I have two conflicting rules on casting magic against submerged targets. Can you help decide which rule wins?


Rules Questions


From the aquatic rules section:

Quote:
Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

Total cover should block, but it says magical attacks are unaffected, and I assume that's referring to total cover. Right? Now for the rules from the magic section, on targeting:

Quote:

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

I have always heard people cite water as a barrier that breaks line of effect, but I don't see where in the rules there is a list of what is considered a "solid barrier." Anyone?

Since both total cover and improved cover have been cited by those rules, here are those rules as well:

Quote:

Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Improved Cover: In some cases, such as attacking a target hiding behind an arrowslit, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.

This is for a PFS game, so I'm not looking for opinions or how you'd house rule it. I'm looking for a rules citation that would be mandatory for me to follow, either way. Any pointers?

Knowing whatever you know, can you answer this: how would an arrow shot, an acid arrow spell, and a magic missile spell do against someone fully submerged under water? Thanks!


Magic section, line of effect:

Quote:
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

Water is not a solid barrier when you are in the water -- the air to water interface counts for effects that require attack rolls.

1. Arrow shot -- total cover no shot allowed.

2. Acid arrow requires an attack roll, total cover means can't be targeted spell wasted or not cast, depending on GM and when the caster realized the situation.

3. Magic missile does not require an attack roll and you have line of effect (presumably) so it hits for regular damage.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Water is not a solid barrier

Where did you get this from, though? The quote you provided doesn't mention water, so I don't see how this logically follows. Would love to see a rules quote that says water is not a solid barrier.

At least in D&D 3.5 it WAS considered solid, because there was a feat to get past that limitation. This is why I really need this spelled out for me.

I'm going to start CTRL-Fing through the FAQs.


I'd probably argue that solid = solid and liquid = liquid. Water is a liquid barrier until it freezes solid.


Solid item can grant cover. Non-solid items grant concealment. Water counts as a solid item for attacks that require an attack roll. Magical effects are otherwise unaffected except fire. No conflict as magical effects with no to hit aren't effected by the cover.


aboyd wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Water is not a solid barrier

Where did you get this from, though? The quote you provided doesn't mention water, so I don't see how this logically follows. Would love to see a rules quote that says water is not a solid barrier.

At least in D&D 3.5 it WAS considered solid, because there was a feat to get past that limitation. This is why I really need this spelled out for me.

I'm going to start CTRL-Fing through the FAQs.

Dude -- did you not read the rest of the sentence? WHEN YOU ARE IN WATER.

I mean it would be like if I quoted you as "I don't see" then claimed you were blind.

Beyond that here is the section you are looking for.

Quote:
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.

The water to air interface is a different case which is why it's called out specifically in the rules section.


So.....spear-fishing from the shore is impossible?


Abraham, I don't entirely comprehend you and you're kinda abrasive, so let's file our discussion under, "this won't end well, so shake hands, and walk away."

I'll try to make do with what the other posters are saying, and I think I've got it figured out now, thanks.

Pathfinder has set it up so that water is not classified (no rule quotes it as a "solid barrier" or not), but instead there are specific rules for handling it that trump the usual texts. I think that helps me to understand how to rule these things. Thanks all.


"Hmmmmm, I stab and I stab and I stab, but I just can't seem to strike those delicious-looking swimmy things. But wait!" Thought the cunning native, "Maybe if I wade out into .5 inches of water, then maybe I can strike at all the swimmies no problem. Including those lurking at the bottom of this three-foot underwater dropoff." And he lived happily ever after.

I think Abraham Spalding has resolved this pretty well. To me it seems pretty obvious how the rules work: full submersion = no targeting by anything that requires an attack roll or that involves fire. So spells like Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt, Sleep, Waves of Exhaustion, Phantasmal Killer, Hold Monster, Black Tentacles (targeted on the river/lake/whatever-bed), and Heat Metal will all work just fine.

However, as my previous post and story above show, this rule can be made very very silly. Why can't I shoot someone who is lurking a half inch underwater unless I put my feet into the same body of water as you so as to avoid being a "land-bound" creature? If I'm kneeling next to a lake, and you're 1.2 feet away, lurking .3 inches below the surface, why can't I Shocking Grasp you? This whole rule sounds like it should grant a form of improved concealment (allowing targeting with a miss chance) instead of total cover that says I just can't hit you at all ever.


There is a reason fishing nets became popular.

At aboyd yeah I can be abrasive at times sorry about that.

With the rules and in general sections are very specific -- if I say something is this way I'll usually have a qualifier with it and state the situation it applies in because (as we can see with the rules on liquid environments) the rules become extremely fluid very quickly with situations changing how things interact.

Basically put: Going through the water-air interface does not block line of sight (like glass) but can block line of effect for attacks that utilize attack rolls. Moving into the water (role playing wise possibly ducking your head in to look) makes things easier to see and attack.

Part of this is realistic -- it's easier to hit something in the water if you are under it instead of above it due to the way light refracts through water.

I would suggest that there is room for a homebrew feat for those that want spearfishers... At least I am unaware of one in the current rules otherwise.

Lantern Lodge

Nakteo wrote:
"Hmmmmm, I stab and I stab and I stab, but I just can't seem to strike those delicious-looking swimmy things. But wait!" Thought the cunning native, "Maybe if I wade out into .5 inches of water, then maybe I can strike at all the swimmies no problem. Including those lurking at the bottom of this three-foot underwater dropoff." And he lived happily ever after.

Except that isn't what happens. Use of the Survival Skill to collect food does not require an attack roll and is unaffected by the air/water interface.


I've had to houserule that the first 5 feet of water doesn't provide Total Cover, just Improved Cover because of how stupid the original ruling was. That solved everything.

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