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So there's this part of the nonlethal damage rules:
If a creature’s nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.
The questions is this, if a creature's maximum hitpoint value is reduced do you reevaluate previously nonlethal damage as lethal? Or is nonlethal damage, once applied, always nonlethal?
Example: An undamaged creature has 40 maximum hitpoints. He takes 20 lethal damage and 20 nonlethal. Then he receives con damage that reduces his maximum hit points to 10. Let's say the Con score is 15.
Does this creature still have 20 nonlethal and 20 lethal, and therefore is still alive?
Or do you reevaluate the nonlethal to lethal conversion, and it now has 10 nonlethal and 30 lethal, and is therefore dead?
Seems to me the crux is the reading of 'all further damage'. Does it mean 'all damage received after this point'? In which case you wouldn't reevaluate whether damage is lethal or nonlethal after the damage is applied.
If you read it as 'all nonlethal damage that you currently have beyond maximum hitpoints', then you would need to reevaluate the status of existing nonlethal damage any time maximum hitpoints are reduced and you could have the second situation.
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You keep 2 running totals of lethal and non-lethal damage. At any point if non-lethal > max HP - lethal damage, you do non-lethal - current HP and apply that as lethal damage.
That's absolutely not true.
Max HP - Lethal damage = Current HP
So when you say "non-lethal > max HP - lethal damage" that is the same as saying "non-lethal > Current HP"
And that is simply the point at which you become unconscious.
When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless (see page 567).
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I think it makes sense conceptually to have some of the nonlethal damage become lethal, but I'm not sure it would be worth it to me as a GM to recalculate it in the middle of a game.
So my instinct is to say keep it simple, don't recalculate nonlethal damage based on the new hp max, and only care about new, incoming damage.
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No, it does not convert
You do keep two running tabs. If your nonlethal matches your lethal then you go unconscious.
If your nonlethal damage bypasses your max(not your current hit points) then the nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.
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Simple is usually the best way to go, especially if you need to make on the fly ruling.
However, RAW indicates different:
If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.
There is a problem with your example. If a character with a maximum hit points of 40 takes enough constitution damage to reduce his maximum hit points to 10, that means he has taken 60 points of constitution damage. That character is dead due to constitution loss.
Putting that aside, you already have a grasp of how it should work for checking non-lethal damage and unconsciousness:
...you would need to reevaluate the status of existing nonlethal damage any time maximum hit points are reduced...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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There is a problem with your example. If a character with a maximum hit points of 40 takes enough constitution damage to reduce his maximum hit points to 10, that means he has taken 60 points of constitution damage. That character is dead due to constitution loss.
Whuzzuh? That's true for a 1st level character, but a 1st level character probably doesn't have 40 hit points.
PRD, Core Rulebook, Glossary:
"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
"...multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points."
So, say its a 5th level character with 40 hit points and a Con of 15. They'd only need to take 12 points of Con damage. That's -6 penalty to his Fort saves. He multiplies the penalty by his Hit Dice (-6*5=-30) and reduces his current and total hit points by that amount (40-30=10).
He's got 3 Con left, so he doesn't die from Con loss.
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Indeed, it's quite possible for this sort of situation to occur. It happened to me in a PFS game yesterday.
Let's make the example real. 9th level magus with 62 max hp and 13 con. 20 nonlethal damage (yay Ablative Barrier) and 18 lethal damage. Then 12 points of Con damage, bringing my max hp down to 8.
At the time I was focused on my lethal damage and Con damage. 1 more point of Con damage would have killed me, and 3 more points of lethal damage would also have killed me (8hp+13Con means death as 21 lethal) since Con damage doesn't change your actual Con score.
Only later did I think about the possible ramifications of the nonlethal to lethal conversion rule. Hence the question.
Again, I think it hinges on the interpretation of "all further nonlethal damage" in the rule I quoted.
My gut says you don't change nonlethal to lethal once it's already been applied, that you only convert nonlethal to lethal when it's first applied. But I don't trust my gut in this call, it's biased.
Now that said, the game is over. My character is in no danger of dying now. But I'd still like to have an answer that I'm confident in.
So far we have Wraithstrike in the "doesn't convert" column, and RedDog and Benchak in the "it should convert but I wouldn't for simplicity's sake" column. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your responses.
Once damage is dealt, it's dealt. I see no reason to doubt that that is a safe default position. I would need some convincing of an alternative default.
Therefore I wouldn't even consider changing damage already dealt as non-lethal to lethal without something explicitly telling me to do so. In the same way that if you were taking lethal damage from non-lethal attacks, but your hp increased I wouldn't retroactively convert that damage to non-lethal.
Obviously if my default assumption is wrong for some reason that all changes :)
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I'd agree with the judgement call that it doesn't retroactively change into lethal, only further non-lethal damage would convert.
I'd be more worried about an interpretation that would say that your total for bleeding out should be based on your ability score including damage.
Thanks for chiming in (and dragonhunterq too).
As for your second point, Pathfinder is very specific about what ability damage does: -1 penalty to relevant rolls for each 2 points of damage and, for con, lowering max hit points. Anything beyond that is not supported by RAW.
Basically, you keep two running tabs: Count hp down, so you're keeping track of current remaining hp.
You count nonlethal damage up, so that you know how much total nonlethal damage you have suffered.
When those numbers are equal, you're staggered. When nonlethal exceeds current hp, you're knocked out.
When nonlethal damage exceeds a character's maximum hp, further nonlethal damage is counted as lethal.
Constitution damage lowers your max hp.
So, let's say you have a 5HD character with 30hp and a 10 Con.
In a fight, he takes 10 hp damage. (current hp 20). He then gets pummeled for 15 nonlethal damage. He's still up.
Next round, he gets hit with poison for 4 Con damage. This causes 10 hp damage, and lowers his max hp to 20. He now has 10 hp, but 15 nonlethal, so he falls unconscious.
Next round, he fails his Fort save and takes another 4 points of Con damage. Thus causes another 10hp damage, and lowers his max hp to 10. He would now be at 0 hp, but the earlier pummeling is now affecting him worse because of the poison: his nonlethal damage now exceeds his max hp (which is not allowed). 5 points of nonlethal damage converts to hp damage. He now is at -5 hp and dying, with 10 Points of nonlethal damage, and 8 points of Con damage.
That's how I would play it at my table.