Thoughts on the new S&S characters


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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How does a tot flask allow you to get a potion of heroism Every turn? Dont you have to recharge the flask to get the heroism and then heroism once its done?

Also Damiel starts out with 6 items, so lets assume:

Two tot flasks, one potion of healing, one noxious bomb, one firebomb, one potion of heroism. Thats six right there for an ideal load out. Ok so lets give him seven - maybe a masterworks tool? or charisma potion?. Where is he getting the space for all these potions that let him auto beat barriers and acquire allies? What about the gem of intelligence for him?

As I said in my assessment Damiel CAN do everything, but at the cost of emptying his hand out no matter what he wants to do.


Damiel's stat spread isn't as bad as Seltyiel's. He has a total of 42 instead of 40, and has a d10 as his highest rather than a d8. His poor wisdom is probably the worst part about him, but even that is better than Seltyiel's wisdom.


Ilpalazo wrote:

How does a tot flask allow you to get a potion of heroism Every turn? Dont you have to recharge the flask to get the heroism and then heroism once its done?

Also Damiel starts out with 6 items, so lets assume:

Two tot flasks, one potion of healing, one noxious bomb, one firebomb, one potion of heroism. Thats six right there for an ideal load out. Ok so lets give him seven - maybe a masterworks tool? or charisma potion?. Where is he getting the space for all these potions that let him auto beat barriers and acquire allies? What about the gem of intelligence for him?

As I said in my assessment Damiel CAN do everything, but at the cost of emptying his hand out no matter what he wants to do.

If Damiel has a 16 or 17 card deck and a 7 card hand, his odds of always having one of either the ToT Flasks or Heroism in hand are incredibly high. The fact that he can reliably reshuffle his deck with ToT Flask and healing abilities help to ensure the cards that he needs don't clump together. As long as you can play four or five cards a turn to cycle your deck you should almost always have a potion of heroism (assuming that's the card you want)

As for load out, I have always chosen items for Damiel when the opportunity emerges.

I wouldn't give Masterwork tool to Damiel. He has so many great choices for items, and I would rather give that to someone with fewer options. I also don't like the intelligence gem, but I can see why some people would like it.

Right now (once scenario into AP3), my item load out is

Tot Flask x2, Potion of Heroism, Potion of Healing, Alchemist’s Fire, Liquid Ice, Potion of Glibness, Potion of Flying

Scarab Sages

Ilpalazo wrote:
Orbis I think you're overstating things a little bit. Damiels base dice besides intelligence are all D8 or worse. In fact his spread looks worse than your most hated Seltyel.

I tend to agree with you...but I guarantee that you are wasting your time trying to convince the others. Enjoy the game, as will they, in separate universes of player-preferences that never shall meet.


I actually think Joshua and Orbis are great players, especially with characters that maximize deck cycling.

Joshuas post right above yours is quite interesting and I think our Damiel player can get some guidance from it and can hopefully relieve some of the frustration hes experiencing with the alchemist.

In a way this disparity of experiences and assessments is a credit to the game, in that it reflects different play styles and situations. Kind of neat that the same set of cards can bring about vastly different results from various people. I may think our Oloch is more valuable than Damiel while Orbis and Joshua might think that Damiel is basically S&S's broken demigod character, and thats ok! The game has plenty of room to accomodate all these different perspectives.

Its good to see the enthusiasm from the crew on this.


I hope that the Damiel advice helps your player have more fun. If it would be helpful for me to post a full deck list or walk thoughts couple of sample turns, let me know. I will be glad to help.

For what its worth, I have a ton more fun playing my Razak, Jirelle, Fiya and Oloch party than I do playing my party with Damiel (Damiel, Alahazra, Seltyiel and Lirianne).


Damiel and Ranzak are a fun combination - Damiel plays a potion of heroism (and maybe a speed if he has one), and Ranzak burns through the deck, acquiring all the boons with +d4 +d6 to all boon checks, then a 2/3 chance of going again for free. (especially good in an ally or blessing heavy deck, where you have back up for failing the D6 roll)


Honestly, the Damiel player in our group doesn't even have any attack potions in her deck. With the ability to just use other potions as bombs, Damiel still have a reasonable combat check, especially while at the same location as Lem or Valeros. Damiel will then just turn around and use a heal potion or cure spell, get the bomb back, shuffle the deck, and move on with life. Perhaps later in the adventure she'll need the item attacks, but for now they're just extreme overkill.


Sometimes you need overkill when your dice want you dead :P

Sovereign Court

"When your dice want you dead"

Are you implying there are times they DON'T want you dead?


isaic16 wrote:
Honestly, the Damiel player in our group doesn't even have any attack potions in her deck. With the ability to just use other potions as bombs, Damiel still have a reasonable combat check, especially while at the same location as Lem or Valeros. Damiel will then just turn around and use a heal potion or cure spell, get the bomb back, shuffle the deck, and move on with life. Perhaps later in the adventure she'll need the item attacks, but for now they're just extreme overkill.

I'm a bit confused by this. For me, the purpose of the bombs is to give you a decent combat check when you don't have a gun (before you get it into your hand or after it gets shuffled/discarded), or for when you really want a ridiculous number of dice.

His ability to discard an alchemical card for 2d6, in mind, serves an entirely different role.

Sovereign Court

Gun? Fire Lance.


Andrew L Klein wrote:
Gun? Fire Lance.

To each his own, but I want a weapon I can use repeatedly in the same turn. I think the Firelance contributes to the problem several posters have mentioned (that Damiel can't handle multiple encounters a turn).


(Firstly - even if it seems I'll never be convinced, I enjoy these talks, so by all means try to sway me.)

Reminder, this is all what I think, I'm not stating it as universal law, just my conclusions (which I do feel are justified, mind you).

It should be noted that Damiel doesn't do everything excellently at the same time. I think he can be built to rival some of the best characters at their own game (he can be a super healer, super supporter, super fighter, etc.), but he's best at splashing things in and being flexible. He could run multiple potions of healing, for instance, and be the greatest healer - but why bother? He can toss the party the occasional heal with just one, and that leaves space for other awesome things. You could build him to tackle barriers and non-combat checks with ease, but you have to layer support cards for that, taking up precious space. So, while he CAN do anything, he shouldn't - his strength is in his consistency and flexibility, with potential apocalyptic combat checks to top it off. So, not everything *excellently* at the same time, but everything at the same time nonetheless.

I would say, and this is all just my opinion, mind you, that *all* Damiels should take 2x Tot Flask, 1+ Potion of Heroism, 1+ Potion of Flying, and just one Potion of Healing. I would leave all the combat items at home - yes, he COULD use it for ridiculous combat, but why? He's good enough as is, and those item slots are precious. I'm also with Josh in that he should have a weapon that stays in his hand such as a gun or crossbow rather than fire lance for consistency. If he runs into something that really needs to die, he can use PoHeroism or his discard ability (or both) to kill it dead - there's no reason to go overkill and leave him vulnerable on the next combat check. From here we begin to get a solid base from which Damiel can adapt to whatever situation the player wants, both long term and short term. In the short term, he can heal, make combat, pass non-combat, buff allies, and explore almost on demand. He's not the best character in the game (with this build) at any of these - but he can do them all. In the long term, the player can begin to tweak him with feats and the remaining card slots to do even better at the role they like him to do. You've got two spells and an item to work with before we even look at the non-explore effects on allies/blessings or his feats. This, to me, is what's so great about Damiel, what makes him so powerful.

Oh, and if you want him to be a party healer, I would strongly suggest taking a Cure over taking a second Potion of healing. You want the first PoHealing for searchability and guaranteed recharge, but after that I suggest Cure because his item slots are so much more precious than his spells. Then, if you STILL want more healing, I'd go for a second PoHealing, but you probably won't.

---

For those who are curious, I would likely build him something like this at two card feats - but it's all play-style preference beyond my recommendations above. And it's assuming I'm able to acquire what I need.

2x Dex-based Weapons that stay in hand
1x Charm Animal (pseudo Haste)
1x Aid / Detect Traps
1x Buckler Gun
2x Tot Flask
2x Potion of Heroism
2x Potion of Flying
1x Potion of Healing
1x Virtually any ally, he'll probably explore with it
4x Blessing to taste

With this build I can consistently get whatever I need for the situation, be it help with a barrier, a weapon to fight with, or simply explore power. I wouldn't be amazing at any one thing, but I'd be good at it all. Weapons should be able to be drawn due to the high amount of deck cycling and that there's three of them, and can be discarded for his d6 power if overdrawn. I would consider Call Weapon until I get a second weapon feat, particularly without the Buckler Gun (hard to find, another player may want it); This is what I'd take until I found the charm animal. Potion of Healing would be mostly to recycle my own non-recharged cards (particularly failed Tot Flasks) but could be used on others in a pinch. Tot Flasks will nearly always be used to find Heroism and Flying.


Orbis,

When you get your third card upgrade, consider adding a Potion of the Ocean. I just got it last night and it's another amazing addition to Damiel's tool kit. I would consider it a "must-have" if you are running Damiel with a party that constantly groups up, but the card carries its own weight even when Damiel is at locations by himself.

Sovereign Court

I'm kinda seeing why you guys prefer the reveal weapons versus my preference of the Fire Lance. I use the combat potions, 3 of them in the deck out of I think 8 items (Totem Necklace forever!), so my weapon being a recharge isn't a problem. Plus, I have a loot Dex that is a reveal (although I massively regret taking that weapon feat, I'd rather have another item)

Call Weapon pulls the Lance back the instant I use it or find the spell. No interest in Tot Flask at all, I have yet to be at a point where a specific is really needed. I'd rather have things like Sapphire of Intelligence. The Buckler Gun is cool, but I don't know that I'd keep it if I found it. My armor right now has no reveal or recharge for damage prevention, but is a reveal to add 1 to my combat, but I could be willing to drop that for an armor that duals as a full weapon.

The new barrel item (can't remember the name, or even what it does at the moment, looks like an open gunpowder barrel) is in my deck too and I have had a chance to use it since it was acquired the last scenario we played, but it's going to be used a lot.


Andrew,

The idea behind the Tot Flask is not just getting the right tool for the situation - you can think of it as having another copy of the potions you like in your deck, assuming you recharge it (not a small assumption, but still). Think of it like having this item list:

3x Potion of Heroism
3x Potion of Flying
1x Potion of Healing

Except that it's better due to flexibility (I can get any one of them more often if I want - I could have written 2 PoHeroism, 4 PoFlying, 1 PoHealing if I wanted). There is the recharge issue, but do you see what I'm trying to say? It's not just about searching for the right tool - it's kinda like having more copies of those tools in your deck in the first place.

---

Josh,

What's it do? I'm kind of out of the loop at the moment. My play group fell apart (stupid life, getting in the way of games); I'm trying to reassemble it / make a new one.


Don't have the exact text in front of me atm, but it is something to the effect of "Banish to allow anyone at your location to succeed at a check that has the aquatic trait."


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Don't have the exact text in front of me atm, but it is something to the effect of "Banish to allow anyone at your location to succeed at a check that has the aquatic trait."

I don't think I'd be able to stand doing that. Almost at an OCD level, I avoid / dislike / whatever cards that are so hit and miss. I mean, I understand that there's a lot of Aquatic cards in S&S, but... It puts a bad taste in my mouth. I'd rather just take a combat item - won't work on (non-combat) barriers or my companions, but of constant use.

I value consistency very highly. Even with the high ratio of Aquatic cards and the ability to discard for 2d6 I doubt I'd take it. Not that it's bad, it's just not my flavor.


I've kept my Damiel a little more broad--to the point where Jirelle picked up a Potion of Flying after closing the Apothecary and I decided I didn't need a second one--though not as all encompassing as Orbis. Instead, I'm hanging on to Potion of the Ocean, which lets you skip a shark fight, if you feel like it, and dismiss a lot of villains outright. Was incredibly powerful during Bizarre Love Triangle, fairly strong in the next scenario too (beat Uthuggimaru a couple times without even rolling dice).

My deck's currently:

Vindictive Harpoon, Toxic Blunderbuss +1
Potion of Heroism, Healing, Flying, Ocean. Tot Flask. Besmara's Tricorne, Letter of Marque, Svingli's Eye
Sniper's Studded Leather
Aid and Find Traps
Milani, Gozreh, Cayden Cailen

Still, I feel the urge to diversify even more. Maybe Damiel isn't *excellent* at everything, but he's sufficiently good at everything, and Pathfinder rewards "sufficiently good at a lot of stuff" better than "amazing at one thing," especially how S&S and shaping up to be harder by way of more diverse checks. Love Potion of Heroism, love Potion of Flying. It'll be weird to move on and play characters who don't get psyched up when one of those gets turned over on an explore.

Right now Tot Flask is basically just Potion of Healing x2, which feels like it's wasting its ability for something pretty mundane (though extremely useful in its mundanity). Potion of Heroism's great. I 1000% see the appeal of having two in a deck, but it requires a decent hand before it feels worth using. We play only with two characters, and my wife keeps Jirelle's seven card hand fairly static (weapon, Lady Agasta, Helpful Haversack, sometimes fortitude ring) and so will usually only explore twice per turn. Besides that, we've been clearing out Basic cards at a rate much faster than we did in RoRL, so we often need to keep a blessing around because a dangerous Veteran barrier or monster is way more likely to show up.

Andrew, if you like Totem Necklace, why not Letter of Marque? Or maybe you just haven't reached that scenario. :) Though it doesn't guarantee a free item, you still have to acquire it, it's 1d4+1 items on the table for you. I've used it twice in scenarios where we have a little more time in the blessings deck, so I scan through most of the cards I put down. So far nothing's come up from my boon sniffing, except we got rid of an Alchemist's Fire. Ditching a Basic card is a boon unto itself, if you'll permit my pun.

I took weapon as my first card feat because of all the villains that forced you to recharge a pirate or swashbuckling card, which would always end up being my weapon. This has proved less necessary in later APs. Often I'm stuck with two weapons in hand, since I'd have to bury one to get rid of it. Tried Fire Lance, liked it, but the variance without any static plusses was too much for me. Mostly I ignore the bomb items. If I pick one up during an adventure, sure, it's a nice way to get one of your weapons out of your hand, but I feel more useful using a blessing against a hard check than consuming a whole item slot with a quasi-weapon when his regular weapons are usually sufficient, and his discard power makes up the difference when they're not. I can see the appeal, because using one is basically a free combat check, but it's not for me. I like the utility stuff too much, and I already sacrificed the Jolly Roger from my deck, even though it was cool as heck. :(

Svingli's Eye is the most likely to get replaced, I just felt someone should keep it around for a while. I mostly use it for the scouting power, but with Tricorne you can give yourself an non-zero chance at recharging it, and Damiel's weak-ish Wisdom and Con have made some sort of Con buff a necessity (a couple scary single dice rolls on the scenario that makes you test Fort every turn or bury cards). Orbis, I love your use of Charm Animal as a pseudo-haste. I did the same with Seoni for most of RoRL. Too bad Charm Animal won't ever get you that awesome AP3 Surgeon ally that lets you recharge to explore (and move if you're on a ship). We keep narrowly missing him in closed locations!

I also think you're absolutely right about Cure versus extra potions of healing. At this point, I'd even consider dropping Aid for it, to free Tot Flask up a little so I'm not using it exclusively on PoHs. No matter how many Potions of Healing we run into (I didn't even know there were 3 in the game, but we hit 2 in the same location last night) one feels like enough. Unfortunately, spells haven't been kind to us. Damiel's been sitting on Aid and Find Traps since basically the beginning of the game. In fact, even with scads of plunder in AP3 (sometimes thanks to Goblin Keelhauling, which Damiel failed last night, but we still went on to win the scenario) we're deficient in a few areas. Jirelle still has a Cutlass +1 and the Cat of Nine Tails in her deck. I can't even remember the last time we encountered a Finesse weapon. The cat is an astonishingly good weapon for a B card, but it's a little frustrating when it's the only thing in your hand against a ghost.

Still just completely in love with Damiel (and S&S as a whole). He's may favorite character in a "oh, I can help with that" sense. Support characters will always be my one true love, and Damiel's usage is a little more interesting than Lem's recharging a generic card for a generic (albeit very powerful bonus). However, now having played through RoRL with character decks, Radillo edged out Damiel as pure favorite I think. She's got a great balance of very satisfying powers that require just the right amount of chewy thought and mental crunch to keep you engaged. Static bonuses from recharge powers are great, I'll never say no to a d4+3, but I don't mind having to a little work for my meal.


Andrew L Klein wrote:

"When your dice want you dead"

Are you implying there are times they DON'T want you dead?

My boyfriend's dice don't hate him. Sometimes I think he's trying to get himself killed, but the dice won't let him.


Dave Riley wrote:

... Potion of Heroism's great. I 1000% see the appeal of having two in a deck, but it requires a decent hand before it feels worth using. We play only with two characters, and my wife keeps Jirelle's seven card hand fairly static (weapon, Lady Agasta, Helpful Haversack, sometimes fortitude ring) and so will usually only explore twice per turn. Besides that, we've been clearing out Basic cards at a rate much faster than we did in RoRL, so we often need to keep a blessing around because a dangerous Veteran barrier or monster is way more likely to show up.

...

Orbis, I love your use of Charm Animal as a pseudo-haste. I did the same with Seoni for most of RoRL. Too bad Charm Animal won't ever get you that awesome AP3 Surgeon ally that lets you recharge to explore (and move if you're on a ship). We keep narrowly missing him in closed locations!

I also think you're absolutely right about Cure versus extra potions of healing. At this point, I'd even consider dropping Aid for it, to free Tot Flask up a little so I'm not using it exclusively on PoHs. No matter how many Potions of Healing we run into (I didn't even know there were 3 in the game, but we hit 2 in the same location last night) one feels like enough. Unfortunately, spells haven't been kind to us. Damiel's been sitting on Aid and Find Traps since basically the beginning of the game. In fact, even with scads of plunder in AP3 (sometimes thanks to Goblin Keelhauling, which Damiel failed last night, but we still went on to win the scenario) we're deficient in a few areas. Jirelle still has a Cutlass +1 and the Cat of Nine Tails in her deck. I can't even remember the last time we encountered a Finesse weapon. The cat is an astonishingly good weapon for a B card, but it's a little frustrating when it's the only thing in your hand against a ghost.

Dude, consider looking at PoHeroism as an Aid. You can use it at the same time as aid, making it a pseudo-Blessing for helping a check, but that also helps later checks if they're made (even on the same card, for pre-Act or multiple check-to-defeat cards). If you run more than one than feel free to drop it like you would an Aid. The only way Damiel's PoHeroism is inferior to Aid is if he wants to play another item on the check. That's obvious, but remember that they can be played the same way. Saving the PoHeroisms can just make things worse in the long run, especially considering that the sooner you play it the sooner you can draw it again. Don't waste it, but don't paralyze yourself waiting for the opportune moment.

If you're using Tot Flask for PoHealing, absolutely drop the Aid for a Cure. It's a direct upgrade - when you draw one you heal, and when you draw the other you buff. It's exactly the same thing, except you'll now heal d4+1 instead of d4 and buff d6 for the whole turn instead of one check. Instantly better.

EDIT: In the above paragraph, I'm assuming that Tot Flask always becomes PoHeroism instead of PoHealing after swapping. Consider, however, that you can also search for other stuff once Tot Flask is freed up, making it even better than I described.


Right now Totting for PoHs really suits our playstyle. We've always played maximizing blessings for explores, and so our discard piles are usually pretty dense. Pulling it back almost every turn, because PoH gets shuffled into Damiel's deck when he uses it on himself, keeps the blessings flowing and the discard piles small.

I'm mostly curious if the occasional 1d4+1 would do the trick and give Tot Flask room to breathe. With PoH our discard piles are empty more often than not, but they don't need to be empty empty. Besides which, if he's PoHing himself (or Tot Flasking), that's all the more chance of getting Cure back earlier anyway. I'll probably try it. I just really like Aid (which works on characters elsewhere). Rise of the Runelords nostalgia, maybe, and besides, I won't get a Spell card feat until... the end of AP5? I've got one more Item feat to go I think.

Definitely done the Aid + PoHero ritual. Needed it, in the rare cases where Damiel doesn't have a weapon in hand and so has to max out his D6s (sometimes with the help of Jirelle's Mogmurch, happily risking her own hand to something like 7d6).


Doesn't Potion of Heroism specify at your location, and Aid apply globally (at work, don't have cards to check.)

I run Damiel with 2x Potion of Healing - with it just being D4 instead of D4+1, it makes it too easy to whiff- and when he had a cure, he kept failing the recharge.

Haven't got Adv 3 yet (due to reach the UK next week), will be interesting to see how Potion of flying goes into the mix.

Contributor

Orbis Orboros wrote:
I would say, and this is all just my opinion, mind you, that *all* Damiels should take 2x Tot Flask, 1+ Potion of Heroism, 1+ Potion of Flying, and just one Potion of Healing.

I think this is just what our Damiel has, with a Noxious Bomb instead of the Potion of Flying (partly because he likes having the "go big" combat number, but mostly because we haven't found a Potion of Flying yet).

Contributor

Dave Riley wrote:

My deck's currently:

Vindictive Harpoon, Toxic Blunderbuss +1
Potion of Heroism, Healing, Flying, Ocean. Tot Flask. Besmara's Tricorne, Letter of Marque, Svingli's Eye
Sniper's Studded Leather
Aid and Find Traps
Milani, Gozreh, Cayden Cailen

You play Damiel and Jirelle, but Damiel is the one with Besmara's Tricorne? Our Jirelle wouldn't dream of letting it go!

(We play Damiel, Jirelle, and my Feiya.)


Jirelle should make anyone who takes her hat or the Letter of Marque should be forced to walk the plank.


For us, it was just to give Damiel some survivability in those checks, which are much harder than on him than her, especially since she's got the Old Salt's Bandana (though not for long, with role cards on the horizon!). Forget about space in her deck, she doesn't even have space in her stagnant hand, carrying around the cards I mentioned (weapon, Lady Agasta, Haversack) in addition to the Bandana. That's four out of her seven cards that never move! She doesn't need a hat on top of that (though I admit it would add to her already perfectly jaunty aesthetic).

Besides, wearing the Tricorne would hide the Bandana's true glory beneath, which explains thematically why she can't use both at the same time. :D


My Ranzak has the Tricorne in our group, he looks great in it!


Ranzak would also be great for the Letters of Marque, since he could minimize the downside of putting boons at a closed location.


What do the letters do?


Going from memory, something to the effect of "When you are at a closed location, bury this card and choose a type of boon other than loot or blessings. Add 1d4 cards of that type to the location." It might even let you explore/encounter or acquire the first one.


MightyJim wrote:
Doesn't Potion of Heroism specify at your location, and Aid apply globally (at work, don't have cards to check.)

I think you're right, that's a good point. I still put things in PoHeroism's favor when we're talking Damiel, but that's worth considering.

MightyJim wrote:
I run Damiel with 2x Potion of Healing - with it just being D4 instead of D4+1, it makes it too easy to whiff- and when he had a cure, he kept failing the recharge.

An understandable stance, and one of the reasons I would suggest minimum 1 PoHealing, but I still posit that a Cure is overall better than the second PoHealing due to high competition for Damiel's item slots. But it's close enough to chalk it up to preference, I suppose.

Sovereign Court

Orbis Orboros wrote:
MightyJim wrote:
Doesn't Potion of Heroism specify at your location, and Aid apply globally (at work, don't have cards to check.)

I think you're right, that's a good point. I still put things in PoHeroism's favor when we're talking Damiel, but that's worth considering.

MightyJim wrote:
I run Damiel with 2x Potion of Healing - with it just being D4 instead of D4+1, it makes it too easy to whiff- and when he had a cure, he kept failing the recharge.
An understandable stance, and one of the reasons I would suggest minimum 1 PoHealing, but I still posit that a Cure is overall better than the second PoHealing due to high competition for Damiel's item slots. But it's close enough to chalk it up to preference, I suppose.

We have Oloch. If I ever take another spell feat I may run a Cure (with the upped difficulty of S&S, I'm interested to see how the game plays later with no upgraded versions of Cure), but definitely no Potion of Healing. Too many other items that are better for me.

I'd definitely rather have a Potion of Heroism over Aid though. Yes, Aid is anywhere, but the Potion gives the bonus until the end of your next turn. I've played it multiple times where I've dropped the Potion on someone right after my turn, and then they move. Especially handy when finding cards that make other people fight banes. Several turns of bonuses. Especially handy in combo with Flying.


Since we're talking about Potion of Heroism, it's worth mentioning that it works really well with the Man's Promise. Then your explores aren't limited by the number of blessings/allies you have in your hand for exploration.


I'm surprised no one has brought this up before. I think that Man's Promise is a problematic card that makes the game less fun for everyone involved because it encourages you to funnel all of your explorations to a single "super character." It's effective, but how fun is it for everyone else to watch Ranzak, fueled by a potion of heroism, taking all* the turns for the party.

* I know it isn't literally all of the turn, but the card effectively lets you effectively siphon explores from one player to transfer them to another.


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Yeah the Man's Promise (and really most of the ships that burn deck blessings to do x) are interesting, but as a six player group we haven't used any of their powers at all- at 6 we have 5 turns each to complete the scenario, and the ROI on losing a turn completely better be enormous if we are going to use it.

Grand Lodge

I find them much more appealing in a solo or two player game. Being able to heal with Truewind or get through a nasty location that has painful "Start of Turn" conditions is made a lot easier with Man's Promise.

But in a larger group, it's too risky to burn more than maybe one blessing for a ship power.

Sovereign Court

No group interested in fun is going to let someone burn through Man's Promise explores. We don't use then to give one person a bunch of explores. We use it whenever the current player has that perfect hand and doesn't want to risk losing it before the next turn.

It's one of those cards that can be poor design, but only if you're playing with selfish players anyways.

That's the only ship we even use blessings for (it's been our ship nearly 100% of the time), because it uses the blessings for what they'll be used for anyways, but let's you optimize when you go and makes sure that perfect hand can't be wasted.


This is getting off topic, but we have discussed the Man's Promise and Potion of Heroism before, briefly touching on the idea of how to close all locations in a single turn.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
This is getting off topic, but we have discussed the Man's Promise and Potion of Heroism before, briefly touching on the idea of how to close all locations in a single turn.

Getting back on topic

I love seeing the variety of approaches to Damiel. Here is my current list for my four player party

Weapons: Toxic Blunderbuss
Spells: Cure, Find Traps
Armors: Sniper's studded Leather
Items: Alchemist's Fire, Potion of Flying, Potion of Glibness, Potion of Healing. Potion of Heroism, Potion of the Ocean, Liquid Ice, Tot Flask (x2)
Allies:Joseph "Jack" Scrimshaw
Blesssings: Abadar, Achaekek (x2), Hshurha

In a perfect world, I would probably drop fire and probably glibness for another liquid ice and a third Tot flask or second potion of Flying.

In terms of differences from other Damiels, I haven't added an additional weapon, but use bombs instead. I like the ability to pump my damage when needed, and the bombs provide that flexibility. I also am a huge supporter of Scrimshaw, since he ensures that I never fail recharge checks and boosts combat rolls with bombs. I can still burn him for an explore when I really need it, but prefer to keep him in-hand as a general rule.

I am undecided on find traps or charm animal. I have gone back and forth on it throughout the campaign.

edit: I almost forgot upgrades! I find Damiel's upgrades a bit lackluster. I have taken the extra card, weapons and a +1 to his discard power. I like keeping my gun in hand, and i don't think that the +2 would matter enough to be worth it.

I am not particularly excited about either role. Someone sell me on which way to take the character at the conclusion of AP3.

Sovereign Court

I keep my character sheet in the box we play with, at a friend's place, so I can't say for sure but I believe my deck is something like this.

Weapons: Fire Lance, Adv1 Loot Harpoon
Spells: Call Weapon, Find Traps
Armors: Can't remember, reveals for +1 combat damage, 2 with Divine
Items: Alchemist's Fire, Liquid Ice, Potion of Flying, Totem Medallion, Sapphire of Intelligence, Powder Keg (something close), Noxious Bomb, Potion of Heroism
Allies: Agatha Smythee
Blessings: The Adv2 and 3 blessings (can't remember, no more Sajan means Blessings don't stick in my mind!), Zogmugot, and Besmara

I think that Noxious Bomb might be a Potion of Glibness since last scenario, if not, I need to fix that and some 'splorin.

I'd rather go Grenadier on roles

Bigger bomb power in general, and the bonus die for using an Alchemical goes from D6 to D12 (although I roll those horribly, so D6 may actually be more beneficial in my hands than a D12).

Both get a free explore on acquiring Liquid and Alchemical, I'd rather get it from Firearms off of one feat that either Healing or Fire&Poison. I see Firearms more often than those, and my skills allow me to acquire them more often

I'm not big on the examining the top of your deck on a successful Craft check, but that's just because I don't pass those. I'll roll high on D10s all night long, but the second I roll a Craft check for the bonus damage on a potion, I rarely see anything about a 3 on the die.


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:

I'm surprised no one has brought this up before. I think that Man's Promise is a problematic card that makes the game less fun for everyone involved because it encourages you to funnel all of your explorations to a single "super character." It's effective, but how fun is it for everyone else to watch Ranzak, fueled by a potion of heroism, taking all* the turns for the party.

* I know it isn't literally all of the turn, but the card effectively lets you effectively siphon explores from one player to transfer them to another.

That's not usually how my group uses it. It just comes up if we have a potion of heroism, need to get through turns quick (like scenario 1 of part 2), or our location has a nasty before your turn effect. If none of those are really helpful, we use another ship.

I guess it's a bit off topic, but since we're evaluating characters, wemight as well evaluate ships, too :P


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:


edit: I almost forgot upgrades! I find Damiel's upgrades a bit lackluster. I have taken the extra card, weapons and a +1 to his discard power. I like keeping my gun in hand, and i don't think that the +2 would matter enough to be worth it.

I am not particularly excited about either role. Someone sell me on which way to take the character at the conclusion of AP3.

Josh,

Given that you're already built with max items and are playing heavy tot-flask cycling, the 'draw on craft check' power seems like an obvious draw. Get your hand size big enough to hold your weapon/armor/ally/spells, play or hand off your blessings so your deck is item-rich, and go to town!
(Moving to display spells like Speed might be wise with this, to effectively have a bigger deck to draw from at EOT, without clogging your draws.)

Of course, my 'go infinite' Damiel/Ezren-centered party hasn't gotten to the tuned deck stage yet, but the concept seems sound!


I normally don't value the draw powers particularly highly, but I think you are right on the money with this one, philosorapt0r. Grenadier it is!


Now that some groups are pretty much finished their first runthrough of S&S - would love folks like Mechalibur, Joshua, Orbis and Andrew to come back and give a final assessment of the characters, I will be doing the same in about a month once we are done AP6.

So far, Damiel has gone up a bit in my estimation with a more balanced build, Oloch has become even more essential to a large party and Jirelle is still the true all-star of the group.


Ilpalazo wrote:

Now that some groups are pretty much finished their first runthrough of S&S - would love folks like Mechalibur, Joshua, Orbis and Andrew to come back and give a final assessment of the characters, I will be doing the same in about a month once we are done AP6.

So far, Damiel has gone up a bit in my estimation with a more balanced build, Oloch has become even more essential to a large party and Jirelle is still the true all-star of the group.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play nearly as much, and I haven't been able to play a few of the characters past adventure deck 1. Haven't finished part 6 yet, but here's a very short summary of my findings.

Damiel - Still ridiculous. There are many threads about this :P

Oloch - Extremely impressive support character that can still break heads if needed. Doles out impressive bonuses, and offers healing and support through his powers and spells. I think his sweet spot is actually 2-3 players, to get the most out of his reveal bonus.

Jirelle - I've actually been struggling with her to get finesse weapons. There seems to be proportionately fewer the further you go, and a few just aren't that good to keep around (like the 2 weapons that can add stealth to your combat check. Seriously? Merisiel is the only character in this set that has stealth!). Still, her ability to re-roll just about anything and move at the end of her turn while on a ship has been very powerful.

Lirianne - Combat powerhouse with a great wisdom score to boot. Low hand size and focus on weapons/armor makes it a bit difficult for her to handle some banes, but Deadeye offers some scouting and avoiding abilities.

Feiya - She can rip through monster infested areas with the new spells that give you combat checks each turn + Man's Promise. Barriers are just about no obstacle to her.

Seltyiel - I figure experiences will be a lot different depending on which role you give him. I picked Marauder, which really helps out with barriers and ships. His hand size is better than most weapon users, and he generally has few problems making his combat checks with enough power feats. Still not the most impressive party member, but he has his uses.


My thoughts overlap with many of those of Mechalibur

Jirelle – Probably the character I feel I misjudged the most. Jirelle good at everything, but not great at anything. Early in the Adventure Path she dominated every challenge, but in the latter half of the campaign I found that she struggled to keep up with the increasing difficulties of checks. She can still function well, especially with her ability to reroll, but she needs help to keep up in the second half of the campaign. Her large hand size does give her flexibility to set up some interesting combinations (she is a natural for the aristocratic combo) and allow her to use cards like duelist gloves to alternate between keeping vital cards in hand an cycling cards to keep her deck moving.

Feiya - Probably my favorite character in the set. I think her recharge power makes she is the best support character in the game, and adds an interesting layer of deck building strategy. She makes everyone better at almost every bane, but can still hold her own on individual checks. The lack of acrane exclusive spells in AP 5 and 6 hurt her a bit, but that is mitigated by her blessing power, which I find the second best power of its type (next to Kyra in RotR)

Oloch – A solid support character, who I don’t think I properly maximize, perhaps because I play with Feiya who does most of the heavy lifting when it comes to checks. Still, his high combat dice, amazingly strong blessing power (which allows him to recharge high level spells that end up in his discard pile), healing powers and ability to increase checks make him incredibly versatile. I rarely have him explore more than once or twice on a turn, but he makes sure the team wins the checks it has to win.

Alahazra – Her scouting potential is ridiculously powerful and changes the game for everyone. I was surprised how passive my play style became when using her. I rarely bother to explore with her; she defines the game without ever needing to expose herself directly to danger. When you play her properly she allows you to reveal the majority of the cards you encounter in any given session.

Seltyiel – He is great at combat, and can take the vast majority of monsters without any outside support. He can be an effective character, especially when played with Alahazra who allows him to maximize his strengths and avoid his weaknesses. But that says more about the strength of Alahazra than of Seltyiel

Damiel –Not much more to say. Damiel is capable of acting as the strongest individual character in the set or as an incredibly strong support character, I find Damiel the strongest character in the set.

Liranne – She ended up disappointing me as well. As someone who loved Harsk in RotR, I expected to similarly love his S&S counterpart. Her small hand size made it hard for her to both support your characters and retain the boons that she needs to win combat checks. She needs to hold unto both a weapon and Sniper Googles if she wants to reliable win combats in the late game, and doesn’t’ She doesn’t have any way to easily generate explores without discarding cards outside things like the aristocrat combo or ring of regeneration, both of which require to hold even more cards in hand.


Ilpalazo wrote:

Now that some groups are pretty much finished their first runthrough of S&S - would love folks like Mechalibur, Joshua, Orbis and Andrew to come back and give a final assessment of the characters, I will be doing the same in about a month once we are done AP6.

So far, Damiel has gone up a bit in my estimation with a more balanced build, Oloch has become even more essential to a large party and Jirelle is still the true all-star of the group.

Pleased as I am to be included on this list, I don't feel I can make a reasonably accurate contribution here. My game time has been slow the past couple months and I've only got one S&S game going - and it's with RotR characters! (I wanted to do my favorite [Lini], and my brother happened to pick RotR Ezren. Amusingly enough, this was the same pair of characters I had that conquered RotR, but with a different Ezren player)

I will say that I seem to have underestimated Jirrelle, Oloch, and Feiya. I considered them all solid-to-fairly-good, but judging by the glowing recommendations I've been seeing them get for some time, I shouldn't have glossed over them as much as I did. Of course, with the massive influx of characters we got, most of my attention was caught up by the new characters of my favorite type - divine spell caster types. Feiya in particular I want to look at again - of all the arcane only casters' she's the only one besides Amaryllis that's caught my attention, but even considering that she's being rated higher than I expected by the others.


If anyone has finished with any of the returning RotRL characters, I'd love to hear about it. I specifically chose not to play as any of them since they were fairly similar to their first incarnations (well, except Lini), and I'm curious how well they match up in this new set.

If I had to re-rank the characters based on late game experience, it would probably look something like this (characters marked with * are ones I haven't gotten to deck 6, and are guesses that could very well be inaccurate.)

Damiel tier:

Damiel

Great tier:

Alzahara*
Feiya
Jirelle
Merisiel*
Oloch

Good tier:

Lem*
Seltyiel
Valeros*

Okay tier:

Lirianne
Lini*

This is very tentative, and I'd love to hear some different opinions.

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