need to do something. Ever. This makes them being stronger then the "go all day abilities" unbalanced, because they will always be stronger *when it counts*. And that's the correct measure of balance to use. The 20 some rounds (6 encounters easy) a day you need to something. Not the 14,380+ you don't.
Drops mic.
I think we're agreeing, then. It is not impossible to run out of useful spells, even at mid-high levels.
You expect me to believe that over one encounter, the Arcanist blew through 15 4th-6th level spells and 18 1st-3rd level spells and managed to accomplish nothing. That's a player issue. Especially if he was mythic and could have recharged for double those numbers. If that's the case, the problem is not the class, it's the player.
^^^ This....
A well played caster of any sort really does not need to waste very many spells...
Heck, my BFC Oracle of the Dark Tapestry tends to lock down encounters with 2 spells...
Oh I gladly burn 10 low level in buffing, but even then going through 15 4th-6th level spells even over 10 encounters is just mind-blowingly poor resource management. It becomes especially egregious if he could have recharged to have yet another 15 4-6th level spells. Especially, the escape thing. Just use Teleport? It costs 1 5th level spell per day. If you really used all your spells and had to escape... why not save a 5th for Teleport? Lord knows it's always prepared at least once from level 9 onwards on all my Wizards.
While is slighly off-topic, it does help cover the difference between a Full BAB/4th level partial caster v. a 3/4th BAB/6th level partial caster, since one is going to be relying on their consumable resources more (although Paladin has plenty of those to).
And besides, this is a horridly contrived scenerio to try and FORCE value on an "all day class" when the game is not made with these base assumptions....
6 encounters a day (not including things like traps) is considered quite a bit... let alone 10+
Honestly, try as I might, I cannot make a Sacred Fist deal more damage than a basic Warpriest.
Here's the build I used for the Warpriest
Race - Human - Weapon Finesse
CL1 - Wrp1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
CL2 - Wrp2
CL3 - Wrp3 - Dual Enhancement, Double Slice
CL4 - Wrp4
CL5 - Wrp5 - ???
CL6 - Wrp6 - Weapon Specialization (Kukri), ???
CL7 - Wrp7 - ???
CL8 - Wrp8
CL9 - Wrp9 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL10 - Wrp10
CL11 - Wrp11 - ???
CL12 - Wrp12 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Kukri), ???
Full Attack = +12(1d10+7 | 15-20/x2) / +12(1d10+7 | 15-20/x2) / +7(1d10+6 | 15-20/x2) / +7(1d10+6 | 15-20/x2)
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The Sacred Fist DOES gain an additional attack at +0, and one grade higher dice of damage, but the Warpriest, through the Weapon Specialization feats, automatically scores a +4 to damage, which is further increased to +7 at the cost of 1 use of Sacred Weapon via the Dual Enhancement feat; I've been unable to make the Sacred Fist actually deal damage as consistently as the Warpriest because the Sacred Weapon sacrifice and its inability to gain Specialization Feats because those can only be gained as Bonus Feats (which are sacrificed).
In fact, the Warpriest can take Power Attack, be as accurate as the base Sacred Fist (5% less accurate per attack than an SF that takes Weapon Focus), have 1 open Feat slot more than the SF, AND deal 1d10+11! damage each attack.
And while, yes, the Sacred Fist can burn Ki every turn to gain an extra attack, the Warpriest can burn a Haste spell that will last several round and do the same, so they're at a bit of a stalemate there (I will concede, however, that burning a spell is not as optimal as burning Ki, even if Haste is a worthwhile spell to have swift-cast on yourself)
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This is the best I could come up with, to match damage-for-damage, but it doesn't deal damage as consistently:
Race - Human - Weapon Finesse
CL1 - Wrp1 - Double Slice, Improved Unamed Strike
CL2 - Wrp2
CL3 - Wrp3 - Martial Weapon Proficiency (Kukri)
CL4 - Wrp4
CL5 - Wrp5 - Weapon Focus (Kukri)
CL6 - Wrp6 - Pummeling Strike, Crusader's Flurry (Kukri)
CL7 - Wrp7 - ???
CL8 - Wrp8
CL9 - Wrp9 - ???
CL10 - Wrp10
CL11 - Wrp11 - Improved Critical (Kukri)
CL12 - Wrp12 - Pummeling Charge, ???
Flurry/Pummeling Strike with Kukri = +11(2d6 | 15-20/x2) / +11(2d6 | 15-20/x2) / +6(2d6 | 15-20/x2) / +6(2d6 | 15-20/x2) / +1(2d6 | 15-20/x2)
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At the end of it all, I have 3 Feat slots open for Sacred Fist; meanwhile, I have 5 open for the Warpriest.
All I can come up with is that the Warpriest is more consistent damage-wise, while the Sacred Fist may have it beaten out in the AC department (I didn't calculate that out, but +Dex, +Wis, +3 seems stronger than simply +Armor, +Dex, +2); the SF would win out for Gear Selection, however - which is important for PFS - since it would require only 1 +1 Agile Kukri (since Flurry can be done with a single weapon), while the Warpriest would need 2. However, for home games this seems far-less important, and the gaining of 2 more feats seems more than recompense for having to buy 2 Agile Kukris, frankly.
I'd like to see if someone can optimize a Sacred Fist to do more damage as or more consistently than the Warpriest, since I'm really out of ideas; I'm going on the assumption that both the SF and WP have identical stats, and both only need Dex and Wisdom (as the builds here do - I assumed they each had Kukris with Agile after a certain level, but didn't bother calculating in the +1 bonus to either, since it seemed a moot point)
Oh I gladly burn 10 low level in buffing, but even then going through 15 4th-6th level spells even over 10 encounters is just mind-blowingly poor resource management. It becomes especially egregious if he could have recharged to have yet another 15 4-6th level spells. Especially, the escape thing. Just use Teleport? It costs 1 5th level spell per day. If you really used all your spells and had to escape... why not save a 5th for Teleport? Lord knows it's always prepared at least once from level 9 onwards on all my Wizards.
While is slighly off-topic, it does help cover the difference between a Full BAB/4th level partial caster v. a 3/4th BAB/6th level partial caster, since one is going to be relying on their consumable resources more (although Paladin has plenty of those to).
I have to agree. Admittedly I am not very familiar with Mythic, but by that stage in the game 2 spells an encounter is a lot and I may get more than one encounter out of the way. I've destroyed 2 encounters with an aqueous orb and create pit spell before(at level 9 or 10, not at 5th), even though the encounters were in 2 different rooms. And casters tend to excel at shutting down large groups anyway, one spell can often end an encounter, and the fact that he KNEW he was dealing with a large armed camp means he really did a poor job IMO.
Always save a teleport!
I tend to run 8-13 encounters in the day, and I think the system can easily handle that, especially at mid-high levels, so I see nothing wrong with the design, just using resources.
I played through a rather long PFS module (of sorts) where you go through somewhere between 8 and 10 encounters. I was a level 13 arcane trickster (so wizard 10) and I still ended with about 15% of my spell resources. Granted, it was getting slim pickings, but I still had a few tricks (and I won the scenario for us with a spell I had left).
Granted, Mythic COULD be totally different, I don't know enough about it, but if its that much different, then it can't really be used as the baseline of rules discussion.
@chbgraphicarts:
Sacred Fist
Race human - ?
SF1 - ?, improved unarmed strike
SF2 -
SF3 - weapon focus (unarmed)
SF4 -
SF5 - tiger style
SF6 - weapon specialization (unarmed), tiger claws
SF7 - power attack
SF8 -
SF9 - ?
SF10 -
SF11 - ?
SF12 - tiger pounce
+11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (2d8+10)
Sacred fist assumes a monk's robe (your warpriest apparently assumes two +1 keen agile kukris). The warpriest can deal his stated damage for 12 rounds a day. The sacred fist does more damage all the time and has a pounce-like ability.
The sacred fist can adept the above build for Dex-based damage to supplement his AC (which takes the Power Attack penalty due to Tiger Pounce). Also the sacred fist can spend ki to increase either his AC (to counteract Power Attack penalty) or add another attack.
Both the warpriest and the sacred fist can take Slashing Grace to avoid the need for the agile enchantment (Tiger Style grants slashing damage to unarmed strikes).
Edit: even accounting for crits, the sacred fist build deals about 20% more damage on average all the time than the warpriest does when peaking with sacred fist.
sacred fist cannot select weapon spec. just nitpicking.
+11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (2d8+10)
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Sacred fist assumes a monk's robe (your warpriest apparently assumes two +1 keen agile kukris).
...
(Tiger Style grants slashing damage to unarmed strikes).
I'm not actually sure how the Bonus Feats from a Human work with the Sacred Fist archetype, but let's just go with what you have right now, since that doesn't seem too gnarly.
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I'm missing where you're getting 2d8 damage from; your damage is 2d6 at lv12.
All the Monk's Robe gives you is a +1 AC, since you don't actually have Monk levels or count as a Monk ever (except for when choosing Bonus Style Feats). The Monk's Robe would give you the damage dice of a lv5 Monk, which your SF damage dice would override since your own damage dice are greater.
And the general consensus and RAW reading of the feats is that Tiger Style doesn't allow you to use Slashing Grace with an unarmed strike, due mainly to the fact that your Unarmed strikes count as Light Weapons, not One-Handed, and Tiger Style only lets you deal Slashing damage with your Unarmed Strikes - it doesn't actually give Unarmed Strikes the "Slashing" quality.
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Taking all this into account, you have 5 attacks which deal 2d6+10 (though in your build, with a far less-likely crit range) with one made at a +1, vs 4 attacks with 95% the accuracy of the SF's and which deal 1d10+10.5 (assuming Power Attack, and with a crit chance of 30% per attack); both the Warpriest and Sacred Fist require Agile in order to deal damage based on Dex, and the Warpriest, after taking the WF on both into account, will still have 5 feat slots over 3 from the SF (4 vs 3 if the WP takes Power Attack)
However, it does look like the SF MAY deal marginally more damage than the Warpriest, though not nearly as much as people are making it out to be (if the "Sacred Fists can't take Weapon Focus" issue proves to be true, the Warpriest does actually deal more). It seems to be that the Warpriest may trade that small amount of damage for a more-versatile build.
sacred fist cannot select weapon spec. just nitpicking.
I would normally agree with you EXCEPT that it seems he's using the Human Racial Ability there.
I kinda feel like the Archetype's ability would trump the Race's and force him to take a Style Feat, but I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say "okay, that works" since there hasn't been a ruling one way or the other yet, and this is a thought-experiment on the maximum damage legally possible (the Monk's Robe doesn't work, 'cause the Sacred Fist doesn't actually grant levels in Monk).
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However, it does look like the SF deals marginally more damage than the Warpriest, though not nearly as much as people are making it out to be. It seems to be that the Warpriest may trade that small amount of damage for a more-versatile build....
Keep in mind that the Sacred Weapon ability of the Warpriest to add an enhancement bonus to his weapons only is available for 12 rounds. That really isn't that much. It is generally present in clutch situations (assuming frugal use of the ability), but you cannot consider it the "standard" damage output for the warpriest.
Going from +12 (2d6+7) to +9 (2d6+4) is a fairly huge drop; it represents roughly a 35% drop in average damage.
...
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.
And the general consensus and RAW reading of the feats is that Tiger Style doesn't allow you to use Slashing Grace with an unarmed strike, due mainly to the fact that your Unarmed strikes count as Light Weapons, not One-Handed, and Tiger Style only lets you deal Slashing damage with your Unarmed Strikes - it doesn't actually give Unarmed Strikes the "Slashing" quality.
The same goes for the warpriest using two kukris, neither qualify for Slashing Grace. It should be noted that Sacred Fist loses Sacred Weapon, so his weapon die does not scale with damage. He would be rolling a 1d4 on the kukri, not 2d6.
He's better off using an Agile amulet of mighty fists. I'd probably skip Tiger Style for Pummeling Style and Horn of the Criosphinx.
I'm missing where you're getting 2d8 damage from; your damage is 2d6 at lv12.
All the Monk's Robe gives you is a +1 AC, since you don't actually have Monk levels or count as a Monk ever (except for when choosing Bonus Style Feats). The Monk's Robe would give you the damage dice of a lv5 Monk, which your SF damage dice would override since your own damage dice are greater.
I'd personally rule that the monk's robe stacks with the sacred fist's level for unarmed damage because of the unarmed damage phrasing: "He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike."
That's coming from a RAI standpoint rather than a RAW point though, so your mileage may and probably will vary there.
The same goes for the warpriest using two kukris, neither qualify for Slashing Grace. It should be noted that Sacred Fist loses Sacred Weapon, so his weapon die does not scale with damage. He would be rolling a 1d4 on the kukri, not 2d6.
While I knew from the get-go that the Kukri didn't count for Slashing Grace, I completely missed that he hadn't taken Crusader's Flurry to gain the use of a Kukri in a Flurry. Or that he hadn't taken the tree to gain access to the Kukri at all, really.
That means all those attacks and even the Pounce only have a 5% chance of hitting a Critical, vs. a Warpriest with Kukris who has a 30% chance every attack.
I'd personally rule that the monk's robe stacks with the sacred fist's level for unarmed damage because of the unarmed damage phrasing: "He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike."
That's coming from a RAI standpoint rather than a RAW point though, so your mileage may and probably will vary there.
You can definitely make the argument for RAI, but I would also point you to the Brawler class. The Brawler actually DOES count as having levels in Monk in order to determine the effects of Magic Items - it says as much right in its Martial Training description. There is no such clarification for the Sacred Fist, so you can go on the assumption that it doesn't actually count as a Monk (and, again, RAW it doesn't).
sacred fist cannot select weapon spec. just nitpicking.
It can but only at lvl 15 ;p
Keep in mind that the Sacred Weapon ability of the Warpriest to add an enhancement bonus to his weapons only is available for 12 rounds. That really isn't that much. It is generally present in clutch situations (assuming frugal use of the ability), but you cannot consider it the "standard" damage output for the warpriest.
True, but a Barbarian can only Rage 26+Con rounds a day, as well.
Admittedly, I would like to see the Sacred Weapon time increase somehow (possibly through a Feat or other Magic Item), but that's usually more than enough time to get you through a normal day.
The same goes for the warpriest using two kukris, neither qualify for Slashing Grace. It should be noted that Sacred Fist loses Sacred Weapon, so his weapon die does not scale with damage. He would be rolling a 1d4 on the kukri, not 2d6.While I knew from the get-go that the Kukri didn't count for Slashing Grace, I completely missed that he hadn't taken Crusader's Flurry to gain the use of a Kukri in a Flurry. Or that he hadn't taken the tree to gain access to the Kukri at all, really.
Even with Crusader's Flurry his kukri would still deal 1d4 - monk's scaling damage does not extend to weapons, only unarmed strikes.
That said, I'd argue that pummeling strike and improved critical (unarmed) is roughly as good as kukri's 15-20 threat range. Pummeling Charge also gives the sacred fist "pounce" at level 12, which gives him a massive mobility advantage over the Warpriest.
You can definitely make the argument for RAI, but I would also point you to the Brawler class. The Brawler actually DOES count as having levels in Monk in order to determine the effects of Magic Items - it says as much right in its Martial Training description. There is no such clarification for the Sacred Fist, so you can go on the assumption that it doesn't actually count as a Monk (and, again, RAW it doesn't).
Right, but if we're sticking to the strictly RAW perspective then the sacred fist can flurry in full plate. Something I strongly suspect was not intended, but is entirely RAW-legal.
It'd be interesting to make full builds rather than debating skeletons though. Does anyone feel comfortable putting together a warpriest and/or a sacred fist build so we can run it through a DPR calculator? Level 12, normal WBL but no crafting, 20 pb, dipping allowed?
You can definitely make the argument for RAI, but I would also point you to the Brawler class. The Brawler actually DOES count as having levels in Monk in order to determine the effects of Magic Items - it says as much right in its Martial Training description. There is no such clarification for the Sacred Fist, so you can go on the assumption that it doesn't actually count as a Monk (and, again, RAW it doesn't).
The different classes (and archetypes) had different developers working on them - even though we like to think that all rules are presented on a level playing field, that is not actually the case. When one class explicitly points out something, it cannot be taken as a given that for a class that doesn't point out the same thing, that it doesn't apply.
I'd probably skip Tiger Style for Pummeling Style
I think Pummeling Style is "the new hotness", but if you don't build for crit-fishing and DR isn't the biggest problem, then I think Tiger Style is better. At level 12, getting +8 to damage is pretty massive. Tiger Pounce is situationally better/worse than Pummeling Charge - specifically it is not limited to charging, meaning there are plenty situations where you can still get off your flurry where Pummeling Style cannot.
As a side note: Tiger Claw is even a form of "mini" Pummeling Style in that it lets you use 2 attacks (essentially your two best attacks), add the results together (and even add extra damage with Power Attack), crit collectively (as Pummeling Style).
I think Pummeling Style is "the new hotness", but if you don't build for crit-fishing and DR isn't the biggest problem, then I think Tiger Style is better. At level 12, getting +8 to damage is pretty massive. Tiger Pounce is situationally better/worse than Pummeling Charge - specifically it is not limited to charging, meaning there are plenty situations where you can still get off your flurry where Pummeling Style cannot.
As a side note: Tiger Claw is even a form of "mini" Pummeling Style in that it lets you use 2 attacks (essentially your two best attacks), add the results together (and even add extra damage with Power Attack), crit collectively (as Pummeling Style).
I'm generally not a fan of bleed damage since I want targets dead ASAP - not two rounds from now.
The main reason I like Pummeling Style is that it makes unarmed crits a viable option (if you make 7 attacks, odds are pretty good you'll roll a 19 or 20), it works as clustered shots vs DR (often a problem with the "many small hits" tactic) and the mini-pounce. The (amazing) synergy with Criososphinx is really just a cherry on a delicious sundae. Assuming a str of 26 and 7 attacks at level 12, Horn alone adds up to 28 damage.
I think Pummeling Style is "the new hotness", but if you don't build for crit-fishing and DR isn't the biggest problem, then I think Tiger Style is better. At level 12, getting +8 to damage is pretty massive. Tiger Pounce is situationally better/worse than Pummeling Charge - specifically it is not limited to charging, meaning there are plenty situations where you can still get off your flurry where Pummeling Style cannot.
As a side note: Tiger Claw is even a form of "mini" Pummeling Style in that it lets you use 2 attacks (essentially your two best attacks), add the results together (and even add extra damage with Power Attack), crit collectively (as Pummeling Style).
I'm generally not a fan of bleed damage since I want targets dead ASAP - not two rounds from now.
The main reason I like Pummeling Style is that it makes unarmed crits a viable option (if you make 7 attacks, odds are pretty good you'll roll a 19 or 20), it works as clustered shots vs DR (often a problem with the "many small hits" tactic) and the mini-pounce. The (amazing) synergy with Criososphinx is really just a cherry on a delicious sundae. Assuming a str of 26 and 7 attacks at level 12, Horn alone adds up to 28 damage.
Oh, yea, there's bleed damage too. I don't think that is the reason I like Tiger Style; it's all about the 3rd feat in the chain. No attack penalty on Power Attack and the ability to move half-speed as a swift action. That is a big deal.
The Criosphinx interaction is indeed very neat (though down-the-line I'd be worried about a clarification of it only applying to your first attack in the case of a pounce-based charge). But the problem with charges is that they are... well... charges. There are plenty of times where charging isn't an option, and even when it does apply, it applies in the first round, subsequent rounds are "normal" full-attacks.