wasteland 2


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WASTELAND 2 is out tomorrow. Not sure if I'll get it straight away, or hold fire for a while.


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Anyone poking around at this one yet? My work schedule and overtime have me needing to wait, but i am dying to know thoughts/impressions/etc.


Wasteland 2 review from RPS.

Many more starting to come in as well.

A very rough consensus is that it's good, but not quite as good as the "real" FALLOUT 3 you may have had in your mind since 1997. Which is understandable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yay good things on my read of that. Looking forwards to it more. C'mon, days off!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I was a Kickstarter patron, so will be getting a copy soon. Give it my thoughts when I get a chance.


Werthead wrote:
A very rough consensus is that it's good, but not quite as good as the "real" FALLOUT 3 you may have had in your mind since 1997. Which is understandable.

It's probably better than the Fallout 3 in my head, because that's based on the horrible interface of Fallout 1 and 2. :p

Sovereign Court

It's better than the real Fallout 3 anyway.


I have but ~240 hours doing public beta testing, so I've played a bit :) However, I look forward to seeing the 2nd half of the game.


Hama wrote:

It's better than the real Fallout 3 anyway.

Wow, it must be amazing then.

I hope it doesn't get placed on the list of controlled substances due to people being unable to stop playing it until they collapse in exhaustion.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

will get to play it tomorrow. wee!

Sovereign Court

Scythia wrote:
Hama wrote:

It's better than the real Fallout 3 anyway.

Wow, it must be amazing then.

I hope it doesn't get placed on the list of controlled substances due to people being unable to stop playing it until they collapse in exhaustion.

Fallout 3 wasn't that good anyway. It pretty much removed all the mechanics I liked from Fallout 2 and even worse, made it first or third person.

Wasteland 2 is hard. Very hard. I love it. I actually have to save the game frequently.

Dark Archive

Hama wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Hama wrote:

It's better than the real Fallout 3 anyway.

Wow, it must be amazing then.

I hope it doesn't get placed on the list of controlled substances due to people being unable to stop playing it until they collapse in exhaustion.

Fallout 3 wasn't that good anyway. It pretty much removed all the mechanics I liked from Fallout 2 and even worse, made it first or third person.

Wasteland 2 is hard. Very hard. I love it. I actually have to save the game frequently.

I love fallout 3 (and 1 and 2) and the original Wasteland. Being a die hard Gamma World fan (which these are all based off of, and GW being based off of other sci-fi works) I don't think there is a "good" or "bad" one, short of a game that doesn't work. I love first person shooters and rpgs, long as they are PA based games.

I will buy the digital deluxe version and play the hell out of it along with my heavily modded version of Fallout 3 I have installed on my PC.


WASTELAND 2 is very hard and pretty old-skool, although I think it's been massively overstated by some reviews. It is neither as hard nor as old-skool in its inscrutability as DIVINITY: ORIGINAL SIN, and is more approachable. It suffers from over-finicky skill replication (making Safecracking and Lockpicking different skills is one specialisation too far, especially since Computer Science is such a massive church it covers probably way too many circumstances) and also is extremely stingy with ammo and money, making simply staying alive hard work. That's good in the sense that it means you think more about survival in the post-apocalyptic nightmare than you do in FO3 (which is a theme park in comparsion), but it's bad when you have to constantly trek back to the Citadel or Highpool for supplies.

This is also a dangerous strategy because most of the mayday signals you encounter are time-limited. If you are tardy in dealing with a mayday you may lose the opportunity to counter the threat and turn up to find everyone dead. Realistic in the sense there are consequences for your action and inaction, but frustrating because the Rangers don't seem to have anyone else to send (shades of STAR TREK's "Only Federation ship in the quadrant," syndrome).

I do kind of like these games which seem to encourage failure so you learn the game's systems and then can restart with more information (like D:OS, FTL and X-COM for that matter), but there is an issue when they are multi-dozen-hour RPGs and I have a full-time job, almost 60 unplayed games on my Steam queue and two enormous new games (ELITE: DANGEROUS and PILLARS OF ETERNITY) just weeks away :)


Loving it so far, but encountering some characteristics that make the game less enjoyable. Many that Werthead mentioned above are sticking points for me as well - the massive disparity in utility between combat-oriented skills (Assault Rifle and Field Medic) versus non-combat skills (Alarm Disabling and Toaster Repair) without a similar disparity in cost is a big one, as is the unforgivable design choice to make safecracking and lockpicking two different skills (to say nothing of the massive overlap between Brute Force and Lockpicking that makes you feel like a chump for investing points in both, especially since the very first companion you pick up has a number of ranks in Brute Force). I like the supply scarcity, though I'm only playing on Seasoned so it might become unbearable at higher difficulty levels.

I feel like this is the sort of game that really needs a new player guide to avoid getting stuck in some of the game's pitfalls.


So I'm wondering how much combat initiative is enough. My guys all have between 12 and 14 initiative (and it took some hard choices to get it that high), and they never get to act first. A usual fight goes something like:

1) I set up at maximum range from the enemy, spreading out my team as much as possible. In cover if available.
2) My sniper takes a shot. Usually kills the target.
3) Every enemy on the map runs into melee.
4) My guys get to act.
5) *sigh*

Also, maybe I missed it but is there any way to, like, prepare your guys for combat? It's impossible to set up an ambush or anything when you can't prepare and always lose initiative. It's like everyone in the group gets super surprised when my sniper takes that first shot. They should know her better than that by now!


My friend complained terribly on dialogues, plot, and NPC personalities...

Any comments?

Sovereign Court

There is a lot of dialogues. Plot is simple, but fun. And when I say a lot of dialogues I mean Torment level of text.


Hama wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Hama wrote:

It's better than the real Fallout 3 anyway.

Wow, it must be amazing then.

I hope it doesn't get placed on the list of controlled substances due to people being unable to stop playing it until they collapse in exhaustion.

Fallout 3 wasn't that good anyway. It pretty much removed all the mechanics I liked from Fallout 2 and even worse, made it first or third person.

Wasteland 2 is hard. Very hard. I love it. I actually have to save the game frequently.

Fallout 3 is one of only 3 Xbox 360 games that I played longer than 200 hours. (The other two are New Vegas, and Skyrim). I think it's pretty good. :P

Sovereign Court

Have you played the original and 2?


Quote:
My friend complained terribly on dialogues, plot, and NPC personalities...

The writing and dialogue are okay, with occasional inspired spikes of genius. But in terms of plot/combat ratio, WASTELAND 2 reminds me of ICEWIND DALE more than the original FALLOUTs or other isometric RPGs. Combat is frequent, increases in difficulty continuously and not as well-designed as might be wished, although it's certainly not impossible or unenjoyable.


Hama wrote:
Have you played the original and 2?

We don't judge video games solely on how they measure up against earlier titles in the franchise.


Scott Betts wrote:
We don't judge video games solely on how they measure up against earlier titles in the franchise.

We don't judge how others judge their entertainment.

Sovereign Court

No, no we don't. And honestly, I found 3 bland and uninteresting with a lackluster story.
The environs were beautiful, as Bethesda environs always are, but that was pretty much it.
Oh yeah, Galaxy News Radio and Three Dog were awesome. Especially the tunes he played.
Everything else...meh.

Vegas was an enormous improvement with a great story.

Still wouldn't hold a candle to 2.


Fallout 3 is the weak game in the fallout series. That being said I thought it was ok, but I also modded the crap out of it after my first vanilla play through. I modded Vegas some, but much less so to enjoy the game.

Fallout New Vegas was developed by a lot of the same guys who worked on the originals, and they brought in a lot of elements from the cancelled FO3, like the legion, burned man and many references characters make to never explored areas. Thats probably why it was better to those of us who have been in the series a while, it felt more like fallout. Oddly, nearly everyone I know who started with FO3 prefers FO3 to FONV, and nearly everyone who played the original games prefers FONV to FO3.

I actually ran the "original" fallout 3 in pen and paper. They released the design documents for it several years back. It was pretty amazing and we completed the actual storyline, so that was awesome. If you want to check it out I have it here.

I need to check out wasteland 2. I was just talking to a buddy starting another playthrough of FO 2 so was getting nostalgic.


Reached the prison in Wasteland 2. It's pretty hardcore. I sneaked in the side way and got the drop on the enemies, but they attack in such large numbers it's impossible to take them down before they overwhelm me (the grenade-slingers in particular are lethal).

I might have to reload and do some more stuff outside the prison. Unlike some of the other quests, the prison isn't a time-limited one (it's a story-critical, set-in-stone one, I believe) so I can bail and come back later.


My trick at the prison was a generous application of hand grenades. I'd been saving the little darlings, but clusters of three-four enemies was just too good to pass up. Helped immensely.

It still bothers me that you can't do ambushes so I'm pretty much reduced to doing the fighting retreat trick... which isn't always possible.

Particular the first open area at the Prison sucked, with no cover and nowhere to move. (Ironically, this part might actually have been easier if I hadn't sneaked in the back door.)


I realised my problem at the Prison was that I'd gone there too early. I'd gone south to deal with Highpool and the AG Centre, and it seemed more sensible to visit the Prison whilst I was down there. I only visited the Ranger Citadel and sorted out the Rail Nomad dispute after doing everything I could in the Prison Valley apart from getting inside the prison itself. So yeah, I made my life difficult there for no real reason. Still, by the time I reached the Rail Nomad area I was tough enough to blitz through it easily enough. It's the roleplaying to get the best outcome in that storyline that is the tricky part but I just about managed to pull it off.


Hama wrote:

No, no we don't. And honestly, I found 3 bland and uninteresting with a lackluster story.

The environs were beautiful, as Bethesda environs always are, but that was pretty much it.
Oh yeah, Galaxy News Radio and Three Dog were awesome. Especially the tunes he played.
Everything else...meh.

Vegas was an enormous improvement with a great story.

Still wouldn't hold a candle to 2.

I think we enjoy different things. I preferred the story in 3 to that of New Vegas. I also wanted to shoot Three Dog after about the third hour. (I try to avoid attacking quest givers though). Didn't care much for the radio songs at all. Butcher Pete was amusing the first time, granted. Got old by the fifth.

The only things I liked better about New Vegas: the equipment variety, durability handling, & DT, and companions being unkillable unless in hardcore. Old World Blues was great too. Otherwise I found New Vegas to have a much more empty and lifeless feel, and found the story completely uninteresting. The attempt to force you to travel asking a predetermined path from the beginning runs counter to what I enjoy most about Fallout (exploration and choices). Despite hundreds of gameplay hours, I've never finished the main story once, I just can't seem to care about the factions fighting for the dam.


Mods help a lot with the music problem. Make your own soundtrack!


Ah! The Prison frustrates me so much, but I don't want to spoiler it for people who haven't played.

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Re Fallout: New Vegas

Spoiler:

Scythia wrote:
The attempt to force you to travel asking a predetermined path from the beginning runs counter to what I enjoy most about Fallout (exploration and choices).

If the devs had really wanted to "force" you to go in one direction, they would have put Goodsprings in a canyon and had only one road leading out. I believe what they were trying to do is for newer/less skilled players and people just wanting to follow the main plot, they were pointing the easiest and most direct way out. But it is entirely possible to go in other directions--they even provide equipment to help you do that in Goodsprings (two Stealthboys and some other decent gear easily findable in the area), which obviously they wouldn't have done if they didn't want you to have the option to use them. You just have to work harder for it. Every playthrough I've done in NV, in fact, I don't think I've ever gone the direct plot-route. You just have to be willing to think about the route you're going to take and plan for it *gasp and horror*. You don't want to think, that's what the main route's for. Personally I think they way they designed it reinforces the idea of exploration and choices--you just have to actually be careful and plan out and be strategic with said choices, but there are very, very few choices FNV does not allow you to make. If you see the most obvious route and don't bother to try to find less obvious ones, that's your forcing yourself down a certain path, not the devs.

FWIW, the easiest, but not the only, non-plot route out is to go north, up the hill, use Stealthboy to sneak past Cazadores. Once you're clear of the Cazadores, you can either hang a hard left and walk along the canyon, sneaking past if needed past the Vipers there, and get into the Great Khans camp, or run straight north to New Vegas, being careful not to veer too far to the right where there are more cazadores and I think maybe some deathclaws (although I find cazadores scarier!). What's fun about this route is it gives you access to the Great Khans and their quests early--which is useful as you head into Fiend territory, and it puts you into the edge of Fiend territory. The Fiends are dangerous and you have to be careful, but usually there are one-two scouts far from base you can kill easily enough, and they often have good gear you can use. It also gets you to the Sunset Sarsaparilla factory so you pick up the star quest early. None of these things are game-breaking and it's clear from how the timelines can work out the devs accounted for players going this--and other--routes.

You wanna talk predetermined paths... Wasteland 2 is driving me nuts because despite the hype about "you make choices and it has consequences and we account for player creativity and let people find different ways to solve one problem" is really, really, really overblown. There are a few choices you make, but even then they're very hard line choices with little nuance to them. There are many other places where the outcome is utterly predetermined no matter what you do (see, the Prison story) or where there should be multiple available solutions to a problem but only one works (see, a rescue scene at Rail Nomad).

If they didn't hype up that stuff, I'd just go for the railroad ride that has the occasional junction and enjoy it, but they're just not living up to what they're saying what the game is about.

That said, I think it's a decent game and I am glad I backed it. Combat is interesting (although will be better once they fix the bug that gives all enemies unlimited movement) and the general world development is really good. I wish there were fewer "traps" for choosing skills and attributes and I don't get why, for example, we need both medic and surgeon as a skill. *rolleyes* Not bad for a low budget game though (and $3 mill is low budget) and certainly a good follow up to the original.

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