Go ahead, attack me... I DARE you! (AKA: introducing The Porcupine)


Advice


13 people marked this as a favorite.

So, can a MoMS/Swashbuckler get three attacks on someone who takes an AoO on you by using Panther Claw, Snake Fang, and Opportune Parry and Riposte? And do it at 3rd level?

Panther Style:
Benefit: While using this style, when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square, you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent. Your attack is resolved after the triggering attack of opportunity.

Panther Claw:
Benefit: While using Panther Style, you can spend a free action, instead of spending a swift action, to make a retaliatory unarmed strike. You can make a number of retaliatory unarmed strikes on your turn equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Snake Fang:
Benefit: While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent’s attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent.

Opportune Parry and Riposte:
Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2 penalty on this roll. If her result is greater than the attacking creature's result, the creature's attack automatically misses. The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature's attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made. Upon performing a successful parry and if she has at least 1 panache point, the swashbuckler can as an immediate action make an attack against the creature whose attack she parried, provided that creature is within her reach.

So you could build it like this:
1 (Master of Many Styles): Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Panther Style, Snake Style
2 (Swashbucker): Opportune Parry and Riposte, Swashbuckler Finesse
3 (MoMS): Panther Claw, Snake Fang

and then at 5 you can pick up Panther Parry to sweeten the deal even more.

So at 5th level, you could do something like this:
(I ended up making a flow chart, to hopefully make this less confusing)
1) you move, provoking
2) they AoO you, and you Panther Parry to punch them. If you hit, they get -2 on attack and damage.
3) you parry the AoO (easier if you hit on the Panther Parry). If you beat their attack roll, you can use your swift action to riposte.
4) If the parry failed, you can use Snake Style and roll Sense Motive, using that as your AC if you wish
5) If they miss you (either because you parried or because their attack is lower than either your AC or Sense Motive) you can make another attack from Snake Fang
6) If your Snake Fang attack hit, and you didn't roll Sense Motive, you can make another Snake Fang attack as an immediate action

So you have four ways to hit them during your move action, only three of which can be done in any round:
A) Panther Parry
B) Opportune Parry and Riposte (immediate action)
C) Snake Fang attack
D) Snake Fang follow-through (immediate action)

After all this is over, you still have a standard action.

(Besides the two MoMS levels, I'm thinking take the rest of the levels in Swashbuckler for that sweet Precise Strike damage.)

So, does this actually work? Complicated, but it could make for a really fun (unless you're the GM) character.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Do what I did once. Make him a two weapon warrior(Fighter archetype) and laugh hysterically as every one of the those provokes TWO AoO's.


Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Do what I did once. Make him a two weapon warrior(Fighter archetype) and laugh hysterically as every one of the those provokes TWO AoO's.

That's very cool as well, but this build is for 3rd level, and that's a 13th level ability.


Fair enough you just reminded me of that build.

Well I think they can all work in conjunction. Parry specifically says that it causes the enemy to miss thus provoking snake fang. Panther style is it's own thing not interacting with the others so it doesn't really matter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Then go into Duelist for another parry.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Chaotic Fighter wrote:

Fair enough you just reminded me of that build.

Well I think they can all work in conjunction. Parry specifically says that it causes the enemy to miss thus provoking snake fang. Panther style is it's own thing not interacting with the others so it doesn't really matter.

I got reminded of something else.

Neat build though.


Hawktitan wrote:
Then go into Duelist for another parry.

That would eat your immediate action, and give you fewer attacks on your own turn. It's an interesting idea, but I don't know if it's worth the Swashbuckler levels.


Looks like an interesting build. I'm likewise doubtful Panther Style is worth it. It takes a swift action to activate each style feat at the start of combat. So activating Panther Style means you need to wait a round to benefit from snake style. Plus, you'll only get so many attacks closing the distance with Panther Style, at which point you might prefer to just full-attack.

Hm, though thinking about it, Panther Style could combine nicely with flyby attack...

But I think the biggest concern is the character resources you're pouring into melee defense. Snake Style/Fang is a great catch to combine with opportune parry and reposte. With signature deed (assuming that's an option), it's a good payoff for a three feat investment. But past that I think you could invest in widening your defenses instead of focusing them.


It is probably not worth it. I posted that more for amusement then anything.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Add on the Fortuitous enchantment from ACG: If you hit w/ your first AoO, you can get a second AoO vs same foe at -5 to hit.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Bonus: If you have Panther Parry (or even if you don't, but it's better if you do), you can attempt a combat maneuver like trip without fear of retribution (unless your opponent has more than one AoO a turn). You could conceivably disarm an opponent of the weapon they're trying swinging at you.


If we want to add more amusement, you can work in Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp.

Rhatahema wrote:
Plus, you'll only get so many attacks closing the distance with Panther Style, at which point you might prefer to just full-attack.

Well, this is at 3rd level and you can get 4 attacks (at full BAB,) or 3 if you don't want to burn a panache.


Oh panther style is definitely worth it.


I have a MoMS Snake Fang/Crane style user. Usually after the first AoO people stop attacking me.


Don't forget Counterpunch for an extra one a round.


David_Bross wrote:
I have a MoMS Snake Fang/Crane style user. Usually after the first AoO people stop attacking me.

Yeah, this is definitely a concern. Smart enemies will learn quickly not to try and stop The Porcupine!

However, there are animals and vermin and undead and things that won't be smart enough to figure it out. And more importantly, even if opponents forgo their AoOs, if they try to attack normally there is still parry and riposte and Snake Fang. If they stop attacking me entirely, well, good for me. It lets me provoke as often as I like. And it'll be easy to get into flank and such if no one wants to AoO me.

But, mostly it'll just be fun.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You could do the "I am constantly in combat with the cleric" silliness where you never leave combat because you are always fighting someone.


Definitely pondering the idea of saying "I start to bristle" when a combat seems on the way, in order to get into my styles. It seems rather silly to not allow me to get into combat pose if, say, someone's opening a suspicious door. But I don't know if I could convince my GM of that.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Could add in some tripping to jack up those attacks even more:
1. Master of Many Styles Monk – Combat Reflexes, Panther Style (H), Snake Style
2. Monk – Snake Fang
3. Swashbuckler – Panther Claw
4. Monk
5. Monk – Extra Panache
6. Monk – Panther Parry
7. Lore Warden Fighter – Dodge, Mobility
8. Fighter – Combat Expertise
9. Fighter – Improved Trip
10. Fighter – Greater Trip
11. Fighter – Vicious Stomp
12. Fighter – Power Attack
13. Fighter – Felling Smash
14. Fighter - Spring Attack

Move to an opponent; provoke an AoO on the way, Panther/Snake/Parry chain, get to opponent, Power Attack and trip, 2 AoOs, back away from opponent, possibly provoking more AoOs from first enemy/new enemy.

If you can use an immediate action and a swift action in the same turn (immediate eats up swift action on the NEXT turn), you could conceivably get 3 attacks against anyone you pass on the way to your Spring Attack target, 3 attacks and a trip on that target, and 3 attacks at anyone you pass as you leave. You could also sub one of your AoOs from being attacked/missed while moving for a trip, which will generate 2 attacks if successful, so you could actually be doing 4 attacks to anyone taking an AoO against you.

So, move, provoke AoO, trip with Panther, Greater Trip attack, -4 attack against you, +4 attack against them now, Vicious Stomp. If it misses, Snake. If it hits, Parry then Riposte. If Snake hits and you didn't Riposte, hit again.

Power Attack hit your main target, trip, Greater Trip attack, Vicious Stomp at +4 attack.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Lore Warden is a nice idea, and you can get Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp online sooner as well by dropping some of those monks levels.

1 (MoMs): Combat Reflexes, Panther Style, Snake Style, Improved Unarmed Strike
2 (MoMS): Snake Fang
3 (Swashbuckler): Panther Claw, Opportune Parry and Riposte
4 (Lore Warden): Panther Parry
5 (Lore Warden): Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Vicious Stomp
6 (Lore Warden): Maneuver Mastery
7 (Lore Warden): Greater Trip


True. That looks pretty good! I'd been looking at what monk is getting from 4-6 (more saves, higher damage die, AC bonus, speed, etc...), but getting the focus of the build online sooner is a good idea.

Level 7 you get two feats with that set-up, so you could grab Power Attack there for Felling Smash at 9.

Would another fighter archetype work better? The bonus to CMB from Lore Warden is pretty nice, but the free Combat Expertise, which is the big draw for a lot of characters doesn't mean as much with that Swashbuckler level in there allowing you to use your Cha to meet Int prerequisites, and you want a bit of Cha for a pool of Panache.


Lore Warden is nice not only for free Combat Expertise and the bonus to maneuvers, but also for the skills. Between monk for physical skills, swashbuckler for social skills, and Lore Warden for mental skills, that should cover just about everything. And 2 ranks per level is nothing to scoff at.

The other fighter archetype might be Brawler, because +1 to hit and +3 to damage is really nice. And once you get to Brawler 9 you get No Escape, and if you've picked up Step Up that leads to more fun. They 5-foot step away, provoking, and you punch them. Then you 5-foot step yourself to follow them, and you either punch them as they make ranged attacks, or force them to cast defensively at a -4 on their concentration checks.


I play something similar with Panther, Snake and combine it with Monk (MOMS2/flowing monk) and Magus(SpellDancer/kensai). Add Rime Spell to Frostbite and you do what you are saying + Fatigued + Entangled + Denied dex to AC. It works well but..can be a lot of rolls and tracking per turn.

If you add another step (swashbuckler parry) you might provoke AoOs from more dangerous foes, your friends at your table, cause man does it get micromanagement like.

Good luck though :)

EDIT:
With my build you can take the Panache Arcanas and get Precise Strike as a Magus.


Yeah, this build is definitely going to be dependent on a LOT of pre-rolling because otherwise my turns would take forever.


Yeah I do love the concept (I go with Mobility, Spell Dance, etc to get the flavour going. Also Arcana that adds Int to hit is great in the magus build.) but with some explanation it goes. If you see this going on for the first time youd just think it too complicated.

For all the skeptics about Action Management: Combat Style Master. Your styles do not take swifts anymore!


Errant Mercenary wrote:
For all the skeptics about Action Management: Combat Style Master. Your styles do not take swifts anymore!

That is GREAT. I did not know about that feat.


If you are thinking about swash, kata master and MoMS archetypes stack. Then you can parry/riposte with all monk weapons and unarmed strikes. Not sure if it works for you,but could get you more panache to use without the extra panache feat.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:
If you are thinking about swash, kata master and MoMS archetypes stack. Then you can parry/riposte with all monk weapons and unarmed strikes. Not sure if it works for you,but could get you more panache to use without the extra panache feat.

Woah! Nice!

So, the Swashbuckler level can be skipped, you get more Deeds, and you get more Ki naturally, which also lowers your dependence on Cha, and removes the need to pick up Extra Panache!

Not gaining a level here, because we'd want 4 monk before going fighter (vs. 2 monk/1 swashbuckler/1 fighter), but that's not too bad sine the extra 2 monk levels are bumping all your saves by 1 (vs. +2 on just Reflex), and you pick up Fast Movement, Ki (notably Wis+2 added to Panache pool, for Cha+Wis+2), Maneuver Training (+1 to CMB/CMD), 1d8 unarmed strikes, and +1 AC along with everything else you get with a Ki pool, and Slow Fall.

I'd probably go: lvl 1-2 monk, lvl 3-4 fighter, level 5-6 monk, rest fighter.

1 Monk -Combat Reflexes, Panther Style, Snake Style, Improved Unarmed Strike
2 Monk - Snake Fang
3 Fighter - Panther Claw, Panther Parry
4 Fighter - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
5 Monk - Vicious Stomp
6 Monk
7 Fighter - Greater Trip
8 Fighter - Power Attack
9 Fighter - Felling Smash
10 Fighter - Combat Style Master (or Dodge)
11 Fighter - Dodge
12 Fighter - Mobility

From 13 on, may want to consider going back to monk until 19, since the Kata Master should qualify for Signature Deed at 11 monk (level 19 with this set-up). Conversely, could also stick with monk after level 7 (so you don't delay Greater Trip) to get Signature Deed by level 14, and then go back to fighter. If going that route, I'd want to fit another Style in there, since we'd get the upgrade along the way that allows us to enter 3 styles at once as a Swift action (replaces the need for Combat Style Master for most purposes). Could pick up the Crane feats for yet ANOTHER riposte-type action (which thankfully uses neither a swift, nor an immediate), and some more AC.

Actually, I think I like that better...

1 Monk -Combat Reflexes, Panther Style, Snake Style, Improved Unarmed Strike
2 Monk - Snake Fang
3 Fighter - Panther Claw, Panther Parry
4 Fighter - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
5 Monk - Vicious Stomp
6 Monk
7 Fighter - Greater Trip
8 Monk
9 Monk - Crane Style, Dodge
10 Monk
11 Monk - Crane Wing
12 Monk
13 Monk - Crane Riposte, Power Attack
14 Monk
15 Fighter - Signature Deed (Parry), Felling Smash
16. Fighter
17 Fighter - Mobility, Spring Attack


Kata Master is definitely interesting, but remember that if you don't take a Swashbuckler level then you have to take Weapon Finesse at some point (as early as possible, really.)

Just to be clear: if you are a Kata Master and you take a Swashbuckler level, the two Panache pools completely redundant, correct?

Also, I don't think Crane Style synergizes. In order to use Crane Wing/Crane Riposte you have to use Total Defense, which prevents you from making AoOs (and also eats your standard action.)


Why do you need Weapon Finesse?

As for Crane Wing, I forgot about the stupid errata. In my game at home, I've ruled that an attack that has missed due to using Crane Wing using the +4 AC version also triggers Crane Riposte.


yeti1069 wrote:
Why do you need Weapon Finesse?

Well, this build demands huge Dex because you need lots of AoOs and good AC. And you need good Wis for Panther Claw and more AC. And some Cha for panache. Adding Str to the mix just seems way too MAD. Much better, I think to go the Finesse/Agile AoMF route.


RumpinRufus wrote:
yeti1069 wrote:
Why do you need Weapon Finesse?
Well, this build demands huge Dex because you need lots of AoOs and good AC. And you need good Wis for Panther Claw and more AC. And some Cha for panache. Adding Str to the mix just seems way too MAD. Much better, I think to go the Finesse/Agile AoMF route.

True.

With Kata Master, I don't think Cha is all that important, especially if you're picking up more than a few monk levels. Wis+1/2 level should be enough Panache-equivalency so long as you have 1 or 2 standard points of Panache (that can be regenerated).

I'd rate that benefit higher than what Swashbuckler 1 provides all on its own, but all the other stuff monk comes with really tilts those scales, even if it means having to burn a feat or a few thousand gold on Weapon Finesse or Agile, respectively. It means delaying something a little. I'd probably bump Panther Style to level 3, grab Panther Claw at the same time, and push Panther Parry to level 9, pushing back Dodge (and everything that relies on it). It's good, but it isn't a necessity for everything else to work.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Go ahead, attack me... I DARE you! (AKA: introducing The Porcupine) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.