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Hello citizens of the messageboards. I have a few questions about as you can guess what I should do pertaining to the Gods and Goddesses of pathfinder universe I am so fond of. I have only ever played a few sessions in 3.5 and they were in low levels. The group I am playing with has played for years and have lots of experience with the older systems. I have been told many tales of dealing with the various Deities. To my knowledge in 3.5 the deities would directly interfere with the world and the players and many times players would met the Gods.
On the other hand in pathfinder the gods have a hands off policy due to some rule. They can only interfere indirectly and the commune spell is the only way to speak with them. I know in WotR you deal with Iomedea a lot.
In the campaign I have created the main quest is directly related to certain deities and I have one holy warrior and two other players that have directly promised things to Gods. One swore vengeance on two deities he has always worshiped and the other swore on his god that he would do something as well.
What I am wanting to know is what do I do about that. I would love to incorporate these Deities into my campaign two are very invested in the successful outcome of this quest. I have yet to play in a campaign where the Gods do anything but grant domains and answer commune questions. So here are my questions
Is it reasonable to met the Gods in pathfinder and get boon from them if you are doing things for them?
True Resurrection is the Deity bringing a PC back is that something a Deity would do of their own volition so their follower can finish a task the Deity gave them? or can that spell only happen if a mortal casts it and a Deity is willing?
Has anyone dealt with this in their pathfinder experience? I am also happy to get the varied opinions on the matter. This is something I really want to happen but if it might get to broken or just not fit the world I need to know.
Thank all of you wonderful people in advance.
So here are my questions
Is it reasonable to met the Gods in pathfinder and get boon from them if you are doing things for them?
I'd say yes as long as it doesn't unbalance the party. If everyone is swearing oaths to the gods and everyone gets boons than that is great. However if you have an atheist in the corner he/she shouldn't feel cheated out of a boon.
True Resurrection is the Deity bringing a PC back is that something a Deity would do of their own volition so their follower can finish a task the Deity gave them? or can that spell only happen if a mortal casts it and a Deity is willing?
You want to be a little more careful here. Why does the god just not revive all good people? How I run it is the gods must act through intermediaries on the mortal plane, they can provide spells and boons but the mortals must use the power provided e.g. A mortal cleric may receive a message in a dream from her god to seek out the party to cast resurrection on the fallen character but the god cannot resurrect directly itself.
Has anyone dealt with this in their pathfinder experience? I am also happy to get the varied opinions on the matter. This is something I really want to happen but if it might get to broken or just not fit the world I need to know.
So I always use my own world rather than a precanned one so I can modify it however I want. I don't know how it would fit in Golarion.
Thank all of you wonderful people in advance.As long as you are consistent and fair I don't see any problems. I have used both of the aforementioned things in campaigns.
Using deities is a dangerous business. A balance must be struck between a deity doing too much and doing too little. If the deities do too much, players may feel that their actions have little consequence since matters are handled by divine powers.
If the deities do too little or punish PCs too often(refuse to answer commune spells, revoke clerical abilities for minor infractions, etc.) players that play divine casters may feel cheated.
It is important to adapt to the tone of a campaign. If most of the party is playing divine caster PCs, religion will become more of an issue, though that does not necessarily mean divine beings will show themselves. If mythic abilities are used (mythic tiers), or high level play with planar travel, it is possible for the PCs to run across divine beings on a more direct basis from time to time.
The following is how I tend to deal with divine boons -
As for resurrection, it may be used as a reward for a job well done (if PC party succeeds in defeating the big bad evil guy), the fallen in that final battle might be resurrected. If they do not succeed, then no boon. If a deity sets a task, it is likely that an opposing divine force opposes the task. In such a limited, mortal agent warfare, it is unlikely that either deities would directly intervene. They grant clerics spells, and might even drop a dream hint of one or two useful spells to request, yet that is all. Once the dust is clear, the victor can give minor rewards to their champions. Such rewards can be limited time blessings (+1 to all saving throws for a week), a permanent boost of some sort (a free campaign trait, or +1 to one of the character's stats), or an affect similar to a spell to reverse some condition (remove curse, resurrection, regeneration). Unless you want the game to go over the top, such boons should be extremely rare - twice a lifetime is enough for any mortal. If you run a mythic, extraplanar campaign with high level and high stat PCs, anything goes.
The reason I do this is to make the PC's actions important. If they succeed, they get a good carrot reward. If they fail, the big bad evil guy becomes even more of a challenge than before since they receive boons for their success. This ups the ante and makes the actions of the players important.
The only divine caster in the party is a druid so I don't have to deal with PC clerics or paladins. Closest I have is a holy assassin.
I am running a mythic game that will hit level 20, they should be level 20 for the final encounter. The final boss is Tar-Baphon. If you don't know who that he was a powerful wizard. Powerful enough that it was the God Aroden who killed him. Centuries later Tar-Baphon came back as a lich and he was a major threat. He killed Azlanti, Arodens Herald. It was a fluke that trapped him in his own home, a wish used in battle backfired against a artifact and killed him. while he was regenerating his home was sealed. This is my parties bad guy.
Pharasma and Iomedea are going to be big in this one and they are invested in this. A few other Deites are going to be involved but that is due to the players. In no way do I want to lavish boon on them but having them met these Deities and potentially getting something to help them in this rather epic quest really appeals to me. I want the party to finish this not the Deities, they can help a little though I am completely cool with that. In my opinion the Gods are busy people they can help out but they have stuff to do. That is what mortals are for. Clerics and Paladins enact their Deities will to the best of their abilities. The main boon will be the assistance of the followers of these Deities but I sort of want to do a little more.
I now I have to be carful with this but I really want to try it but since I have so little experience in this wonderful game I asked the message boards which have been immensely helpful.
My party got TPK'd because a goddess intervened. A good goddess that was trying to help us.
My party got TPK'd because a goddess intervened. A good goddess that was trying to help us.
I am curious what happened?
My party got TPK'd because a goddess intervened. A good goddess that was trying to help us.I am curious what happened?
In the story arc of a two-year campaign, a powerful succubus kidnapped our rogue. Previously in the campaign, the rogue had absorbed a part of her power that, when extracted, takes the form of a demonseed, a highly explosive gem filled with demonic energy. The succubus wanted to extract the demonseed and absorb its power, which would transform her into a demigoddess powerful enough to take over the frontier. After taking out her minions and traps designed to stall for time, we arrived at the ritual chamber. After a chaotic battle, I pulled off a successful Xanatos Gambit in order to force the succubus to release the rogue. Though the succubus went missing, we had the situation completely in our control.
While we were still in the ritual chamber with the succubus at large, the goddess Sarenrae bestowed a blessing on our rogue, extracting the demonseed supposedly to save his life. The succubus then appeared and made a desperate grab for the demonseed. Our druid tried to snatch it, but died instantly from Constitution damage when she touched it. The only one in position to do anything, our pactbinder had two choices: risk the succubus gaining demigodhood or destroy the demonseed. She choose the latter, causing a massive explosion that obliterated everyone and everything in a mile radius. Because of a clone, I was the only survivor.
Through divine intervention, the DM accidentally created a situation where the Big Bad wins or we all die. There was yelling and hurt feelings. The two-year campaign ended.
My party got TPK'd because a goddess intervened. A good goddess that was trying to help us.I am curious what happened?
In the story arc of a two-year campaign, a powerful succubus kidnapped our rogue. Previously in the campaign, the rogue had absorbed a part of her power that, when extracted, takes the form of a demonseed, a highly explosive gem filled with demonic energy. The succubus wanted to extract the demonseed and absorb its power, which would transform her into a demigoddess powerful enough to take over the frontier. After taking out her minions and traps designed to stall for time, we arrived at the ritual chamber. After a chaotic battle, I pulled off a successful Xanatos Gambit in order to force the succubus to release the rogue. Though the succubus went missing, we had the situation completely in our control.
While we were still in the ritual chamber with the succubus at large, the goddess Sarenrae bestowed a blessing on our rogue, extracting the demonseed supposedly to save his life. The succubus then appeared and made a desperate grab for the demonseed. Our druid tried to snatch it, but died instantly from Constitution damage when she touched it. The only one in position to do anything, our pactbinder had two choices: risk the succubus gaining demigodhood or destroy the demonseed. She choose the latter, causing a massive explosion that obliterated everyone and everything in a mile radius. Because of a clone, I was the only survivor.
Through divine intervention, the DM accidentally created a situation where the Big Bad wins or we all die. There was yelling and hurt feelings. The two-year campaign ended.
Wow just wow. I would have been a little aggravated at that too. in no way do I want the Deities I want to use to interfere with combat unless the PCs somehow arrange it.
It also did not help that most of the group really disliked the rogue's player and his character because of his disruptive behavior in and out of the game. So everyone dying because a god tried to save his life struck some members of the group as a massive insult. The GM honestly did not expect this to happen. He thought we were going to nuke the succubus, but we had no idea how many hitpoints the succubus had left. Divine intervention was just a shortsighted decision that cost the game.
I personally believe that a GM should make any act of god as subtle as possible. At the very least, don't explicitly describe it as a divine act. It helps keep the gods mysterious while ensuring they won't disrupt the game in a way that you did not anticipate. I even recommend this for mythic games.
Consider Clash of the Titans. Even though the entire plot revolved around divine politics, the gods very rarely directly interacted with the main characters. The only time a god directly spoke to mortals was when Thetis interrupted Andromeda's wedding. From the perspective of the main characters, all of the acts of the gods just kind of happen without any deity explaining their actions. Perseus "conveniently" finds magical weapons and armor and a robotic owl. He "conveniently" feels refreshed just in time for the big battle against the Kraken.
I'm not even running a mythic campaign and now my players believe the gods are guiding them. A lot of their adventures involved taking down villains pretending or trying to achieve "godhood." Now the PCs believe the gods are slowly guiding them down a path of putting down false gods. They now have a long term goal of taking on Razmir himself.
Speaking of deities has anyone converted deities and demigods rules to pathfinder before I go doing it myself?
well on the up side I have months before I had planned for it to happen so I have a little time to think about it. Those in my group I mentioned this idea to didn't immediately object. They are such a good group as I learn.
Like I said I don't want the Deities to interfere in combat. The party must be able to win on their own. It is my understanding in the Golarion universe Deities cannot directly interfere and I want to keep with this. But I have two Deities very invested in this completion of this Quest and two players that have sworn on Deities that they would do certain things. An oath sworn to a Deity shouldn't be said lightly and since I have the opportunity to play with the Divine a little I really want to.
It's on your players to succeed or fail in their oaths. My paladin may swear on Iomedae to complete a mission, but I don't expect the goddess to bail my ass if things go south. It's MY job to be the hero, not hers.
You might want to read on things such Faiths of the Inner Sea, Inner Sea Gods, for guidelines on how to handle the dieties in a campaign.
I will read though those, they are on my list but the list is long. And the Gods are not going to bail them out, I want the group to succeed on their own. I really do. The ways they approach a problem are never what I expect and I have grown to really enjoy that so I do not way to take ways from our enjoyment. The way things are just adding up to me it could be fun to met them once. It might be my inexperience talking but I really want to do it and I want to give them some sort of boon I just don't want to over do it and break my game. For the most part everyone says use caution and don't exclude anyone.
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I'd say yes as long as it doesn't unbalance the party. If everyone is swearing oaths to the gods and everyone gets boons than that is great. However if you have an atheist in the corner he/she shouldn't feel cheated out of a boon.
Really? You don't think atheism (not an inability to settle on a patron in particular, but the idea that there are no higher powers whatsoever) in a world where the divine actively grant powers to select individuals on a regular, very visible basis is a little...silly? I mean, he's talking about MEETING the deities. How can you, in the very face of the divine, sit back and go "Nope, none for me thanks,"?
Really? You don't think atheism (not an inability to settle on a patron in particular, but the idea that there are no higher powers whatsoever) in a world where the divine actively grant powers to select individuals on a regular, very visible basis is a little...silly? I mean, he's talking about MEETING the deities. How can you, in the very face of the divine, sit back and go "Nope, none for me thanks,"?
I'd say yes as long as it doesn't unbalance the party. If everyone is swearing oaths to the gods and everyone gets boons than that is great. However if you have an atheist in the corner he/she shouldn't feel cheated out of a boon.
It could happen, hard to deny the existence of the Gods when the cleric and paladins get powers from them and the commune spell exists. Lucky me no one in my group has made that. But with the death of Aroden people could argue that they are super powerful people and not Deities.
Remember that the game is about the PCs and not the 'gods'. This was a very hard lesson for me to learn and once wrecked my game.
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Is it reasonable to met the Gods in pathfinder and get boon from them if you are doing things for them?
Pathfinder is a game system, not a setting, but regardless, when you run, it's your setting. If you want the gods to grant boons and meddle in mortal affairs, they do. If not, they don't.
Really? You don't think atheism (not an inability to settle on a patron in particular, but the idea that there are no higher powers whatsoever) in a world where the divine actively grant powers to select individuals on a regular, very visible basis is a little...silly? I mean, he's talking about MEETING the deities. How can you, in the very face of the divine, sit back and go "Nope, none for me thanks,"?
I'd say yes as long as it doesn't unbalance the party. If everyone is swearing oaths to the gods and everyone gets boons than that is great. However if you have an atheist in the corner he/she shouldn't feel cheated out of a boon.
Apostate then, one who acknowledges the existence of the gods, but chooses not to suck up to them.
Look to the ongoing topics about Rituals and Invocations. If you use my new concept of a Mental Inventory, these oaths can have short term game effects while neither outshining clerics or allowing spamming the concept. I'll start posting the links to the other topics.
Go to Invocations
Go to Rituals
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The benefit to being an atheist or an apostate is you don't have to follow behavioral guidelines set forth by an authority figure. Sure, the others might get boons, but they have to follow said deity's rules.
This was a brief discussion I was part of in another thread and I think it holds true here, as well. Your "boon" is being your own master.
Look to the ongoing topics about Rituals and Invocations. If you use my new concept of a Mental Inventory, these oaths can have short term game effects while neither outshining clerics or allowing spamming the concept. I'll start posting the links to the other topics.
Go to Invocations
Go to Rituals
the ritual thing is really cool but not a direction I intend to go with this particular campaign.
The benefit to being an atheist or an apostate is you don't have to follow behavioral guidelines set forth by an authority figure. Sure, the others might get boons, but they have to follow said deity's rules.
This was a brief discussion I was part of in another thread and I think it holds true here, as well. Your "boon" is being your own master.
Da'ath I found that thread is your idea is brilliant. I to feel it was something I should have thought about and I fear I am about to add more work for myself if my group is interested.
And not having to adhere to a Deities rules is a boon to its self but all my players follow one deity or another. Even the Goblin though I fear he may try to end his adventuring career by challenging a Goblin Deity and trying to ascend to Godhood that way. I really hope he was joking cause I would have no idea how to handle that.
Besides the Goblin who knows the Gods exist but I don't think will worship I have very devout ranger/rouge/holy assassin (odd I know but it is for story reasons) of Iomedea, a Druid who worships Gozhra, a sorcerer who revers Desna and was saves and raised by paladins of Iomedea (to the sorcerer Iomedea is the Goddess of get off my lawn a belief she is whole heartedly behind), and a wizard who swore on the names of Torag and Cayden Cailean that he would find or avenge his family and village who were captured and possibly killed. So I have a party that is fairly religious. And wow the later it gets the more I ramble.
The goblin deity might be king of the mountain. In other words, worshipers are supposed to aspire to replace the deity.
The goblin deity might be king of the mountain. In other words, worshipers are supposed to aspire to replace the deity.
That is an option and I will write it down, the goblin is a strange character and I'm not sure if he was joking. Thank you.
Da'ath I found that thread is your idea is brilliant. I to feel it was something I should have thought about and I fear I am about to add more work for myself if my group is interested.
I'm glad you liked it and hope it works out for you as it did for me if you use it. Believe me, I regularly facepalm that using the system didn't occur to me sooner as it kills two bird with one stone (divine intervention and fudging of the dice).