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Just a thread to post stuff in that may or may not be worthy of it's own thread. Somewhere to babble on the PACG, or have off-topic discussion with others who frequent this forum.

Have fun! Don't forget the forum rules!


I'll start with something to break the ice. I game in Tulsa, Oklahoma (USA, just in case you don't know where OK is - it wouldn't surprise me, we're not famous for anything really). If anyone else is around, you should say so (PM me if you don't want to post it publicly).

---

In another thread, things started to get off topic with talking about "scouting cards" (Primarily Augury and Scrying, but also Spyglass, Detect Magic, Eagle, and so on). We could continue the topic here.

I was one posting the sacrilage that scouting cards (mainly the spells) are solid, but not necessary, at least in RotR. I prefer to just wade through all the locations and encounter everything.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

You should have started it off by saying that your character is the best character, your strategy the best strategy, and that everyone else's choice of characters / strategies were and are categorically sub-par ways to play the game.


Orbis Orboros wrote:


I was one posting the sacrilage that scouting cards (mainly the spells) are solid, but not necessary, at least in RotR. I prefer to just wade through all the locations and encounter everything.

Nothing wrong with that point of view. As long as people acknowledge that Scry/Augury are solid spells, I'm happy. Individual play styles can vary, but if someone starts saying that they are bad spells or that they can't be used effectively then the knives are coming out.


Calthaer wrote:
You should have started it off by saying that your character is the best character, your strategy the best strategy, and that everyone else's choice of characters / strategies were and are categorically sub-par ways to play the game.

I hope you don't think that's actually how I feel.

I do think there are several ways to play that are sub-par, but I don't think that it's subpar just because it doesn't match my style.

I am, I'm aware, very vocal and opinionated, though, and defend my ideas to the death; which can be obnoxious, I'm sure. Sorry. Just how I am.
>.<

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
I was one posting the sacrilage that scouting cards (mainly the spells) are solid, but not necessary, at least in RotR. I prefer to just wade through all the locations and encounter everything.
Nothing wrong with that point of view. As long as people acknowledge that Scry/Augury are solid spells, I'm happy. Individual play styles can vary, but if someone starts saying that they are bad spells or that they can't be used effectively then the knives are coming out.

Careful, you're starting to sound like me and Restoration. XD

Yeah, I definitely acknowledge them as solid. Great, even. Just not my style, and I don't think you're gimping yourself by taking a different route.
EDIT: Again, based on RotR only experience.

Ha, although I probably still won't use them, I am looking forward to playing as Alahazra, the scouter of scouts. Although I probably won't play them there simply because she has built-in pseudo Detect Magic (kinda) and pseudo Eagle.


The scouting cards achieve two things for me:

1) They allow me to avoid fighting non-henchman, non-villain monsters. Which is a good strategy in the game. They are all-rsik, zero-reward cards. It also hearkens back to old-school D&D. Unlike modern games, you were best to avoid any fight you could, it was key to survivability. I enjoy getting that feeling out of a card game.

2) More often than not, they prevent battles against the villain before we have characters in place to temporarily close all other locations. I *hate* wasting resources to "beat" the villain, only to have him scurry off to another deck. And if I don't spend resources to beat him, he tales them anyway in the form of time from the blessings deck.

I consider it smart play. Not in the sense that you're stupid if you don't take them. Presumably you are instead taking resources that allow a more blunt-force approach to the game, which many people also enjoy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think scouting is fairly important with a smaller (1-3) group. When you have a lot of players, you can be reasonably sure that you can beat most encounters due to the staggering number of check bonuses you're able to hand out, allowing you to brute force through even really difficult barriers.

My best group of the game was Kyra and Seoni, and Seoni in particular had a good number of scouting spells. We combined this with Augury and Scrying spells to move the extremely difficult barriers to the bottom of the deck (or we'd do this with villains so that we could close the other locations up early/get all the boons in their location deck).

I also have no idea how we would have defeated Karzoug without being able to move him to the bottom of the deck. Encountering him 5+ times would have been awful.


Vyvyan Basterd wrote:

I *hate* wasting resources to "beat" the villain...

I consider it smart play. Not in the sense that you're stupid if you don't take them. Presumably you are instead taking resources that allow a more blunt-force approach to the game, which many people also enjoy.

This is exactly it to me. You're "wasting resources" when you use a scouting card, because you get no explore or physical reward for it. As a Divine caster, often I take Aid instead - Aid correlates to a blessing which is now free to be used to explore (yes, it's only a d6, but still). Taking Aid is KINDA like taking Haste, if you look at it like this. Kinda (Bear in mind that I'm talking Divine here, so there's a cure or two available).

Most of my characters end up being built to take out banes and then maxed out on explorations. Scouting does neither.

EDIT: Remember, I know the value in scouting - i'm just trying to explain why I don't use it. :)


Mechalibur wrote:
allowing you to brute force through even really difficult barriers.

It should probably be noted that we always make sure barriers can be handled. Our characters stock up on Tools (almost unfaillingly scrabbling over every Masterwork we find) and I value Abadar over practically every blessing in the game, including Lamashtu, excepting those who desire specific blessings for power feats of course (like RotR Kyra).

Sometimes we run into a barrier we can't handle at the moment, but it's rare. And we always have a healer nearby and can send someone else to take it out.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Ha, although I probably still won't use them, I am looking forward to playing as Alahazra, the scouter of scouts. Although I probably won't play them there simply because she has built-in pseudo Detect Magic (kinda) and pseudo Eagle.

Her stargazer ability is really amazing. She can look across all the decks and either encounter or autofail (if no one wants it) any boon. When she doesn't hit a boon at least now we know what's coming and the best guy for the job can go there. Do it all before your move and she can take whatever fight is the safest for her as her standard explore.

I'm not certain it's really "better" than the RotR route we both took of just mass exploring and not caring about what you hit, though. It's less efficient by quite a lot as you will recharge a blessing and see a monster and that's that instead of encountering it and progressing. Still a strong ability though and makes her a very safe char to play.

I just wish her first 4 feats weren't so terrible :(. Other than the hand size none of them are worth taking but you will be forced to pick up 2 others. I guess the fire might be useful if this set has a lot of trolls. None yet though.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I am blessed with a fair number of people i play with out here in Boise, Id. (OP in Boise! If interested in details, send me a pm.). Ahem.

I find it interesting as the group dynamic changes alot where i am. I rarely sit down to play with the exact same people each game. The number of different play styles out there are outstanding. Some groups i sat with didnt want me to ever scout with Alahazra. Others wanted it all the time. Others were in the middle. Had a great time with all of them. My opinion on the topic is "if you having fun, keep it up." :)


Vyvyan Basterd wrote:
2) More often than not, they prevent battles against the villain before we have characters in place to temporarily close all other locations. I *hate* wasting resources to "beat" the villain, only to have him scurry off to another deck. And if I don't spend resources to beat him, he tales them anyway in the form of time from the blessings deck.

Conversely we almost never closed on henchmen. And if we hit the boss early we would consider failing on purpose so that we didn't lose a full deck of boons (plus you get free blessings for failing!). If we hit the boss deep in a deck we never temp closed, more free blessings! RotR is very stingy with blessings in the locations so we really wanted to push for as many as possible.

I think it's sort of a cascading effect really. If you are always closing early then you get less boons and monsters are very scary since you are undergeared. This then leads you to always try to close early in later decks as well because hitting big monsters may hurt, etc, etc.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
allowing you to brute force through even really difficult barriers.

It should probably be noted that we always make sure barriers can be handled. Our characters stock up on Tools (almost unfaillingly scrabbling over every Masterwork we find) and I value Abadar over practically every blessing in the game, including Lamashtu, excepting those who desire specific blessings for power feats of course (like RotR Kyra).

Sometimes we run into a barrier we can't handle at the moment, but it's rare. And we always have a healer nearby and can send someone else to take it out.

Exactly, it's easier to handle when you have more people. It makes you more likely to have the tools or blessings to deal with barriers. With only a few people (and kind of bad luck finding the boons we want), being able to send them to the bottom is extremely useful.


Mechalibur wrote:
Exactly, it's easier to handle when you have more people. It makes you more likely to have the tools or blessings to deal with barriers. With only a few people (and kind of bad luck finding the boons we want), being able to send them to the bottom is extremely useful.

I still think it applies to 2 man though I will grant that with Mer as my partner that did help a lot. She could take almost any barrier and if she hit something she couldn't deal with she could just evade. If you have no strong dex class at all I'm not sure what you do other than both run masterwork tools and hope it works out.

I had to take everything to the face since I couldn't evade and didn't scout (Mer would scout for me with spyglasses sometimes if he was feeling generous). But masterwork thieves tools are extremely reliable up until deck 6. In many cases barrier fails are either a monster which I had no trouble with, or damage which I also had no trouble with so it wasn't too scary to just explore into them. If it was one that shuffled back in I would just leave and Mer would come do that deck for a while until I got my tools back online.

It's not that I hate scouting. I love spyglasses. I think a spell slot is just way too important to waste on scouting with Kyra that only gets 5 spells max. Item slots cannot be used to generate explores and most of the +check items are extremely limited affecting only one check you may or may not even encounter all scenario. So item slots are definitely worth using for scouting. (Though not Kyra's...she only gets 2 max so there really isn't room after tools and some of the great loot items.)


Blanket statement presented as fact but is actually a call for discussion: Ally cards in RotR are overall terrible. One should never spend a card feat on an Ally slot as long as you have Blessing slot feats available. Obviously this is excluding any character that is based around Ally cards and has a bunch of supporting powers.

There were a few good Ally cards. The healer guy from the base set was my one and only ally for Kyra for the entire game. Eagles are nice. The shamany guy is cool. Some of the fighting types are ok...But regardless they are just what you use to fill the deck slots you were given at level 1. There isn't really a call to get an Ally slot when you could get a Blessing slot.

Ally cards are just really bad Blessing cards. They generally let you explore and give a smallish bonus on one specific skill. Blessings let you explore and give you a good bonus on any skill and a huge bonus on a specific skill. Plus they have global range and can help your friends.

Does anyone disagree? Ally cards in RotR never impressed me. We would open each new set, read them over, and go "meh" and not worry about whether we got them or not.

S&S seems to have made Ally cards a bit better. The parrot, for example, has an ability that is hard to get otherwise. It seems like they really rethought Ally cards in general.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
DirkSJ wrote:
And if we hit the boss early we would consider failing on purpose so that we didn't lose a full deck of boons (plus you get free blessings for failing!).

Since those blessings come from the blessing deck and not the box, I would hardly call them "free" when you fail. It seems like a pretty risky move to me, especially if you're trying to get as many boons from the locations as possible before time runs out.


Mechalibur wrote:
Exactly, it's easier to handle when you have more people. It makes you more likely to have the tools or blessings to deal with barriers. With only a few people (and kind of bad luck finding the boons we want), being able to send them to the bottom is extremely useful.

Uh, like 95% of my play experience is in two or three character games...

DirkSJ wrote:

Conversely we almost never closed on henchmen. And if we hit the boss early we would consider failing on purpose so that we didn't lose a full deck of boons (plus you get free blessings for failing!). If we hit the boss deep in a deck we never temp closed, more free blessings! RotR is very stingy with blessings in the locations so we really wanted to push for as many as possible.

I think it's sort of a cascading effect really. If you are always closing early then you get less boons and monsters are very scary since you are undergeared. This then leads you to always try to close early in later decks as well because hitting big monsters may hurt, etc, etc.

When I read this, I was all, "Man, Dirk, we seem to think alike. We should figure out a way to play together sometime!"

...

And then I saw this:

DirkSJ wrote:

Blanket statement presented as fact but is actually a call for discussion: Ally cards in RotR are overall terrible. One should never spend a card feat on an Ally slot as long as you have Blessing slot feats available. Obviously this is excluding any character that is based around Ally cards and has a bunch of supporting powers.

There were a few good Ally cards. The healer guy from the base set was my one and only ally for Kyra for the entire game. Eagles are nice. The shamany guy is cool. Some of the fighting types are ok...But regardless they are just what you use to fill the deck slots you were given at level 1. There isn't really a call to get an Ally slot when you could get a Blessing slot.

Ally cards are just really bad Blessing cards. They generally let you explore and give a smallish bonus on one specific skill. Blessings let you explore and give you a good bonus on any skill and a huge bonus on a specific skill. Plus they have global range and can help your friends.

Does anyone disagree? Ally cards in RotR never impressed me. We would open each new set, read them over, and go "meh" and not worry about whether we got them or not.

S&S seems to have made Ally cards a bit better. The parrot, for example, has an ability that is hard to get otherwise. It seems like they really rethought Ally cards in general.

And now I must amend to, "play alike" because I feel very differently.

Now, if we look at, oh, 90% of all the allies, you may be right. Take the blessings. But I find there are a lot of allies that are better than blessings (and let's not even get into the Lini's and how they want allies).

I would take another Poog over another blessing any day.

All that being said, I like a more or less even split.

Allies have two things going for them: unique abilities and recharges. One of my favorites is the Black Arrow Ranger. He covers three different skills, gives you a d6+1 to them (which I prefer over d8 and rate pretty much the same as a d10 even though they're different) and most of all he recharges. Now, you can't help someone else, and you can't help any check, but he's still really solid. I like him on anyone who uses ranged combat or wants a boost in dex on occasion (you'll explore most of the time anyway). I REALLY like him with Lems. As for unique abilities, look at just the healing part of Poog, for instance: Instead of choosing between add a die or explore, you have cure someone or explore. Flexability is a great thing. There are other really cool allies too. Have you ever played Ilsori Gandethis on Merisiel? Match made in heaven. They should be wed. Or RotR Lini and a Cat or Eagle. Awesomeness.

I do get what you're saying. Allies that discard to help one skill, or don't let you explore, or banish themselves, etc are really bad compared to blessings. But I find both have a spot. Sometimes I want more blessings, sometimes more allies, but certainly not "Ally card feats are mostly inferior to blessings."


pluvia33 wrote:
DirkSJ wrote:
And if we hit the boss early we would consider failing on purpose so that we didn't lose a full deck of boons (plus you get free blessings for failing!).
Since those blessings come from the blessing deck and not the box, I would hardly call them "free" when you fail. It seems like a pretty risky move to me, especially if you're trying to get as many boons from the locations as possible before time runs out.

We do it all the time - but we try to minimize things. We evade where possible (instead of failing; although we rarely keep evade cards) and we try to temp close. The extra blessings are a nice bonus, not the goal for us.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I will hop into the chat thread. BTW, I play in Lexington, Kentucky. I also have all the class decks and the S&S character add-on from Gen Con so I can probably answer questions about the content of those if anyone asks.

I agree that a lot of early game allies are underwhelming. +d10 to stealth or discard to explore, you're right, a blessing is better. But later allies do other things (who doesn't love Poog?) and many of them recharge for their skill boost, which makes them conditionally better than blessings in their own circumstances. They help with deck cycling without causing damage.

For example, I'm really liking Parrot on S&S Lini. Parrot is "bury to reroll a check if you fail by less than 4/discard to explore." Well with Lini's ability to shuffle instead of bury, Parrot becomes a great safety net for when the dice gods get frisky. Plus basically all animals on S&S Lini are "shuffle into deck to explore" which is fantastic.

You can also play an ally when a blessing has already been played.

Save blessing slot picks for after deck 3 starts so you can fill them with the exact ones you want. That's how I got my Kyra up to 5 Sarenraes.


ryric wrote:
Save blessing slot picks for after deck 3 starts so you can fill them with the exact ones you want. That's how I got my Kyra up to 5 Sarenraes.

Clever.

...

I always forget this rule and reach for basics.
>.<


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Vyvyan Basterd wrote:

I *hate* wasting resources to "beat" the villain...

I consider it smart play. Not in the sense that you're stupid if you don't take them. Presumably you are instead taking resources that allow a more blunt-force approach to the game, which many people also enjoy.

This is exactly it to me. You're "wasting resources" when you use a scouting card, because you get no explore or physical reward for it. As a Divine caster, often I take Aid instead - Aid correlates to a blessing which is now free to be used to explore (yes, it's only a d6, but still). Taking Aid is KINDA like taking Haste, if you look at it like this. Kinda (Bear in mind that I'm talking Divine here, so there's a cure or two available).

Most of my characters end up being built to take out banes and then maxed out on explorations. Scouting does neither.

EDIT: Remember, I know the value in scouting - i'm just trying to explain why I don't use it. :)

I play almost exclusively 6-player games, so that might be the difference, but I don't know how you can say that you're 'wasting resources' with scouting. I feel like I have the equivalent of multiple explores each time I use one.

Effectively, every time you augury or scry for monsters, every non-henchman/villain monster you find is not only a free explore, but a free win, since you never have to fight him (barring the location being shuffled). Since , ideally, you should only be doing these scouts in bane-heavy locations (Forest, Waterfront, anything with Wrath in the name, etc) the scout spells tend to be all upside. This works for 2 reasons: 1) You're more likely to pull multiple monsters, increasing its value and 2) If you do hit the Henchman or Villain, you can comfortably put them on top, effectively saving you multiple explores you would've used digging for them.
Well, that's my 2 cents. Knowing my success rate, it may not be better than what others have said, but Augury and Scrying are probably my favorite cards in the game, so I wanted to clarify why I felt they were so good.

Re: Allies: I mostly agree with Orbis here. The good allies (Poog, Father Z, Shaman, Eagle, etc.) are so good that they make the ally slot worth it. That being said, there are so few of them that you often end up with a lot of fill-in slots going to the mid-level stuff (at least until you start filling those slots with BARs instead). Honestly, from what I've seen of S&S, I haven't noted any true game changers, like a Father Z or Poog, but the minimum standard does seem higher at least.

Edit: Orbis, I just read your comments in the other thread. I'm now 100% sure it's just a party-size difference. With this many locations, you really do need to close 2-3 early on, or you just run out of time. IN those cases, Scrying really is fantastic, since it will often cut 2+ explorations out of a deck that you already wanted to close ASAP. In a 2-4 player game, where you only need to explore twice a turn to explore everything in the world, you can afford to plow through every card with no regard for time.


Lots of Allies recharged actually. But in general, yes, they are ways to help you explore


ryric wrote:
Save blessing slot picks for after deck 3 starts so you can fill them with the exact ones you want. That's how I got my Kyra up to 5 Sarenraes.

It's a good strategy, and not just with blessings, but it seems like it will be much, much harder to pull off in Skull and Shackles. Blessings are far more plentiful (I am through 7 games and and already have about 17 non-BoG's for my four man party. My Oloch already has 3 or 4 Goroum's) and the plunder mechanic makes it more difficult to get none of any type of boon.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Orbis Orboros wrote:
pluvia33 wrote:
DirkSJ wrote:
And if we hit the boss early we would consider failing on purpose so that we didn't lose a full deck of boons (plus you get free blessings for failing!).
Since those blessings come from the blessing deck and not the box, I would hardly call them "free" when you fail. It seems like a pretty risky move to me, especially if you're trying to get as many boons from the locations as possible before time runs out.
We do it all the time - but we try to minimize things. We evade where possible (instead of failing; although we rarely keep evade cards) and we try to temp close. The extra blessings are a nice bonus, not the goal for us.

Yeah, I'd figured most people would still try to temp close, but the emphases on "free blessings" gave me the impression that the group purposely wouldn't temp close and made me question if Dirk was actually taking the blessings from the deck when failing. I could be wrong, but it's just the feeling I got from the statement.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think several of these conversations ("Are allies good?", "should you use scry/augury?") are obsessing over minutia, and miss the larger issue. Can you get through the location deck without having to discard cards? That's one of the fundamental issues of the game.

How do you solve that problem? Harsk and lini recharge animal allies. Ezren, Seoni and Lem cast haste. Character like Kyra put blessings back on top. Other characters discard cards and then use staff of minor healing/cure/etc. to reshuffle their deck. Various casters use scry/augury to manipulate the decks to avoid banes.

All of these strategies work. Which one is most effective depends on your party size, composition and card distribution, and blanket statements of principle ("allies suck", "augury is a waster card slot", etc.) invariably breakdown in specific circumstances.

Moving forward, it may be more productive for us to stress "this is how I do things, and it works amazingly rather," rather than, "I don't play this way, because it sucks." (note: I am guilt of this as anyone. Looking at you Seltyiel)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
ryric wrote:
Save blessing slot picks for after deck 3 starts so you can fill them with the exact ones you want. That's how I got my Kyra up to 5 Sarenraes.

It's a good strategy, and not just with blessings, but it seems like it will be much, much harder to pull off in Skull and Shackles. Blessings are far more plentiful (I am through 7 games and and already have about 17 non-BoG's for my four man party. My Oloch already has 3 or 4 Goroum's) and the plunder mechanic makes it mur difficult to get none of any type of boon.

That's very true in Skull&Shackles. My girlfriend and I are already tossing away "real" blessings when we rebuild. Though blessings are not available for plunder.

I definitely like the "double your plunder" scenarios compared to the "everyone gets a free whatever" scenarios.

I am hoping to use the trick to snag the skill gems after AD3 starts if possible, and if we haven't gotten them by then. So far the only one our Feiya/Lini team has seen is the strength one, so yeah. My solo game with Jirelle has already found the Dex one though.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Also, I'd like to say thanks for making this thread. I get the feeling I'm going to be spending a lot of time here...


isaic16 wrote:
Edit: Orbis, I just read your comments in the other thread. I'm now 100% sure it's just a party-size difference. With this many locations, you really do need to close 2-3 early on, or you just run out of time. IN those cases, Scrying really is fantastic, since it will often cut 2+ explorations out of a deck that you already wanted to close ASAP. In a 2-4 player game, where you only need to explore twice a turn to explore everything in the world, you can afford to plow through every card with no regard for time.

It probably is. I detest 6 player games, and I dislike 5 player games.

As much as possible, I play 2, 3, or 4 player games. I think the game is just perfect at 3 players, it really shines there to me.

Although, it should be noted that we add extra locations frequently... We've done 8 locations before, but nothing like the insanity of 6 player games (where you get fewer turns per player on top of the high number of locations).

isaic16 wrote:
Also, I'd like to say thanks for making this thread. I get the feeling I'm going to be spending a lot of time here...

I'm sure I will too. I don't know why I waited so long to broach the topic of such a topic (lol); I'd wanted one of these for a while now.


DirkSJ wrote:
Conversely we almost never closed on henchmen. And if we hit the boss early we would consider failing on purpose so that we didn't lose a full deck of boons (plus you get free blessings for failing!).

We *never* boon-hunt. The majority of boons do not seem worthwhile to dig for them too heavily. Sure, we occasionally have an "aww, wish I got that" moment, but then our characters perform just fine without that boon.

Maybe it's because the two of us play three characters each. Party size coudl be a factor.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Orbis Orboros wrote:
ryric wrote:
Save blessing slot picks for after deck 3 starts so you can fill them with the exact ones you want. That's how I got my Kyra up to 5 Sarenraes.

Clever.

...

I always forget this rule and reach for basics.
>.<

A month or so ago, the group that Hawkmoon & I run had just finished AD4. People wanted Allies, but we looked at AD2 and below and didn't see anything we wanted - they all wanted AD3.

So what we did was chose allies that had a banish power (e.g., Mayor Kendra), used those during scenario 5.1, and made sure we didn't pick up any allies in the process.

Then, lacking enough allies to rebuild our decks (however did that happen?!) we picked out those AD3 guys that we really wanted, IIRC Giant Badger and Vale Temros.


Vyvyan Basterd wrote:
Maybe it's because the two of us play three characters each. Party size coudl be a factor.

It would be with me.

I like to try and focus on an individual character, though. Optimize them for how I want to play them, nurture them, get attached to them. This increases the desire to get certain cards for them.

If I had 3 characters in a game of 6 characters? Eh, big deal, no Eagle for Lini. We still kick butt.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I guess we have different experiences then. Dealing with barriers has been the most difficult part of RotRL for me. Probably doesn't help that Blessings of Abadar and Masterwork Tools like to hide from me.

Edit: I just realized I play the game a bit differently though, that probably has a lot to do with it (for example, I usually play so blessings don't stack, and I tend to shy away from the really powerful characters like Lini or Lem who can add bonuses to everything)


Mechalibur wrote:
I guess we have different experiences then. Dealing with barriers has been the most difficult part of RotRL for me.

No, I totally agree. It's just still not that big of a problem for me usually.

Of course, we tend to optimize very well. Not in skill stats, per se, but strategy. If we brought three characters that beat face with weapons and that's all they do, we'd be disappointed in ourselves for not synergizing. We typically have a support character (at least partially supportive) that can help out and heal if things go wrong.

But, once again, we just don't have that much trouble with anything. Barriers are the hardest, but that's not saying enough. It might be better to say that barriers are the least easy to deal with. Lol.

Mechalibur wrote:
Probably doesn't help that Blessings of Abadar and Masterwork Tools like to hide from me.

This would make a big difference indeed...

Staff of Heaven and Earth can help in that case. It's horribly inefficient, but it gets the job done beter than any other card.

Mechalibur wrote:
Edit: I just realized I play the game a bit differently though, that probably has a lot to do with it (for example, I usually play so blessings don't stack, and I tend to shy away from the really powerful characters like Lini or Lem who can add bonuses to everything)

Another big difference. That would indeed do it. (I raised the difficulty by altering bane ratios, so I didn't alter blessings in our games.)

And I understand calling Lini super, but Lem? Really? I like him and he's good, but...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orbis Orboros wrote:
And I understand calling Lini super, but Lem? Really? I like him and he's good, but...

Arcane and Divine spells, hand size 6, and able to add 1d4+X to any check with a recharge. You play Lini, you know how powerful that is :P


Orbis Orboros wrote:

Now, if we look at, oh, 90% of all the allies, you may be right. Take the blessings. But I find there are a lot of allies that are better than blessings (and let's not even get into the Lini's and how they want allies).

I would take another Poog over another blessing any day.

All that being said, I like a more or less even split.
<snip rest to save space>

I did say obviously excluding anyone that has is Ally based (e.g. Lini). :) Ezren too, but simply because he can't have them.

I do agree that some Allies are good. But there are so few good ones that you pretty much put them in the Ally slots you started with at level 1 and you are set to go. You get to have all the really good ones already, pretty much, so why add another slot there when you could add another Blessing?

I didn't have Poog :(. So I don't know what he does. I bought all my RotR from other vendors and signed up for subcrip for S&S.

isaic16 wrote:
2) If you do hit the Henchman or Villain, you can comfortably put them on top, effectively saving you multiple explores you would've used digging for them.

On TOP? Sacrilege :). All boons must be obtained! On top loses some boons! I suppose in your 6 man party though scrying them to the top is probably required. You still only have 30 turns to win and you have a lot more locations to go through. I have not played full 6 man.

pluvia33 wrote:
Yeah, I'd figured most people would still try to temp close, but the emphases on "free blessings" gave me the impression that the group purposely wouldn't temp close and made me question if Dirk was actually taking the blessings from the deck when failing. I could be wrong, but it's just the feeling I got from the statement.

Yes we did take them from the blessings deck. But with a 2 man group it's only 3 turns lost and we rarely were even close to running out of time with our explore-heavy strategy. If you aren't in danger of running out of time then they are still "free".

It's sort of like what the expert MTG players say when talking about life points. It's a resource. The only life point that matters (and the only card that matters in the blessings deck) is the last one. Yes the given scenario impacts things a lot (e.g. if some location/etc can burn the blessings deck or you are playing vs red in MTG) but as a general rule it stands.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
Edit: I just realized I play the game a bit differently though, that probably has a lot to do with it (for example, I usually play so blessings don't stack, and I tend to shy away from the really powerful characters like Lini or Lem who can add bonuses to everything)
Another big difference. That would indeed do it. (I raised the difficulty by altering bane ratios, so I didn't alter blessings in our games.

Try our version: Blessings only work on yourself.

We totally did that on purpose to raise the challenge and not because we completely failed at understanding they were global range and helped friends too. Honest. I swear. Really my fingers are not crossed you're just seeing things.

S&S with global/multiple char blessings has been a cake walk. We may have to go back to our old way.


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Orbis Orboros wrote:
isaic16 wrote:
Edit: Orbis, I just read your comments in the other thread. I'm now 100% sure it's just a party-size difference. With this many locations, you really do need to close 2-3 early on, or you just run out of time. IN those cases, Scrying really is fantastic, since it will often cut 2+ explorations out of a deck that you already wanted to close ASAP. In a 2-4 player game, where you only need to explore twice a turn to explore everything in the world, you can afford to plow through every card with no regard for time.

It probably is. I detest 6 player games, and I dislike 5 player games.

As much as possible, I play 2, 3, or 4 player games. I think the game is just perfect at 3 players, it really shines there to me.

Although, it should be noted that we add extra locations frequently... We've done 8 locations before, but nothing like the insanity of 6 player games (where you get fewer turns per player on top of the high number of locations).

isaic16 wrote:
Also, I'd like to say thanks for making this thread. I get the feeling I'm going to be spending a lot of time here...
I'm sure I will too. I don't know why I waited so long to broach the topic of such a topic (lol); I'd wanted one of these for a while now.

Makes sense. We actually pay 3 characters each, so there's no waiting for 5 people, which makes it a lot more palatable. With only 3 or 4, it feels like the blessing deck is almost pointless, since there's so little chance of running up against it.


isaic16 wrote:
Makes sense. We actually pay 3 characters each, so there's no waiting for 5 people, which makes it a lot more palatable. With only 3 or 4, it feels like the blessing deck is almost pointless, since there's so little chance of running up against it.

At 6 you only get 5 turns per char...I'm not sure I would like that. You may or may not even get any or your good cards, can't get a good cycle going, etc. Must be really different.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
DirkSJ wrote:

Blanket statement presented as fact but is actually a call for discussion: Ally cards in RotR are overall terrible. One should never spend a card feat on an Ally slot as long as you have Blessing slot feats available. Obviously this is excluding any character that is based around Ally cards and has a bunch of supporting powers.

There were a few good Ally cards. The healer guy from the base set was my one and only ally for Kyra for the entire game. Eagles are nice. The shamany guy is cool. Some of the fighting types are ok...But regardless they are just what you use to fill the deck slots you were given at level 1. There isn't really a call to get an Ally slot when you could get a Blessing slot.

Ally cards are just really bad Blessing cards. They generally let you explore and give a smallish bonus on one specific skill. Blessings let you explore and give you a good bonus on any skill and a huge bonus on a specific skill. Plus they have global range and can help your friends.

Does anyone disagree? Ally cards in RotR never impressed me. We would open each new set, read them over, and go "meh" and not worry about whether we got them or not.

S&S seems to have made Ally cards a bit better. The parrot, for example, has an ability that is hard to get otherwise. It seems like they really rethought Ally cards in general.

Yeah. I'd mostly agree with that. There were a couple of Allies that I enjoyed (Gandethus was just fun for the unbalanced risk/reward) but overall, we only took Allies that let us explore. And all 6 of our characters maxed out Blessings first (except Ezren, although I guess he was technically always maxed out). I ended up taking an extra Ally or two with Sajan after I maxed his items & blessings, but it wasn't worth it. Should have just thrown in a cure spell instead.


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Orbis Orboros wrote:

It probably is. I detest 6 player games, and I dislike 5 player games.

As much as possible, I play 2, 3, or 4 player games. I think the game is just perfect at 3 players, it really shines there to me.

Although, it should be noted that we add extra locations frequently... We've done 8 locations before, but nothing like the insanity of 6 player games (where you get fewer turns per player on top of the high number of locations).

Having played a few 2 player games and mostly 6 player games, I have to say that 2 players with 8 locations would be much easier to mine for boons than 6 players with 8 locations. Mainly for one reason: Curing. If your Divine caster has a Cure spell/ability they still have to get in the same location as the character they want to cure. With 5 other characters to cure, making that happen can be a challenge. Especially when the character than needs to be cured is in a location that you don't want to explore for some reason. Attempting to arrange cures just leads to wasted turns. And you don't have that many turns to waste. And there are still 4 other characters who didn't get cured this round.

With 2 players, it is easy enough to just hang out in the same locations, churning blessings and heals to burn through decks in ways that will get you killed in 6 player games. So even with the same 80 cards to burn through, you've got a ton more time to get through them.

Which of course goes back to why you (and Dirk) didn't feel scouting spells were optimal, while many players who played 6 character games felt they were indispensable.


On the "allies" discussion- as well as dice, allies are great for adding traits - particularly fire(Dragon), or adding to checks with skills you don't have and blessings would just be D4s(Mountaineer)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vyvyan Basterd wrote:
DirkSJ wrote:
Conversely we almost never closed on henchmen. And if we hit the boss early we would consider failing on purpose so that we didn't lose a full deck of boons (plus you get free blessings for failing!).

We *never* boon-hunt. The majority of boons do not seem worthwhile to dig for them too heavily. Sure, we occasionally have an "aww, wish I got that" moment, but then our characters perform just fine without that boon.

Maybe it's because the two of us play three characters each. Party size could be a factor.

Various groups out here will look at the timer on a 3-4 player game and go "we have plenty of time, lets go shopping!" we also see things like no locations closed and 10 turns remaining: "eh we will probably fail, lets get some shopping done before then". The funny part is when the latter happens and we win by the skin of our teeth anyways. =) I love shopping in ACG. Nothing like ending and having 15+ cards to choose from to upgrade with (thank you barriers)! We usually are more prone to shopping at the beginning of a new adventure deck.. We want the new shinies. ;)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Another factor is: you don't always want the games to end early. Especially in RoRL, where it was two months between expansions and expansions are only 5 scenarios that take 30 or 40 minutes each, why would we want to clear out an entire location on the first turn?

The boon hunting isn't always profitable, but to a certain extent it's about extending the length of the game. Already in a couple of S&S games we've turned over the villain on the first turn and been disappointed not because we weren't ready to fight them, but because that's five or ten minutes off the length of the game, and without playing someone who can evade you fight them or you lose 5 turns anyway. In two run throughs we still haven't dealt with the Wishing Well's mechanics, because we've never encountered a boon there.


I've been playing solitaire mostly, finishing ROTR using 6 characters. I play each scenario to win and don't usually go shopping.

The characters still ended up completely kick-ass.

I think by ensuring you get every boon you're cheapening the experience for yourselves, making an easy game almost trivial

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

My poor girlfriend was doing the Wishing Well with Feiya and managed to flub the closing check, so she had to toil through the entire location deck. I think we actually managed to run the box out of Pirate Shade Haunts.

That place is super nasty if you only have Swashbuckling weapons, such as is likely when playing Jirelle.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Isn't the Wishing Well worded such that you automatically succeed at your checks to acquire boons, not that you automatically ACQUIRE boons? Meaning you only have to take the ones you want? So you don't need a bunch of ghosts trucking around in your wake if all you found were a pile of daggers.

Not that I'd know specifically, not having a reason to scrutinize the card text yet.

Troymk1 wrote:

I've been playing solitaire mostly, finishing ROTR using 6 characters. I play each scenario to win and don't usually go shopping.

The characters still ended up completely kick-ass.
I think by ensuring you get every boon you're cheapening the experience for yourselves, making an easy game almost trivial

Spoken like someone who hasn't tried. To make the "easy game" somewhat harder, we play 6 locations for 2 players, and only very rarely temp close locations. Even doing that we played through the entire AP without even knowing many boons existed (Sihedron Ring, Ring of Elemental Protection, etc) and only ever seeing things like Sign of Wrath via Emerald Codex. Poking around the location decks is no guarantee you'll end up with OP characters. Consider also that playing a large party means you get 6 boons to choose from every time you get an end of scenario award, which might've made you more powerful in a way you hadn't thought about, because it makes it more likely you'll get something someone actually wants. Whereas with two characters there was a groan of disappointment in AP6 each time Merisiel or Kyra picked up a Shock Greatsword +2, which happened more than once (but maybe not more than twice. :D)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Troymk1 wrote:

I've been playing solitaire mostly, finishing ROTR using 6 characters. I play each scenario to win and don't usually go shopping.

The characters still ended up completely kick-ass.

I think by ensuring you get every boon you're cheapening the experience for yourselves, making an easy game almost trivial

My group played the game so that losing a scenario meant the characters die. It ensured we only went boon fishing if we were absolutely sure we'd have enough time to go through the location deck. I think in that case there was appropriate risk/reward involved.


Sarah Bull wrote:
Various groups out here will look at the timer on a 3-4 player game and go "we have plenty of time, lets go shopping!" we also see things like no locations closed and 10 turns remaining: "eh we will probably fail, lets get some shopping done before then". The funny part is when the latter happens and we win by the skin of our teeth anyways. =) I love shopping in ACG. Nothing like ending and having 15+ cards to choose from to upgrade with (thank you barriers)! We usually are more prone to shopping at the beginning of a new adventure deck.. We want the new shinies. ;)

I understand the style, certainly. In the RPG the others want every scrap of loot they can snag. When I do get to play I'm more interested in getting out there and adventuring, loot's an afterthought. While the others are haggling over our party's fee, I'm already headed out the door ready to go.

As for the blessings deck and a 6-character game, we rarely run up against the deck either. We could easily shop and still complete the adventure, we just don't.


Dave Riley wrote:
Another factor is: you don't always want the games to end early. Especially in RoRL, where it was two months between expansions and expansions are only 5 scenarios that take 30 or 40 minutes each, why would we want to clear out an entire location on the first turn?

Because we would log our cards, each choose 3 characters we personally hadn't played before, and start the AP over again with a brand new party. We hope to eventually each play both paths of each character at some point. Although with the ton of new characters in the character decks that goal has become much more lofty. :)


Mechalibur wrote:
Troymk1 wrote:

I've been playing solitaire mostly, finishing ROTR using 6 characters. I play each scenario to win and don't usually go shopping.

The characters still ended up completely kick-ass.

I think by ensuring you get every boon you're cheapening the experience for yourselves, making an easy game almost trivial

My group played the game so that losing a scenario meant the characters die. It ensured we only went boon fishing if we were absolutely sure we'd have enough time to go through the location deck. I think in that case there was appropriate risk/reward involved.

Mechalibur, I think I failed a scenario 2-3 times in the entire cycle. Sometimes via caution as I was close to losing someone and didn't let them explore aggressively. Sometimes just down to crazy luck.

I commend you on your iron-man approach however!

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