Fast healing 1 at level 1?

[Michael Sayre]

Zwordsman wrote:

Ah I see. I guess I would agree that Feral focus is weaker than having an animal. (considering all it does is let you get all 2-4 focuses on yourself without killing an AC)
Why is the wildshape weakend? Because it's restricted to animals only?
Hurm. I think you could use focus while wildshaped..It's an SU so you could keep it while polymophed? Though If you use it you might potentially be a bear with some weird weird aspects of another animal presented..

Ah I see on sumoning, but I never use it really anyways so I didn't notice much.

Makes me wish even more the feral Hunter had access to any set of aspects (that must be chosen at lv 1) and wildshape is restricted to the the same types, but allow partial (like that mythic version maybe; but you can't alter it once chosen how far to change) so you can manifest specific aspects via use of wildshape. Say pop some wolf teeth, pop some monkey arms, or be a vermin feral hunter and pop spider web or scorpion poison tail. or full change into those.
Would've been so damn cool

The druid's animal companion and wildshape class features are roughly equal in power, but the Hunter gets a much stronger companion, while the FH gets a much weaker Wildshape. In addition, you can't have two polymorph affects active at the same time, and wildshape is a polymorph effect and Feral Focus is apparently partly a polymorph effect (?!?!?!?), so there's some ambiguity as to whether they can actually be used in conjunction.

Basically, the idea of the Feral Hunter was really good, the mechanics just fell short of delivering the promise.

What I would have liked to see was a Feral Hunter who traded the Animal Companion for Wildshape, didn't mess with Animal Focus to create a change that muddies mechanics solely for flavor, but gave him the permanent focii as though he were a regular Hunter with a dead pet, and traded his Spellcasting for access to Skirmisher tricks and the ability to designate a number of creatures equal to his WIS bonus as members of his pack, allowing them to share his Teamwork feats.
So something like:

Moon Seeker

Proficiencies: The Moon Seeker does not gain proficiency in martial weapons. This alters the Hunter's normal proficiencies.

Wild Combatant: Starting at 1st level the moon seeker learns the use of one Hunter's Trick (see the Skirmisher ranger archetype) and may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Wisdom bonus. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter (7th, 10th, 13th, etc.) he learns an additional trick and gains an additional use per day of this ability. This replaces the hunter's spells class feature.

Call to the Pack: Starting at 1st level the moon seeker may, as a standard action, expend one use of his wild combatant ability to designate a number of creatures equal to his Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) as members of his pack for a number of rounds equal to 1 plus his class level. Creatures must be able to see and hear the moon seeker to benefit from this affect. Members of the moon seeker's pack are granted use of any teamwork feats he knows for the duration of the ability. In addition, the moon seeker may treat any member of his pack as his animal companion for the effects of any of his hunter's tricks. This replaces the hunter's nature training, hunter tactics, bonus trick, and raise animal companion class features.

Lycanthropic Focus: The moon seeker is constantly connected to his animal nature. This functions as the animal focus class feature, except that the hunter always applies the animal aspect to herself, and
there is no limit to this ability’s duration. When the hunter would normally gain the second animal focus class feature, she applies the second focus to herself with no limit on its duration as well. She can end this ability as a free action. This modifies but otherwise counts as the hunter's animal focus class feature.

Wild Shape: At 4th level, a moon seeker gains the ability to change shape. This ability functions like the druid wild shape ability, using the moon seeker’s class level as his effective druid level. This ability replaces the animal companion, improved empathic link, speak with master, and greater empathic link abilities.

[Dilvias]

Claxon wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Play the way you should! /sarcasm

It's fine if you disagree Jiggy. I am not your GM.

I said in my first post it technically works. But as a GM, I'm not having it.

Okay then, I'll bring in my giant scorpion at first level, with weapon focus (claws) as it's feat, plus run ant all the time on it. +3/+3/+2 claw, claw, sting, move 40', plus my own longsword, ripping up your monsters left and right. I'm going to make YOU kill it.

Then, I'll be so griefstricken over the death of my pet, I'll never call another one, so I don't have to ever deal with such a loss again.

(A Hunter's animal companion is VERY strong. So strong that the ability to use animal focus on yourself at will if you give it up is in fact a downgrade in power.)

[Michael Sayre]

Dilvias wrote:

A Hunter's animal companion is VERY strong. So strong that the ability to use animal focus on yourself at will if you give it up is in fact a downgrade in power.

True story. The animal companion is way more powerful than permanent focus (or even focii) on yourself.

[Kayerloth]

! Wow there's a way to get permanent Fast Healing in PF! (Shy of Mythic level rules)?

Okay don't really care 'how' but a bazillion red flags just went up a bazillion flag poles. Not saying I wouldn't allow whatever combo above is being discussed that gets said result but I am going to examine it with a fine tooth comb first and my 'knee jerk' reaction places me solidly in Claxon's 'it ain't happening camp' no matter how much it may be RAW/RAI until I know a whole let more about the pros and cons. There's a reason it (Fast Healing) isn't in the Glossary but found in the Bestiary Universal Monster Rules, one of them is it is rather game changing ability when a PC has it (permanently).

[Michael Sayre]

Fast Healing 1 is going to have very little impact in combat, and out of combat healing in PF is largely a non-issue. It's not difficult to have all the OoC healing you'll ever need by level 3 or so, and it just won't be enough to drastically change anything at levels 1 and 2. I believe that Inner Sea Gods also introduced a pair of boots that give you the functional equivalent of low level fast healing.

The point is, it's a money-saving ability, not a game-changing ability.

[Kayerloth]

Ssalarn wrote:

Fast Healing 1 is going to have very little impact in combat, and out of combat healing in PF is largely a non-issue. It's not difficult to have all the OoC healing you'll ever need by level 3 or so, and it just won't be enough to drastically change anything at levels 1 and 2. I believe that Inner Sea Gods also introduced a pair of boots that give you the functional equivalent of low level fast healing.

The point is, it's a money-saving ability, not a game-changing ability.

And I'd have to respectfully disagree.

It's game changing the same way easy access to Wand(s) of Cure Light Wounds is game changing. It is game changing in that the character in question is probably never going to need to rest for more than a few minutes between encounters and can do so without using a single resource where it concerns his hit points. What again is one of the things the game is designed to do with an encounter? (/rhetorical question) In my games two things generally cause a rest/break for the characters, running out of spells or running out of hit points. You've just eliminated one of those for at least one player as they are not ever going to run out of hit points (shy of outright death of course). This heavily encourages the "15-minute" adventuring day. I don't know if you've ever had a player with a permanent Fast Healing ability. I have, though it was in the form of Fast Healing 3 (Epic Feat) in a post 20th campaign.

A character with Fast Healing 1 is going to regain 10 hit points a minute. Doesn't sound like much but that's 600/hour without any exhaustion of resources. If that is not game changing you are playing a very different game than I typically do. Which is great, it shows the flexibility of the system but I'd still call it game changing.

Put another way give the entire party Fast Healing 1 see what happens.

[Michael Sayre]

In combat emergency healing still has to happen as Fast Healing makes no difference there, and Wands of CLW are already far more common and easy to access with the same effect. Anyone can make the wands (or the boots), only Hunter's with dead pets can gain it through this avenue. Not an issue.

Your "600 points of healing" is a hypothetical strawman that just doesn't match to any gameplay experience I've ever experienced. Are we seriously thinking everyone is going to be able to skate past with 1 hit point and then heal back to full before the next? There's so many holes in that idea its hard to know where to start.

Long story short, if your players all want to dip Hunter and murder their bugs for this buff, they're paying a higher price than it's actually worth in permanent resources.

[Gark the Goblin]

Wands of cure light are 5.5x faster. If the party wants to conserve resources by all dipping hunter, it stands to reason that they'd also conserve buffs, and the adventuring day might last even longer.

[Azten]

I think they'd adventure longer too, actually, because they can just hide away or hole up in a room and let time handle their wounds, instead of someone using wands or scrolls or potions or, even worse, spell slots.

[boring7]

Ssalarn wrote:

Fast Healing 1 is going to have very little impact in combat, and out of combat healing in PF is largely a non-issue. It's not difficult to have all the OoC healing you'll ever need by level 3 or so, and it just won't be enough to drastically change anything at levels 1 and 2. I believe that Inner Sea Gods also introduced a pair of boots that give you the functional equivalent of low level fast healing.

The point is, it's a money-saving ability, not a game-changing ability.

With the wealth levels I've been stuck at in almost every game I ever played? A money-saving ability is one HELL of an ability.

Also, I don't know how so many folks game in such a way they aren't starving for spells, even if the cleric ISN'T burning most of his or her juice on healing.

But then that's probably why I find Sorcerer unplayable.

[Suthainn]

A wand of Cure Light Wounds is 750g, that wand can heal anywhere from 100-450 points of damage, a wand of Infernal Healing costs the same and can potentially heal 500 hps. Beyond second, or maybe third level at worst almost any party should be able to afford at least 1 or 2 of those, which covers pretty much all the healing they should need for an extended period. Fast Healing 1 on one or even all the characters really isn't making a game changing money difference unless your GM is running a very unusual campaign where the characters WBL is vastly reduced for some reason (with normal WBL a first level wand is 6.25% of the average 3rd level parties wealth, totally affordable), or one where the most basic of magic items are unavailable to buy or craft, in which case obviously things will be different but that's outside the bounds of the average game.

[graystone]

Boots of the Earth cost 5000gp and the whole party can use it to heal up to full after each fight.

[boring7]

Suthainn wrote:

A wand of Cure Light Wounds is 750g, that wand can heal anywhere from 100-450 points of damage, a wand of Infernal Healing costs the same and can potentially heal 500 hps. Beyond second, or maybe third level at worst almost any party should be able to afford at least 1 or 2 of those, which covers pretty much all the healing they should need for an extended period. Fast Healing 1 on one or even all the characters really isn't making a game changing money difference unless your GM is running a very unusual campaign where the characters WBL is vastly reduced for some reason (with normal WBL a first level wand is 6.25% of the average 3rd level parties wealth, totally affordable), or one where the most basic of magic items are unavailable to buy or craft, in which case obviously things will be different but that's outside the bounds of the average game.

WBL is around 50-75% in most games I play, and a lot of the wealth is suboptimal, the axe with flaming in a campaign that fights a LOT of fire creatures; the +1 crossbow for the elven wizard; the ring of fire resistance. And once you use up the wand of CLW, it's gone for good rather than replaced with an equivalent WBL cash reward.

No, I don't know how this keeps happening or how it settles up compared to everyone else.

But that aside, yeah, fast healing 1 isn't that big a deal.

The reason it FEELS like a big deal is because it is so hard to get and because it can change certain rules. Stabilization rolls, for example, don't happen because the party member is auto-healing (1 point of healing is enough to stop the bleeding) and if the martial character is cut off from the healer, his ability to auto-heal over a particularly long and grueling combat can end up changing the really scary battle to a mildly alarming battle.

Statistically, it doesn't change much. But in the field of perception bias it gets pretty big, because "holy heck my dude was 1 point away from dying, the cleric was at the bottom of a pit, and his healing saved him! I will remember this for years!"

I'm not sure how relevant this babbling is, it's late and I sometimes get verbose on sleep deprivation.

[Dilvias]

Speaking of perception bias, the one thing that does concern me about hunters with dead companions is Perception. It is really simple to be a perception monster with hunter (both regular and verminous). Wisdom is going to be fairly important for hunters, with a wisdom of at least 14 pretty standard. Half elf hunters running either Hawk or Wasp full time at first level are going to have a +15 to perception trivially. (+4 skill, +2 keen senses, +3 skill focus, +2 wis, +4 competence from animal focus). If they're willing to push it (taking the Alertness feat, a trait for +1 to perception and wis 16), they can hit +19. And if they are not in combat, they will almost certainly have it running by default.

+15 to +19 perception at first level makes most perception challenges for them an auto-success. Heck, that's almost see invisible levels of perception. In a home game you can up the difficulty, but then you run the risk of things that are challenging for the hunter are almost impossible for the regular character.

[boring7]

Dilvias wrote:

Speaking of perception bias, the one thing that does concern me about hunters with dead companions is Perception. It is really simple to be a perception monster with hunter (both regular and verminous). Wisdom is going to be fairly important for hunters, with a wisdom of at least 14 pretty standard. Half elf hunters running either Hawk or Wasp full time at first level are going to have a +15 to perception trivially. (+4 skill, +2 keen senses, +3 skill focus, +2 wis, +4 competence from animal focus). If they're willing to push it (taking the Alertness feat, a trait for +1 to perception and wis 16), they can hit +19. And if they are not in combat, they will almost certainly have it running by default.

+15 to +19 perception at first level makes most perception challenges for them an auto-success. Heck, that's almost see invisible levels of perception. In a home game you can up the difficulty, but then you run the risk of things that are challenging for the hunter are almost impossible for the regular character.

Well, is that all that different or concerning than min-maxing of any other stripe? Auto-success on perception at a cost of a feat, trait, animal companion, and suboptimal ability score choices seems on par with the silver-tongued ultra-diplomat who can talk the archlich into giving up his plan of murdering the world, which I've seen built on more than one occasion around here.

[Jarred Henninger]

my life oracle is looking for bugs to squish

[Pupsocket]

ryric wrote:

Taking the time and effort to befriend a carnivorous creature, only to then kill it in order to gain personal power, is evil. It's not about being mean/nice to spiders, it's about a deliberate betrayal.

Everybody keeps leaving out the part where you're killing your friend for kewl powerz. The fact that you friend is a disgusting murderous bug doesn't actually matter much.

Anyway, I've said my bit here. I don't want to derail this into an alignment thread, and I don't think we're going to convince each other on this point. Happy gaming!

Dude needs to learn the difference between player agenda and character agenda. This is the dumbest argument I've seen all week.

[graystone]

Pupsocket wrote:

ryric wrote:

Taking the time and effort to befriend a carnivorous creature, only to then kill it in order to gain personal power, is evil. It's not about being mean/nice to spiders, it's about a deliberate betrayal.

Everybody keeps leaving out the part where you're killing your friend for kewl powerz. The fact that you friend is a disgusting murderous bug doesn't actually matter much.

Anyway, I've said my bit here. I don't want to derail this into an alignment thread, and I don't think we're going to convince each other on this point. Happy gaming!

Dude needs to learn the difference between player agenda and character agenda. This is the dumbest argument I've seen all week.

Yep. Me I'm pulling out the butter and pretending it's a lobster! *crack!*

[blahpers]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

ryric wrote:

Also, if your plan is to murder your own companion in order to gain personal power, I hope that your starting alignment involves the word "evil." Killing a friend to beef yourself up is pretty much cut and dry evil, not even a shades of gray area.

Even deliberately engineering situation where your companion could die, or refusing to help it, or sending it into overly deadly situations - basically trying to get it killed - is an evil act. The creature is your friend.

I guess if you played normally and the companion happened to die, it's not evil to not seek out a new one. That's the only situation where I would find this plan morally acceptable.

Uh...you are aware that this plan only works with a Vermin Companion, right? Y'know, the mindless ones who are no more intelligent than the normal sized versions? So...this is precisely morally on par with killing your pet ant in real life. Is that enough to make someone Evil? I'm gonna go with a 'hell no'.

...Wow.

[Umbranus]

Just using this ability to get fast healing 1 should be totally ok. If you took the mystical healer and started turning it on and off every turn to get 1d4+1 healing every other turn would start to look...strange.

[Pendagast]

ryric wrote:

Taking the time and effort to befriend a carnivorous creature, only to then kill it in order to gain personal power, is evil. It's not about being mean/nice to spiders, it's about a deliberate betrayal.

Everybody keeps leaving out the part where you're killing your friend for kewl powerz. The fact that you friend is a disgusting murderous bug doesn't actually matter much.

Anyway, I've said my bit here. I don't want to derail this into an alignment thread, and I don't think we're going to convince each other on this point. Happy gaming!

We're talking DnD/Pf pets here… they die ALL the time.

That's why the druids pet is always named Fluffy VI, because there were five previous pets!

So "killing off" the pet isn't really that hard…. the HARD part is NOT having a dead pet.

You don't have to do it on purpose to receive the benefit, you don't even have to do it yourself.

so how the pet is killed is kinda irrelevant except for specific games.

You could even write into a character backstory that the pet was killed prior the the start o the game, and the character mourns the pet regularly, and refuses to replace due to his importance in his heart.

and he still gets the bennies.

Anyhow… this is exactly the reason why I would not allow it at my table.

1) I wouldn't allow a character, even an evil one to deliberately kill off his own companion. Otherwise it would be like becoming an ex-druid or ex-paladin, you lose those powers until you atone…at which point you gain another pet.
2) The pet is part of that character class, I don't allow metagaming for build purposes, especially on a dip, because if you are forsaking a part of "who you are" (like a companion that's a class feature) then you cease being that class and…refer to #1.

Either way, it would be meant for a temporary in-between power, until you replace your animal… at my table at least.

[boring7]

What if "Who I am" is a hunter that is good with bugs but doesn't particularly want to drag one around with me? I go to places where such things wouldn't be comfortable and would separate them from their proper place in nature, better to let each bug be in its place and befriend and leave them as my travels progress.

I mean, really, I'd love to play a ranger who swapped Dogmeat for Skynet.

[Pendagast]

boring7 wrote:

What if "Who I am" is a hunter that is good with bugs but doesn't particularly want to drag one around with me? I go to places where such things wouldn't be comfortable and would separate them from their proper place in nature, better to let each bug be in its place and befriend and leave them as my travels progress.

I mean, really, I'd love to play a ranger who swapped Dogmeat for Skynet.

then "who you are" would be a different archetype or class, thats what.

[Scavion]

Animal Sacrifice isn't that crazy in nature affiliated religions. Seeing as it's a Supernatural ability granted to a divine class...

Here's a potential backstory.

Hunter is viciously wounded and bleeding out. His only hope of survival is the sacrifice of his bonded companion.

Backstory #2

Tribal tradition of Hunters sacrificing their companion to gain it's spirit/power. "Coming of Age Ceremony"

Really all I'm seeing is people squeamish about a single character not needing to be cast cure spells on so they switch to "BUT ALIGNMENT!!1!!111!"

Which is just a sad argument to make since it's so subjective.

[Magicdealer]

Yeah. It seems like a lot of folks dislike fast healing.

There are a billion reasons why a hunter would kill their animal companion, and a billion more why they wouldn't choose to replace it. Heck, probably more than that. Roleplaying can justify a lot.

But roleplaying isn't needed to justify anything here.

There aren't any rules preventing this from working. Just people who don't like it and who plan on punishing their players if their players like it.

If you hate it so much, toss a ban on it in your houserules, along with summoners, mindchemists, disable device, diplomacy, stats over 16, skill bonuses over 10, and any weapon that isn't simple.

But house rules aren't relevant in the rules forum.

[_Ozy_]

It's like some people here never saw Ol' Yeller.

[Cap. Darling]

Flawed wrote:

Arksangiel wrote:

Captian Von Spicy Wiener wrote:

The Hunter archetype Verminous Hunter gains animal focus at lvl 1 like a normal hunter but with different options. One of the options grants fast healing 1 and 25% fortification.

If my companion is dead at can I continually have fast healing 1 and 25% fortification up at all times?

Yes...and try this to make it even more overpowered...

Verminous Hunter 1 <any feat>
VH 2
Unbreakable Fighter 1 Endurance, Diehard, Fast Healer
VH 3+

Now your con modifier gets added into the mix, and it's not hard to get a +4 con so you have fast healing 3.

Of course, you could also go:

VH 1 <any feat>
Unbreakable Fighter 1 Endurance, Diehard
Invulnerable Rager X Fast Healer at 3

Now you've got massive DR, Guarded Life to double your fast healing (nonlethal and lethal are healed as separate pools), and can rage to buff your con for even faster fast healing or...

Half-Orc
VH 1 <any feat>
Unbreakable Fighter X Endurance, Diehard, then Fast Healer at 3

Put all your FCBs into +2 to con score for determining when you die (orc bonus) and effectively get toughness X2.

One of the Eldritch heritage feat line can get you a +6 inherent bonus to con, greater rage for +6 (+9 with a +4 furious courageous weapon), +6 enhancement and you could have a 38 con fairly easy. Fast healing 8 by late game. I'm sure we could find more.

Be a bloodrager and grab levels in dragon disciple to grab a +4 inherent strength if you need it. Along with the 11 levels of bloodrager and 4 dragon disciple qualifying you for wings from the Draconic bloodline.

A spell eater bloodrager can forget the vermin hunter level and get fast healing 1 while raging that scales as they level. With a similar build you hit fast healing 10 easily.

I cannot help but picture the epic quest to find the remains of the long dead giant scorpion and cast reincarnation on it just as the invincible multiclassed villain takes the scene:)

[Pounce]

Arksangiel wrote:

Captian Von Spicy Wiener wrote:

The Hunter archetype Verminous Hunter gains animal focus at lvl 1 like a normal hunter but with different options. One of the options grants fast healing 1 and 25% fortification.

If my companion is dead at can I continually have fast healing 1 and 25% fortification up at all times?

Yes...and try this to make it even more overpowered...

Verminous Hunter 1 <any feat>
VH 2
Unbreakable Fighter 1 Endurance, Diehard, Fast Healer
VH 3+

Now your con modifier gets added into the mix, and it's not hard to get a +4 con so you have fast healing 3.

Of course, you could also go:

VH 1 <any feat>
Unbreakable Fighter 1 Endurance, Diehard
Invulnerable Rager X Fast Healer at 3

Now you've got massive DR, Guarded Life to double your fast healing (nonlethal and lethal are healed as separate pools), and can rage to buff your con for even faster fast healing or...

Half-Orc
VH 1 <any feat>
Unbreakable Fighter X Endurance, Diehard, then Fast Healer at 3

Put all your FCBs into +2 to con score for determining when you die (orc bonus) and effectively get toughness X2.

How about this?

Half Orc (Shaman's Apprentice)
VH 1 (Endurance, Diehard)
Witch X (Scarred Witch Doctor), picking up Fast Healing at 3

Gives you even more incentive to pump your con, and though you are missing out on DR, you are a con-dependent caster with a sprinkle of extra intelligence. Just let the AC live for the first 1-2 levels, helping you survive, and then fluff the scars as a way of remembering your animal companion. Damn, I kind of want to play this.

[Tarantula]

Quote:

A hunter may begin play with any of the animals available to a druid.

Quote:

At 1st level, a verminous hunter must choose a vermin companion instead of an animal companion.

So you must choose a vermin instead of an animal, but you may begin play with one. So you can RAW start without an animal companion.