Are diamonds stone?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as a favorite.

We're currently playing our weekly game and we had a funny idea about how Diamonds being treated as stone objects with regards to the Stone Shape spell.

You see, we need a 20,000gp diamond for the spell Purify (1001 Spells) and we have x4 5,000gp diamonds for other spells. Our question is: Can you use Stone Shape to smush these smaller diamonds into one big one?

Thanks for the help!


While I suppose technically yes, I'm pretty sure the game really only considers 'stone' to be stuff like rocks ... granite and such.

On an unrelated note, I'd have no issues letting you just use the 4 diamonds ... and beware of possible 'GM requires you to make a Craft (Jewelry) check to maintain the full value' shenanigans.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

@Bodzilla - I have been playing this game since 1974, and I never thought about that - dude you are brilliant (pun intended)


A large uncut diamond would be worth more than its weight in smaller uncut diamonds. OTOH, if you mash diamonds together with stone shape, perhaps there would be flaws along the joins or the colors wouldn't match.

If you tried to merge faceted diamonds together, you would probably ruin the faceting and it would have to be recut, which would leave you back with multiple smaller diamonds.

Edit: also, while you can use Stone Shape to split one stone into pieces, I'm not sure that it works the other way around.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Diamond is not stone, it's a crystal.

Wikipedia wrote:
In geology, rock is a naturally occurring solid aggregate of one or more minerals or mineraloids

A high-quality diamond is actually one gigantic molecule, it's not an aggregate of anything.

But if you think it's cool, go ahead.


Just create the spell gem shape.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If the GM allows it, then sure, fine.

But there is an equally valid argument- synthetic gems are worth less than natural ones in real life, and I do not doubt that such a trend would change in a magical setting.

So, going off of that logic, we can go back to the old arbitrary cost joke ("I got 10% off on those 5,000 gp of diamonds you asked off" "Well then, they didn't cost 5,000 gp, now did they? Go back and buy some more").

In a more realistic sense, you could argue that an artificially made gem is unsuitable for the spell. If it is a divine spell, then your otherworldly power source was annoyed you tried to get one over on them. If it is a more arcane approach, then you could argue that the natural formation in regular gems are essential for holding the spell's power, and as such a ton of small gems fused together would be like trying to brush your teeth with sand paper (since it is a random mish mash of other gem's patterns).

In the end, it is the GM's call on whether this works. Just remember- that costly spell component was put there as an intentional money sink. Carefully consider what that means for your game before making the change.

At the very least, you could impose some kind of penalty that would make natural gems more attractive (such as a caster check to not anger god/have the spell suddenly explode). This both reward their ingenuity by providing a new option, and it would force them to carefully consider whether the risk is worth the savings. Plus, it adds in a dramatic roll that can determine the course of the campaign. And heck, it even adds some flavor to your game's world. Those that can't afford to shell out the big bucks are forced to use dangerous and unreliable magic....that sound like a campaign hook in itself that could result in any number of arbitrary occurances that you want...all while going back to the old go to line:

"A wizard did it"

Sczarni

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Fun fact: the modern words "Diamond" and "Adamantine" come from the same root word, adámas ("unbreakable"), in Greek.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

To argue in an opposite direction: what is the relation of a diamond's value to it's size?

Does a 10-unit diamond cost 10x as much as a 1-unit diamond, or does it cost maybe 50x as much because 10-unit diamonds are >10x more uncommon than 1-unit diamonds?

I'd say the rarity argument (above) and the faceting argument (whew) should, for the sake of sanity, cancel each other out.

Yeah, the players have a slightly easier time gathering the component, but they're still paying the same amount of money, using a clever spellcasting to cut down on shopping time. Sounds fair to me.

The Exchange

What it comes down to is the spell is meant to be difficult to cast. The gem requirement is very expensive, so the gem is very rare and hard to get. Trivialising that with another spell defeats the purpose behind the material component.

However, it all comes down to your DM. I'm constantly amazed that people come here to ask these questions rather than just ask their own DM's. I guess DM's asking for advice in this case works, but sometimes these really seem like players trying to get backup for their idea to use against a DM's judgement.

<sigh> that was ranty, sorry.


I think gems are not stone in the classifications the game uses.

Also, Stone Shape allows you to manipulate a piece of stone. This can be a big piece (based on level), but Stone Shape works on one piece at a time does not seem to allow you to merge individual stones together.


Stone shape would not work, I'm pretty sure we've covered that. Have someone cast a Fabricate spell and you're done. Barring of course your DM simply doesn't allow you to use the multiple gems of total equal value.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Bodzilla wrote:

We're currently playing our weekly game and we had a funny idea about how Diamonds being treated as stone objects with regards to the Stone Shape spell.

You see, we need a 20,000gp diamond for the spell Purify (1001 Spells) and we have x4 5,000gp diamonds for other spells. Our question is: Can you use Stone Shape to smush these smaller diamonds into one big one?

Thanks for the help!

That's more of a Third Party ruling since that's a Third Party spell. So GM's call. I would say it can't be done, but something might be doable with a crafter with high ranks in Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft, and Craft (Jewelcrafting) to make a matrix consisting of the 4 diamonds to make it work.

Sovereign Court

cheechako wrote:

I think gems are not stone in the classifications the game uses.

I don't think the game goes into sufficient detail to clearly decide that.

cheechako wrote:


Also, Stone Shape allows you to manipulate a piece of stone. This can be a big piece (based on level), but Stone Shape works on one piece at a time does not seem to allow you to merge individual stones together.

That's indeed a RAW dealbreaker.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Diamond is not stone, it's a crystal.

Wikipedia wrote:
In geology, rock is a naturally occurring solid aggregate of one or more minerals or mineraloids

A high-quality diamond is actually one gigantic molecule, it's not an aggregate of anything.

But if you think it's cool, go ahead.

FWIW, crystals can be made up of zillions of molecules but they're not a single molecule. Diamonds in particular aren't even made up of molecules, they're simply carbon with occasional impurities coloring them.

Not that this has anything to do with the question. :)


Wrath wrote:

What it comes down to is the spell is meant to be difficult to cast. The gem requirement is very expensive, so the gem is very rare and hard to get. Trivialising that with another spell defeats the purpose behind the material component.

Trivializing the supposed limitations on spellcasting is SOP for every spellcaster I've ever seen.

The Exchange

Zhayne wrote:
Wrath wrote:

What it comes down to is the spell is meant to be difficult to cast. The gem requirement is very expensive, so the gem is very rare and hard to get. Trivialising that with another spell defeats the purpose behind the material component.

Trivializing the supposed limitations on spellcasting is SOP for every spellcaster I've ever seen.

DM's that allow it without thought are the reasons we have threads about casters equal win.


Wrath wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Wrath wrote:

What it comes down to is the spell is meant to be difficult to cast. The gem requirement is very expensive, so the gem is very rare and hard to get. Trivialising that with another spell defeats the purpose behind the material component.

Trivializing the supposed limitations on spellcasting is SOP for every spellcaster I've ever seen.
DM's that allow it without thought are the reasons we have threads about casters equal win.

Though in this particular case, multiple diamonds worth a total of 20,000 gp amount to many -more- actual carats of diamond than a single diamond; simply because the larger ones get extra value for rarity.

A DM that says, "Sure, that's a clever idea" doesn't trivialize things much, just saves them the trouble of hunting up a gem dealer and trading 4 for 1. Depends on whether the DM would rather reward thought in game play or wants to force them to travel to a particular city.


Ah. Old thread. I remember you well...

Vincent Takeda wrote:


Artificial diamond creation
what a diamond 'built' of diamond dust is atomically organized like
What a "PCD" polycrystal diamond looks like
PCD's are commonly referred to as Carbonado

The question is can the magic reorganize the powder material into a purely crystalline organization or is it limited to creating patchwork PCD's.

The answer to that question being yes or no is entirely fiat.

Same trick. Different spell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
daimaru wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

Diamond is not stone, it's a crystal.

Wikipedia wrote:
In geology, rock is a naturally occurring solid aggregate of one or more minerals or mineraloids

A high-quality diamond is actually one gigantic molecule, it's not an aggregate of anything.

But if you think it's cool, go ahead.

FWIW, crystals can be made up of zillions of molecules but they're not a single molecule. Diamonds in particular aren't even made up of molecules, they're simply carbon with occasional impurities coloring them.

Not that this has anything to do with the question. :)

A high-quality diamond is, indeed, a single giant molecule! A diamond that was "zillions of molecules" would have terrible clarity.

Wikipedia - Molecule wrote:
A molecule is an electrically neutral group of two or more atoms held together by chemical bonds.
Wikipedia - Single Crystal wrote:
A single crystal or monocrystalline solid is a material in which the crystal lattice of the entire sample is continuous and unbroken to the edges of the sample, with no grain boundaries.

In a gem-quality diamond, every atom is connected to every other atom by a network of covalent bonds.

Not exactly sure why I'm debating crystallography, but I guess it is somewhat relevant... I would agree with cheechako that gems are different than stones, for the purposes of the game.


Yup, diamonds are single atom-based constructs - they are carbon and carbon alone.

Stones are generally (always?) a combination of minerals, but diamonds are not.

In the game, I would be very careful before allowing any sort of 'gem building' to occur. The potential effects on the world economy could be devastating.


Oh, also, are we missing this part of the spell?

Stone Shape wrote:
While it's possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn't possible.

Without proper faceting (which isn't possible using the spell,) there's no way that the final diamond will be worth 20,000 gp. You'll end up with a rough diamond that still needs to be cut and polished. So I think by RAW this idea really doesn't work.

But once again, if you think it's funny, just do it anyway!


Uncut diamonds. Not exactly pretty.

http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/801/368801_090923152421_1.63_diamo nds.jpg

(Remove space in 'diamond' to see link)


Seems to me there was a magic item -- a mortar and pestle -- that would allow you to grind up valuable items of one form/material and make a paste you could transform into equally valuable items of another form or material. I thought it might have been in the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium, but I just looked and don't see it there.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Linkified for you


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Either I'm going to make my players work through a quest to get the item for an expensive spell component, or it's just nebulous thing and I just let them pay the cost and ignore the shopping part. To me 25000 gold diamond is the same whether is 10 diamonds or 1. Whether its 1 huge uncut gem, or 1 small absolutely perfect flawless gem. To me it's the gold cost that is relevant.

If something else is important I will make them quest for the object.


RumpinRufus wrote:

In a gem-quality diamond, every atom is connected to every other atom by a network of covalent bonds.

Not exactly sure why I'm debating crystallography, but I guess it is somewhat relevant... I would agree with cheechako that gems are different than stones, for the purposes of the game.

Huh. You're right. Most crystals are not single molecules so I assumed diamonds weren't either, but they're an exception.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In most cases, only the cost should really matter. Gem stones are considered full fungible, which means with access to a decent size market place, one can trade 4 5000 gp gems for a 20000g gp one.

Now, in the middle of a dungeon it does matter, and if you think you will need such a spell you should be prepared with the proper component.


lemeres wrote:
But there is an equally valid argument- synthetic gems are worth less than natural ones in real life, and I do not doubt that such a trend would change in a magical setting.

This rule LITERALLY only exists because of evil conspiracies.

No, really, take a look, and do a search on "blood diamonds" while you're at it. With current technology and understanding of minerals we could have diamond countertops instead of formica countertops at about the same price (though we wouldn't, they'd be tacky). We don't because they still provide a conduit to turn the blood of brown people into money.

Sorry, this is all a bit tangential.

Dark Archive

RumpinRufus wrote:

Oh, also, are we missing this part of the spell?

Stone Shape wrote:
While it's possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn't possible.

Without proper faceting (which isn't possible using the spell,) there's no way that the final diamond will be worth 20,000 gp. You'll end up with a rough diamond that still needs to be cut and polished. So I think by RAW this idea really doesn't work.

But once again, if you think it's funny, just do it anyway!

Nothing states that it has to be a cut diamond. Only diamond that be worth the set value.

Things like this always get weird when you start to ask value to whom? A large uncut diamond would be worth a great deal to a gem cutter (who can cut it to their own desire). But that is a level of economics that almost no RPG gets into. Gold is always worth "x" per ounce, never changing by location, time, etc..

That being said, the fact that stone shape only works on a single piece of stone at a time kills the whole idea more.

I do think that I like the Pathfinder answer of using diamond dust worth "x" instead of single gems for spells. A little simpler in the long run.


Nefreet wrote:
Fun fact: the modern words "Diamond" and "Adamantine" come from the same root word, adámas ("unbreakable"), in Greek.

Which is especially funny when you consider that, while Diamonds are hard, meaning they cannot be scratched except by another diamond, they can easily be shattered by blunt impact such as from a hammer. A "test" that used to be used to determine if a gem was really a diamond was to hit it with a hammer. Usually it would shatter and the person would conclude, since diamonds are "the hardest substance known", it wasn't a diamond. In actuality, they likely destroyed thousands of actual diamonds in this manner. So much for "unbreakable".


Happler wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

Oh, also, are we missing this part of the spell?

Stone Shape wrote:
While it's possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn't possible.

Without proper faceting (which isn't possible using the spell,) there's no way that the final diamond will be worth 20,000 gp. You'll end up with a rough diamond that still needs to be cut and polished. So I think by RAW this idea really doesn't work.

But once again, if you think it's funny, just do it anyway!

Nothing states that it has to be a cut diamond. Only diamond that be worth the set value.

Things like this always get weird when you start to ask value to whom? A large uncut diamond would be worth a great deal to a gem cutter (who can cut it to their own desire). But that is a level of economics that almost no RPG gets into. Gold is always worth "x" per ounce, never changing by location, time, etc..

That being said, the fact that stone shape only works on a single piece of stone at a time kills the whole idea more.

I do think that I like the Pathfinder answer of using diamond dust worth "x" instead of single gems for spells. A little simpler in the long run.

Real-world gem appraisal has a bunch of weird rules. Some of them make sense, like cutting and polishing so it doesn't look like the things linked upthread and some of them are complete nonsense like, "lab-grown diamonds are 'too perfect' and worthless (because we don't control their supply)."

At least some of those rules would apply in a medieval fantasy world, IF you were selling them as one chunk of diamond. But then problems arise when you realize certain things. One giant diamond is generally worth a lot more than 3 small diamonds which add up to an equal mass/volume. The KIND and quality of cut changes the value immensely. Once you grind them into dust, there is no difference between really dirty (and super cheap) industrial diamonds and perfectly pure (and insanely expensive) "Jeweler-quality" diamonds, because they're both ground into a powder.

For some reason it only takes an ounce of one, but 10 pounds of another, because of what they looked like before they were ground up. And heaven help you if you realize how easy it is to grow crystal structures when you have access to the Fabricate spell.

Anyway, so the point is logic need not apply, it ain't gonna help here. Best off just saying "equals money, spend money/valuables and get spell component." OR just cast "create (some brand of) demiplane" at a level that lets you determine the plane's look, and have the whole thing full of giant diamonds you loot and cast with, or even sell with a bluff check before buying "real" ones. You can even use diamond dust from a throwaway plane to create and permanency a demiplane you actually want to keep around.

BTW, what spell was OP referencing? I didn't find it on d20pfsrd, but maybe I'm just blind.


Diamond is a type of non-metallic mineral deposit.

Stone is any hard, solid, non-metallic mineral deposit.

Diamond is a valid subject for the Stone Shape spell.

However:

Stone-shape allows you to form an existing piece of stone to fit your purpose. 4 diamonds are 4 separate pieces of stone, but the spell only affects one single piece. So the spell cannot "smush."

If you can figure out how to smush the diamonds together via some other means you could manipulate the smush of diamond with the spell.

How perfect the smush diamond is after the fact would be another question. I'd probably decide on some set probability as the GM and let you roll for success.

Alternatively with 4 simultaneous castings of stone shape you could form an interlocking lattice of crystals, but they would not be physically joined so you would still need to figure out a "smushing" mechanism to get your 20,000 gold diamond.

EDIT:

Regarding all you people making a big fuss about what constitutes a 20 k diamond: If I pay 20k gold for it, it's a 20k diamond. There is no inherent property of the material or the cut which grants it an inherent worth. I could pay 20k gold for a small speck of diamond dust or 20 k for a rock the size of the moon and they would work equally well as spell components. Arguably the speck of dust would be better since I could actually carry it around without a DM fiat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you want to "convert" smaller diamonds into a larger one, Fabricate would be your go-to spell. If you need a 20k diamond, and you have four 5k diamonds, Fabricate would let you use the smaller diamonds as components to "create" an integrated, complete 20k diamond. If it were a particularly fine-cut diamond (ie. Craft DC higher than what 'take 10' would auto-succeed at), you'd also need to make a Craft(Jewelry) check.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Happler wrote:

Nothing states that it has to be a cut diamond. Only diamond that be worth the set value.

Things like this always get weird when you start to ask value to whom? A large uncut diamond would be worth a great deal to a gem cutter (who can cut it to their own desire). But that is a level of economics that almost no RPG gets into. Gold is always worth "x" per ounce, never changing by location, time, etc..

Which is why the simplest solution is to have one PC pay the other 20,000 for one of the smaller diamonds, raising it's value to 20k prior to casting the spell.

Scarab Sages

Jesus Marie, they're minerals.


Dokomo wrote:
Jesus Marie, they're minerals.

And they're headed straight for us!

Launch the counterattack! Gazebo Eidolon!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Diamonds as stated above are made of carbon, Rocks are made of roughly 50% Oxygen 25% Silicon and the rest is various metals, so I would say no they are not the same.

Crystals are just a few bazillion molecules all stacked up facing the same way, molecules are a collection of 2 or more atoms "bound" together ie water is 2 Hydrogen atoms & 1 oxygen atom, H2O, two hydrogen or two oxygen atoms bound together(as they like to do) are also considered 1 molecule.

Next weeks science lesson will be on Fusion reactors & black holes, stay tuned.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm looking forward to that one.

It'll probably be need-to-know information for Season 6 of PFS.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hi, You can buy certified diamond gemstones from Dhanshreegems. We are overwhelmed to welcome every customer to the world of gemstones in Dhanshreegems. It has marked an impressive name in the industry in which astrology sector and Precious Gemstone section has become enthusiast over our achievement because we are the main source of power for their business. Buy yellow sapphire gemstone online visit: https://www.dhanshreegems.com/yellow-sapphire-pukhraj.html


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This might be my favorite spam post ever. They're getting way better at targeting.


boring7 wrote:
lemeres wrote:
But there is an equally valid argument- synthetic gems are worth less than natural ones in real life, and I do not doubt that such a trend would change in a magical setting.

This rule LITERALLY only exists because of evil conspiracies.

No, really, take a look, and do a search on "blood diamonds" while you're at it. With current technology and understanding of minerals we could have diamond countertops instead of formica countertops at about the same price (though we wouldn't, they'd be tacky). We don't because they still provide a conduit to turn the blood of brown people into money.

Sorry, this is all a bit tangential.

That gives me an idea for a villain: a dragon whose lair sits on top of a massive diamond mine. He occasionally sells a few gems from the mine, keeping most of them in reserve, to artificially inflate the value of his hoard. The dragon will occasionally fly far afield to destroy any other gem mines within several thousand miles of him, to ensure that he's the only game in town. His mine is worked, of course, by kobold slaves.

What? No, of course it's not an allegory for anything...


Is he named DeBeers?

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Are diamonds stone? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.