[Screwy Idea] Making Feat Trees into single Feats


Homebrew and House Rules


A recent thread on the power (over or under) of various feats had one poster mention that feat trees made them sad.

So the thought popped into my head "Why not just make the entire tree into one feat?"

The idea is that you take the first feat in a tree and whenever you meet the prerequisites for any feats down the tree you automatically get those feats without needing to spend a feat slot on them. I have no idea how the system would handle branching trees: maybe you get one branch for free and have to spend a slot to pick up the other branch.

I don't necessarily think this is a great idea, I just feel the question should be asked just in case. Feel free to say there's no way this would work, but don't feel like you have to defend the game as-is: this idea is deliberately screwy and shouldn't be taken too seriously.


It is a good idea and while I don't like the way many have done it, there are a ton of threads and a few 3pp products that attempt this in one form or fashion. You could probably do a search on the boards and find a few or wait for the inevitable pimping of a 3pp by its author (though since I brought it up, this may be the one thread it doesn't happen in).

Typically, at a branch they have a choice as you suggest.


It could work in certain cases I suppose. In other cases I think the better option would be to rework certain feats so the character is still glad to have them several levels later. Combat Expertise, I'm looking at you.


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I personally use a fused feat chain system in my games. There is the feat list as it is now.

FUSED FEATS

Adder Strike – Pinpoint Poisoner
Arcane Armor Training – Arcane Armor Mastery
Blind Fight – Improved Blind Fight – Greater Blind Fight
Catch of Guard – Improvised Weapon Mastery
Combat Expertise – Swift Aid
Combat Reflexes – Pin Down
Cleave – Great Cleave
Cleaving Finish – Improved Cleaving Finish
Dazzling Display – Shatter Defenses
Disruptive – Spellbreaker – Shatterspell
Double Slice – Two-Weapon Rend
Deathless Initiate – Deathless Master – Deathless Zealot
Greater Mercy – Ultimate Mercy
Improved Feint – Greater Feint
Improved Dirty Trick – Greater Dirty Trick – Dirty Trick Master
Improved Bull Rush – Greater Bull Rush – Quick Bull Rush
Improved Trip – Greater Trip
Improved Disarm – Greater Disarm – Disarming Strike
Improved Overrun – Greater Overrun
Improved Sunder – Greater Sunder
Improved Drag – Greater Drag – Quick Drag
Improved Grapple – Greater Grapple
Improved Steal – Greater Steal – Quick Steal
Improved Shield Bash – Shield Slam – Shield Master
Improved Reposition – Tactical Reposition – Greater Reposition – Quick Reposition
Impaling Critical – Improved Impaling Critical
Mobility – Spring Attack – Shot on the Run
Moonlight Stalker – Moonlight Stalker Feint – Moonlight Stalker Master
Net Adept – Net and Trident – Net Maneuvering – Net Trickery
Nightmare Fist – Nightmare Weaver – Nightmare Striker
Precise Shot – Improved Precise Shot – Pinpoint Targeting
Trample – Mounted Onslaught
Trick Riding – Mounted Skirmisher
Rending Claw – Rending Fury – Improved Rending Fury – Greater Rending Fury
Sap Adept – Sap Master
Surprise Follow-Trough – Improved Surprise Follow-Trough
Throw Anything – Improvised Weapon Mastery
Two-Weapon Fighting – Improved Two-Weapon Fighting – Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus – Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialisation – Greater Weapon Specialisation
Shield Focus – Greater Shield Focus
Shield Specialisation – Greater Shield Specialisation
Vital Strike – Improved Vital Strike – Greater Vital Strike
Whip Mastery – Improved Whip Mastery – Greater Whip Mastery
Wind Stance – Lightning Stance


This is something I've thought up many times, if I had to revamp the whole system... feats not having to be taken (at all), but being automatically gained the moment one meets the prerequisites. So, even at the start of a campaing, someone who has the right points in the right abilities, skills or whatever, may start with more feats than someone else. Of course, it'd take a lot of rewrite of the requisites too.
As the system is, though, feats are made (or at least they're supposed to be made) to be balanced while filling the given number of slots, and allowing feat trees to become single feats would be equivalent to allowing free feats, unless some big rework is made.


I did this but I'm rather cautious about messing with assumptions within the game so I limited the list to removing fusing the primary combat feat chains and Combat maneuvers using the model set up by Kobold Press' New Paths Compendium. After that I removed Combat Expertise as a prerequisite for everything. My logic was that my real problem was that having a basic fighting style took too many feats and Martials were the ones that really needed the help with feats.

I didn't touch the archery feats because it seems to be pretty powerful as is.

I also added a number of third party feat books that branch off from the fighting style defining feats.


Da'ath wrote:
It is a good idea and while I don't like the way many have done it....

What didn't you like about those methods?

Astral Wanderer wrote:
As the system is, though, feats are made (or at least they're supposed to be made) to be balanced while filling the given number of slots, and allowing feat trees to become single feats would be equivalent to allowing free feats, unless some big rework is made.

That doesn't strike me as a totally bad thing to want to play with.


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:


What didn't you like about those methods?

To be as brief as possible, the number one issue with many of these systems is they'll include an entire feat line and each and every option in between.

My opinion, mind you, but I think a good guideline is around 2-3 feats in a single combine. There are cases where more might be appropriate, particularly with really crappy feat chains. An important one, again in my opinion is NOT to combine archery feats as a general rule. Archery, in Pathfinder is already a superior fighting style and doesn't need buffed further. It is a tough judgement call, in certain cases.

Hope that explains my position.


Da'ath wrote:
Hope that explains my position.

It does, but it makes me think it would be a lot of work to write-up the combines. Personally I'm a bit too lazy for that.

I think I prefer the idea making certain feats like Combat Expertise into things everyone has, then you don't have to worry about how useless they are since nothing precious was paid for them.

Liberty's Edge

I would suggest taking a look at the Scaling Combat Feats section it the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press

It has pretty much exatly what you are describing! :)


Marc Radle wrote:
It has pretty much exatly what you are describing! :)

Uh, so what do I need it for if I've already gotten the idea?

Sovereign Court

I've worked on this before; currently I'm using this in my home campaign. The campaign just started, so it's really just playtesting right now.

LINK


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
It does, but it makes me think it would be a lot of work to write-up the combines. Personally I'm a bit too lazy for that.

We're in the same boat. The only thing I've done it for, thusfar, are combat maneuvers.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I've worked on this before; currently I'm using this in my home campaign. The campaign just started, so it's really just playtesting right now.

LINK

It at least allows me to be lazier that having to do it myself. :)

Liberty's Edge

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
It has pretty much exatly what you are describing! :)
Uh, so what do I need it for if I've already gotten the idea?

Well, it might help to study how someone else already implemented it OR, heck, you could just use the Scaling Combat Feats as is instead of having to reinvent the wheel and do it all yourself :)

Sovereign Court

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

I've worked on this before; currently I'm using this in my home campaign. The campaign just started, so it's really just playtesting right now.

LINK

It at least allows me to be lazier that having to do it myself. :)

If you use any of it, I'd be interested in how it turns out in practice.


Nothing wrong with this there will just be 1 o two results.

1. You change nothing about the system and end up with "super" characters that have many times the number of feats assumed by the game. Think of a fighter with 50 feats instead of the 15 or so it would normally have by lvl 20. I could see that being fun but it definitely changes things.

2. You change the feat system to only allow a couple of feats per class likely all picked at first level. They then move up the feat trees as they level. This works too but you in effect end up with something akin to planned archetypes. Not fighters so much as now you have the archer class and the sword master class, etc depending on which way you go at first. The system becomes more like a skill based system like savage worlds. I like that system too but again it is different and changes things quite a bit.

Sovereign Court

@Mike: I vehemently dislike #2, because I want characters to change as they grow. Already the system tends to lock you into builds/prerequisite trees as it is. I want the freedom to easily pick a different direction as the campaign goes on and my PC grows and his priorities change.

I worked on implementing #1 for a couple of reasons. One is that it is minimally awkward to use; you only need to look stuff up when going up a level, while during play the feats work the way you're used to. You just have more of them. Another is to reduce stupid prerequisites (Combat Expertise). Finally, this should make martial characters less linear, more geometric, because when you take a scaling/extending feat at a later level, you gain a lot of sub-feats at once. By level 12 a fighter will be in about 3x as many feat trees as he used to be.


Yup that is the problem with #2. How do you make it simple but still flexible? I will need to check out the new paths compendium. Must be the one thing from Kobold Press I don't have.

Sovereign Court

It gets brought up a lot, I still need to look at it too.

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