Braid of 100 Masters, and Brawlers


Advice

Shadow Lodge

What benefits do they get, if any, from this item?

Fast Movement as a 3rd level monk? It seems yes.
Unarmed damage increase, or just the 1d6 that they already have?
Does Brawler's Flurry count as Flurry of Blows, granting the swift action power?

Sorry if these questions have already been answered elsewhere, and thanks in advance.

Scarab Sages

I thought I was the only one who bought the Braid (on my Monk).

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler counts her

total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels
for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as
both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that
have different effects based on whether the character has
levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk’s
robe
). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally
granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely
Stunning Fist.

(bolding mine)

Since the Braid is mostly an alternate version of the Monk's Robe, I'd say the answers to your questions are:

They get the Fast Movement of a 3rd level Monk, since they do not have the Fast Movement class feature or an equivalent.

They get a 3 level Unarmed Damage increase, since they are treated as a Monk and have the class feature.

Brawler's Flurry counts as Flurry of Blows. This one is less obvious, but elsewhere in the ACG we have:

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

On the other hand, any alternate class features listed as

altering an existing class feature otherwise works as that
original class feature, and is considered to be that class
feature for purposes of meeting any requirements or
prerequisites, even if that feature is renamed to fit a new
theme. For example, a class feature that alters the bard’s
bardic performance still counts a bardic performance for
any prerequisite that requires that ability.

Granted, that's in the section on Archetypes, but I think it's pretty clear that Flurry of Blows and Brawler's Flurry are at their core, the same ability. This is the point I'd expect the most table variation on, though.

Sovereign Court

Id say yes on all except the flurry of blows. The class is not an archtype so the brawlers flurry would be a different ability

Shadow Lodge

Hmmm... Well, the character belongs to one of my players who only plays in our home group for now, and I'm going to rule in favor of the player. If she decides to play public PFS, I'll let her know she might get some resistance. All in all, that last bit is a fairly minor part of the whole.

Thanks again, both of you, for your answers.


Brawler's Flurry and Flurry of blows are two different abilities. They even are called out as separate abilities when qualifying for feats such as pummeling style.

If you're reporting her play, then you don't have a choice in how you GM, you run PFS as written, regardless of if you do it at a convention or in the privacy of your own home.

Shadow Lodge

Do you have a citation for that, or do you just have a problem with me adjudicating an unclear situation in favor of my players? I've already said I'll tell her to expect table variation, but at MY table it will work the way I decided.

Unless, of course, you have that rules citation handy.


You should get the movement & unarmed damage increases for certain.

For the other, I suppose expect table variation..


Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler’s flurry† class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

This is what I'm basing it on, they are two different class features, despite doing similar things.

If that wasn't clear enough, there is also a FAQ on what counts as "having that class feature" under archetypes.

FAQ wrote:

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

The two class abilities:

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Brawler’s Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s f lurry. A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s f lurry attacks.
At 8th level, the brawler gains use of the Improved Two- Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler’s flurry. At 15th level, she gains use of the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler’s flurry.
CRB wrote:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Shadow Lodge

Interesting. So even though the abilities are nigh-identical, the one doesn't reference the other. I'll have to consider that. Thanks for posting that answer.

And frankly, that was a far more convincing argument than "Run as (I say it's) Written, or you're a dirty cheater."

Scarab Sages

Expecting an item that was created before the Brawler class or the Brawler's Flurry class feature to reference that class feature isn't realistic, so the fact that it doesn't do that isn't necessarily on its own enough to say it doesn't work. Lots of things released before the Oracle class, for example, only reference the Cleric's spell list, but it's understood that Oracles use the Cleric spell list. For Brawler, we have the text about them counting as Monks for feats and magic items. It's a reasonable leap from that to think their respective flurry abilities would count as each other.

But, the FAQ quoted is a good argument to the contrary. It's frustrating, because things would be so much simpler if abilities that were essentially the same counted as the same. Sean K Reynolds' walks like a duck forum post from several years ago would also seem to agree, even if it never officially made it into an FAQ. As it is, we're left with questions like this or can a Ninja take Extra Rogue Talent to pick up an extra Ninja Trick. The rules developers are unlikely to ever clarify things like this (beyond the existing FAQ), and PFS leadership is unlikely to want to take on every corner case.

So, it comes back to table variation, with a somewhat persuasive argument based on the FAQ. However, I also quoted the more recent text from the ACG with regards to archetypes and class features, which is broader and more permissive than the FAQ. It is still referencing an archetype, not a hybrid class, but at least where they are concerned, it seems to be a refinement of the FAQ. And, if you subscribe to the Ninja being an Archetype of Rogue, the text from the ACG seems to open the door for fixing the Extra Rogue Talent dilemma.

If it's any consolation, Mystic Lemur, I very rarely use that ability of the Braid, because it takes a Swift action, and I usually want to save my swift action to spend a Ki for an extra attack or for AC. An extra attack at the highest bonus is going to likely do more damage than adding half of a strength bonus. I could see a Brawler using the Braid's ability more, though, since they don't have a Ki Pool or need as many swift actions.


What is this item out of? I can't seem to find it but am interested in it for my brawler.

Scarab Sages

TobiasBlues wrote:
What is this item out of? I can't seem to find it but am interested in it for my brawler.

It's a chronicle sheet boon item.


Ah okay.

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