God sucks at his job


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Elohim, Bestiary 4 wrote:
An elohim is a strange being obsessed with creating miniature worlds populated with creatures of its choosing. It creates new permanent demiplanes or alters remote environments in pre-existing planes, seeds them with new life, then eventually abandons them. An elohim might return to its creation decades or centuries later to observe how its progeny have fared, and might allow them to continue or eradicate them completely. Elohim communicate with other beings only rarely, and always in a cryptic fashion.

So, I don't think anyone could possibly claim that the elohim is not modeled directly off of the Judeo-Chrisitian God (at least in the vague parts of Genesis where the various myths of the Bronze Age Semitic peoples were all garbled together).

Beyond the name, if you look closely at the illustration on Bestiary 4 page 86, you'll see that the Elohim has Hebrew (or pseudo-Hebrew) lettering on its chestplate.

Now, let's take a look at the description again:

Elohim, Bestiary 4 wrote:
An elohim is a strange being obsessed with creating miniature worlds populated with creatures of its choosing. It creates new permanent demiplanes or alters remote environments in pre-existing planes, seeds them with new life, then eventually abandons them. An elohim might return to its creation decades or centuries later to observe how its progeny have fared, and might allow them to continue or eradicate them completely. Elohim communicate with other beings only rarely, and always in a cryptic fashion.

Leaving aside that its first day's work is roughly 76 feet across, there's also the problem with duration.

The demiplane will only last 23 days.

Now a solar, which is the same CR but has no mythic ranks, is much better at it, because as an effectively 20th-level cleric, it can cast create greater demiplane, then use its permanency spell-like ability to make it permanent for free. And it can do this three times per day!

The only thing it can't do is create animals or plants from nothing with a standard action.

However, it can use stone shape on a piece of rock roughly the same size as the creature it wants, duplicate stone to flesh with miracle, and use wish to duplicate polymorph any object to turn the flesh blob statue into a creature permanently (since the wall is flesh, it's +5 for same kingdom, +2 for same size, and +2 for being related, since it is a statue of the thing it's being transformed into, only a lot more wobbly than usual). And this effect can create creatures with WAY more than 4 HD.

It's vulnerable to dispelling, but the solar can impede dispelling magics on the demiplane. High-level casters will be able to make the concentration check, but they will be perforated on the next round by a full attack with slaying arrows.

So, in sum, the angel is over six times better at creating worlds out of nothing than the God stand-in, and while the solar's ability to create life is RAW inferior in terms of speed and ease, the solar can produce more powerful creatures, and only powerful abjuration magic can reveal the difference.


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Well the fact that it has stats in the first place makes it a pretty poor god.


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I haven't seen the fellow but does any of the stuff you haven't quoted actually state it uses the Pc creation spells other than its own unique abilities to create these planes?


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I linked the stat block.

Yeah, Elohim casts 1/day create demiplane as a spell-like ability.

That spell is not dismissible, but they also get mage's disjunction 1/day, and you can use disjunction to make a dispel check against a demiplane to destroy it. Since elohim created that demiplane, his dispel check succeeds automatically. It's a nice bit of rules interaction that I can respect the designers for.

Also, he can expel creatures from it (like, say, two humans).

He can take on any shape, and exist ethereally, and can control the weather, kill vast numbers of creatures at once, or heal even the gravest of wounds with a touch.

I find it odd that it can't cast resurrection.

But really, all it would have taken to fix this is give him permanency as a spell-like ability once per day.


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I thought it was a joke on the Judeo-Christian god. Almost an intended mockery. I didn't take it seriously at all, and I used to be a licensed clergyman. :D


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I thought it was kind of a bold choice to create such a creature, as well, especially given the creature write up.

If they'd called it Tzabaoth, changed the writeup slightly, and NOT PUT HEBREW ON THE CHESTPLATE it would probably have been obscure enough to fly under most people's radar.

Also, the truly bizarre illustration throws most folks off the scent. Where in the everloving hell did they get that concept?

Why does it only have one eye?

Why are its fingers so long and thin?

Why is there a glowing wireframe d12 floating above its head?

Elohim works in mysterious ways.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:

I thought it was kind of a bold choice to create such a creature, as well, especially given the creature write up.

If they'd called it Tzabaoth, changed the writeup slightly, and NOT PUT HEBREW ON THE CHESTPLATE it would probably have been obscure enough to fly under most people's radar.

Also, the truly bizarre illustration throws most folks off the scent. Where in the everloving hell did they get that concept?

Why does it only have one eye?

Why are its fingers so long and thin?

Why is there a glowing wireframe d12 floating above its head?

Elohim works in mysterious ways.

In regards to the d12, I guess if it was good enough for Plato then it's good enough for Paizo. Check out platonic solids, the dodecahedron is the fifth.


Could it just recast the spell the next day to reset the timer?


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While it is a reference to hebrew mythology I think it draws a lot more from ancient aliens lore than it does being a mockery of anything. It's that same sort of "what is god was an alien" ting that pops up on the History Channel all the time and the guys at Paizo seem to really dig. That being said I completely agree with you that it is a mistake to not include permanency or a line about the demiplane lasting forever. One of the designers (I don't remember which) specifically said that there should be another ability to makes the elohim's demiplanes permanent.


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Sauce987654321 wrote:
Could it just recast the spell the next day to reset the timer?

Yeah, but that means it can't ever leave its creation alone for much more than three weeks and two days, which is clearly contrary to its text writeup, where it's implied that it can leave its creation to grow on its own for generations before coming back to check on it.


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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
One of the designers (I don't remember which) specifically said that there should be another ability to makes the elohim's demiplanes permanent.

Maybe gate, so it could call a solar and have it use its permanency spell-like ability. ;P


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:


If they'd called it Tzabaoth, changed the writeup slightly, and NOT PUT HEBREW ON THE CHESTPLATE it would probably have been obscure enough to fly under most people's radar.

To be fair, the Hebrew on the chest plate is just saying "Elohim" on one side, and the letters are mirrored on the other side.

*Why* it needs it's (race's?) name on its clothing is a different question altogether.

There's an added fun bit: in Jewish belief, writing one of Gods names in Hebrew on a paper makes it sacrosanct, and as such the entire book is considered holy and should not be mistreated or destroyed.


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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
While it is a reference to hebrew mythology I think it draws a lot more from ancient aliens lore than it does being a mockery of anything. It's that same sort of "what is god was an alien" ting that pops up on the History Channel all the time and the guys at Paizo seem to really dig. That being said I completely agree with you that it is a mistake to not include permanency or a line about the demiplane lasting forever. One of the designers (I don't remember which) specifically said that there should be another ability to makes the elohim's demiplanes permanent.

Considering my google search for the image in question returnedf a bunch of "Elohim means Yahweh" and "Alien God-Jesus" stuff...yeah.

Honestly, what would make the most sense is just saying that their create demiplane ability is permanent. Period. Unless they destroy it specifically.

They'd still take longer, but since they're really "pretenders to the throne" of True Gods what the the stat-having and the not-God-being they work like Glorian pretty well.

I mean, I can make a wizard who can create demiplanes and life forms, and he can wear a chestplate that has hebrew on it.


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To be honest, I thought the Elohim was meant to be kind of a reference to GMs who like to homebrew (hence the D12). In a short amount of time, generations can pass in the blink of an eye thanks to the fantasy world and there's more than one home brewing GM who would make a world, shelve it for a few years, then scrap it and make a new one.


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Something of note with the alien Jesus thing, several real life conspiracy theorists claim that the standard grey aliens are called elohim and are the creators of humanity.


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It might not be a joke. It holds up pretty well as a flat reference to the Demiurge.

No idea why it doesn't get permanency and/or create demiplane, greater.

Sovereign Court

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Making a demiplane permanent? heh just say he does whenever he wants to, as a frequent DM, that's how I would run it.

Aboleth for examples are great scientists, I don't go looking around for every single rules on how to make mad science experiments with appropriate mechanics.

Shadow Lodge

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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
That being said I completely agree with you that it is a mistake to not include permanency or a line about the demiplane lasting forever.

There was one:

Quote:
An elohim is a strange being obsessed with creating miniature worlds populated with creatures of its choosing. It creates new permanent demiplanes


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Kthulhu wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
That being said I completely agree with you that it is a mistake to not include permanency or a line about the demiplane lasting forever.

There was one:

Quote:
An elohim is a strange being obsessed with creating miniature worlds populated with creatures of its choosing. It creates new permanent demiplanes

Always rough when they slip mechanics into the Ecology section.


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I did see that link just wasn't sure there wasn't something more in the book that wasnt open licence. I'd say just change the mechanics a bit and add a fee unique abilities then.


Heh.

Shadow Lodge

The ironic bit? That quote is also directly quoted in the original post.


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blahpers wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:
That being said I completely agree with you that it is a mistake to not include permanency or a line about the demiplane lasting forever.

There was one:

Quote:
An elohim is a strange being obsessed with creating miniature worlds populated with creatures of its choosing. It creates new permanent demiplanes
Always rough when they slip mechanics into the Ecology section.

I was told that statblock trumps descriptive text?

Shadow Lodge

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I dunno if there is a default answer to that question, but for me, flavor ALWAYS trumps crunch. The only reason crunch exists is to deliver the flavor.


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Yeah, I'd say that most DMs wouldn't really think to question the duration issue.

I think one of the reasons they're wary about giving an outsider permanency is because (if you have the right CL boosting tricks) you could gate in a solar, and their three uses of permanency could very well more than pay for the gold cost of the gate. Effectively, permanency now costs 3,333 gold, period.


Fluff (which may or may not beat crunch) says you also have to destroy or offer up for destruction a major magic item/artifact of evil to get 'em to give you the time of day.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In the odd chance that you actually decide to run these things as a GM, you've got the following options.

1. Go strictly by the rules and call the planes temporary.

2. Say that the Elohim has an ability that automatically makes the planes permanent, even if "gasp" it's not supported by RAW. Call it the "Genesis Wave" if you like.

I think that most campaigns will survive either choice.


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LazarX wrote:

In the odd chance that you actually decide to run these things as a GM, you've got the following options.

1. Go strictly by the rules and call the planes temporary.

2. Say that the Elohim has an ability that automatically makes the planes permanent, even if "gasp" it's not supported by RAW. Call it the "Genesis Wave" if you like.

I think that most campaigns will survive either choice.

Genesis!? Genesis allowed is not! Is plane[t] forbidden!


I don't get the "FLUFF TRUMPS CRUNCH" answer to this. Someone is essentially pointing out a typo and you're telling them the typo doesn't exist because you can get the gist of the sentence through context.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So, I don't think anyone could possibly claim that the elohim is not modeled directly off of the Judeo-Chrisitian God

I could, but then again, I've heard of Raelians before.


I just kind of thought it was a clever and subtle reference to the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's reference to Derleth's Lovecraft-related stuff, myself.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Alex Smith 908 wrote:
I don't get the "FLUFF TRUMPS CRUNCH" answer to this. Someone is essentially pointing out a typo and you're telling them the typo doesn't exist because you can get the gist of the sentence through context.

I don't see it that way. I see it more as "We can't fix this typo, we have to wait for someone else to do it. If you don't want to wait, we suggest looking at the context surrounding the typo to get the gist of the sentence."

Advising someone to take the fluff(or as I prefer, flavor) over the crunch doesn't mean you're denying there are issues with the crunch to begin with, nor does it rule out the possibility of the crunch being changed to match the flavor later on.


I don't know, but reading this I find it pretty offensive. Could one of the creators shed some light on if this was intentional?


Barong wrote:
I don't know, but reading this I find it pretty offensive. Could one of the creators shed some light on if this was intentional?

Offensive? In what way?


Barong wrote:
I don't know, but reading this I find it pretty offensive. Could one of the creators shed some light on if this was intentional?

Serious question - with all the real-world mythos and lore (including world religions) that D&D and PF has drawn from, why is a creature based on space-aliens especially offensive?


cheechako wrote:
Barong wrote:
I don't know, but reading this I find it pretty offensive. Could one of the creators shed some light on if this was intentional?
Serious question - with all the real-world mythos and lore (including world religions) that D&D and PF has drawn from, why is a creature based on space-aliens especially offensive?

Elohim is a name used for god. It's like slapping the name 'Jesus' on a monster that is made up of man-eating daisies.


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Also, in the d20pfsrd entry on Elohim I found:

"Organization solitary or horde (1 plus 5–20 animals, magical beasts, and plants of CR 8–10)" . . . but they can only create creatures of up to 4 HD, which doesn't get you CR 8, let alone 10.


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Barong wrote:
Elohim is a name used for god. It's like slapping the name 'Jesus' on a monster that is made up of man-eating daisies.

And Elohim are also (supposedly) a species of extraterrestrials that created and populated the Earth. The one eye seems very Illuminati too, although Illuminati has nothing to do with Raelism.

This whole create a place, populate it, and then leave is obviously based on some rough concept of Rael's space-aliens. I am unfamiliar with any Judeo-Christian faiths that claim on the seventh day, God just up and left, so I don't see the connection between the PF Elohim and that God.


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Barong wrote:
cheechako wrote:
Barong wrote:
I don't know, but reading this I find it pretty offensive. Could one of the creators shed some light on if this was intentional?
Serious question - with all the real-world mythos and lore (including world religions) that D&D and PF has drawn from, why is a creature based on space-aliens especially offensive?
Elohim is a name used for god. It's like slapping the name 'Jesus' on a monster that is made up of man-eating daisies.

The fact that we don't give a flying fark about the Titans, statted-up gods and demigods, and spiritual paths of other religions leaves us not particularly receptive to the idea that christian iconography is taboo. A lot of us are fairly secular around here and don't care.

But let's assume Abrahamics deserve extra special consideration; Elohim (literally "sons of El") are the children of El and Asherah (God's wife from back before Judaism came to be/became monotheistic) and were gods of a polytheistic Canaanite religion. They were kinda-sorta adopted into Judaism as a few more faces of the same One True God™ and then tabled with the "you can't say god's name," prohibition. This is how you DO polytheism-to-monotheism, the "all false gods are demons" part comes after you have enough converts to start making war on the infidel. And after you get people to stop using the names of their old family and tribal gods.

Of course, as cheechako so kindly pointed out, they're actually aliens from the Raelian cult. So if you're going to get angry, get angry at the real-world cult, not the people making fun of them for using them as a bunch of sociopathic, morally questionable god-children playing with reality and being weaker than a proper archangel, let alone a real god.

here's that link again.

It's also different than using jesus because it's a really obscure name, like seriously.

But feel free to get angry at whatever you want, this is a free country after all.


Elohim

As a Christian, my immediate thought was what you did, Barong.

Then I thought of this guy's stuff that was built off of this guy's stuff, and this thing that referenced the two of them in its own unique way.

I'm pretty sure it's that last thing (which has it's own share of problems) that they're mostly taking for inspiration. Still potentially problematic, but much less so, over-all.

EDIT: To be a little more clear, I think they based it off of other stuff, but then added touches as an homage to their origins, rather than starting with their origins, and then arriving to the version you see now. Very different process. Still potentially problematic.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Also, in the d20pfsrd entry on Elohim I found:

"Organization solitary or horde (1 plus 5–20 animals, magical beasts, and plants of CR 8–10)" . . . but they can only create creatures of up to 4 HD, which doesn't get you CR 8, let alone 10.

Nah, it makes the creatures as children, then they grow up quickly because of time-distortion.

Oh wait, they don't get Greater Demiplane so they can't do that, can they? Nevermind.

Sovereign Court

When CR 23 being wants to walk around with cr 8-10 creatures...I'm pretty sure that he can.

Frost giants have white dragons pet after all and they don't create them.


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boring7 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Also, in the d20pfsrd entry on Elohim I found:

"Organization solitary or horde (1 plus 5–20 animals, magical beasts, and plants of CR 8–10)" . . . but they can only create creatures of up to 4 HD, which doesn't get you CR 8, let alone 10.

Nah, it makes the creatures as children, then they grow up quickly because of time-distortion.

Oh wait, they don't get Greater Demiplane so they can't do that, can they? Nevermind.

It can wait for them to grow.


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boring7 wrote:
Barong wrote:
cheechako wrote:
Barong wrote:
I don't know, but reading this I find it pretty offensive. Could one of the creators shed some light on if this was intentional?
Serious question - with all the real-world mythos and lore (including world religions) that D&D and PF has drawn from, why is a creature based on space-aliens especially offensive?
Elohim is a name used for god. It's like slapping the name 'Jesus' on a monster that is made up of man-eating daisies.

The fact that we don't give a flying fark about the Titans, statted-up gods and demigods, and spiritual paths of other religions leaves us not particularly receptive to the idea that christian iconography is taboo. A lot of us are fairly secular around here and don't care.

But let's assume Abrahamics deserve extra special consideration; Elohim (literally "sons of El") are the children of El and Asherah (God's wife from back before Judaism came to be/became monotheistic) and were gods of a polytheistic Canaanite religion. They were kinda-sorta adopted into Judaism as a few more faces of the same One True God™ and then tabled with the "you can't say god's name," prohibition. This is how you DO polytheism-to-monotheism, the "all false gods are demons" part comes after you have enough converts to start making war on the infidel. And after you get people to stop using the names of their old family and tribal gods.

Of course, as cheechako so kindly pointed out, they're actually aliens from the Raelian cult. So if you're going to get angry, get angry at the real-world cult, not the people making fun of them for using them as a bunch of sociopathic, morally questionable god-children playing with reality and being weaker than a proper archangel, let alone a real god.

here's that link again.

It's also different than using jesus because it's a really obscure name, like seriously.

But feel free to get angry at whatever you want,...

I wasn't angry, I just wondered why they used a name taken straight out of the Torah for God. But I hadn't heard of these 'Raelists' and after reading about them and their 'Elohim', it seems Paizo did take these creatures from there.


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Great job on this thread. I've always liked Solars.


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Why would it be more offensive than the way deities from other mythologies have been used in RPGs?

As another poster mentioned earlier, if you take the gnostic approach it fits pretty well with the concept of the Demiurge.


The Statue and Polymorph Any Object would not work. Per the spell:

"If the target of the spell does not have physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), this spell grants a base score of 10 to each missing ability score. If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this spell grants a score of 5 to such scores."

Your new people would be very dim.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ye gods, why rez this thread? You didn't even create it!

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