I just think there are plenty of other characters who handle combat in a sufficiently awesome capacity but still offer utility, like the example of Valeros.
I've been playing solo with Seltyiel, Lem, Lirianne, and Merisel. It seems like having Lem follow Seltyiel around for help with barriers and such makes for a deadly combo, especially since Seltyiel handles combat with little to no assistance.I suppose, but in my experience, Valeros is better at beating combat checks than Seltyiel because A. he has a better strength die, B. he can use two handed weapons (usually stronger) without interfering with his powers, and C. he can recharge all his weapons for a nice boost instead of discarding them. He's also slightly better out of combat with the fortitude and diplomacy skill, and he provides a combat boost for his buddy (very good with Lem).
A lot of people are saying Seltyiel gets better with more characters, but so does everyone! The difference is Seltyiel is going from mediocre to decent, while someone like Valeros is going from decent to great.
This is an excellent point. I found in the playtest that a 2-man party of Lem + Valeros was (almost) unstoppable; together they could generally deal with almost any issue, with the down-sides being that they generally work best at the same location and there were still be a good few checks that you'll have long odds of making. Though, this last point seems to be the case with just about every character or combo of characters.
Yes, I like to take Lem next to a combat beast and have Lem support the crap out of them. Valeros works well because he supports Lem back, but I've found that supporting an Arcane powerhouse (RotR Seoni is the one I've done the most with) also works very well; due to the nature of spellslingers in general, they can move through a location faster (especially with Haste) and Lem can not only support their checks but offer healing.
Of course, there's a third category, one that RotR Lini falls in and I suspect Damiel may land in - characters that are so good at combat and non-combat, they don't particularly care if Lem is there, and so the party doesn't really care if they stick together (as a general rule - in Damiel's case, Lem likes the d6 combat support Damiel offers). Arcane Pretender Flenta may fall into this category as well.
Short version: I already have characters who win almost all combat checks late game, why would I give up flexibility to get someone who is better at combat?
I think people are assessing the value of die rolling, particular for combat, incorrectly. PACG as a general rule, does not reward you for high die rolls, it it punishes you for low die rolls. What matters is the percentage chance that you beat a threshold and how many resources you spend, not how high you roll.
Let's say, for argument's sake, late-game Seltyiel [Spellblade] is the best combat character around and wins his fights 99% of the time (though, this assumes he always has his spells and weapons in hand), for the low low cost of recharging a card.
That may sound impressive, but you need something to compare it to. Honestly, how often does someone like Seelah or Valeros lose late game combat checks? The answer is "almost never", but let's say for the sake of argument its 95%, or 1-20 fights (and my hunch is that your actual odds may be better than that) You are giving up a huge amount of flexibility for what is a very minor increase in combat performance. Marauder Sltiel wins all of his combat checks too, but he at least gains some individual options against non-combat banes and ships.
Damiel has one gigantic flaw: He cannot reliably acquire his spells (especially divine ones). He really requires there to be a caster in the party that can hand him down their old spells between adventures. He only gains the Arcane and Divine skills while casting.
Damiel only has a few spells to worry about (2 to start) and there are other ways to get boons, such as loot. To say nothing of simply using boons to acquire them... and you can get most spells with a wisdom or intelligence check, you know. It's an issue, but hardly one I'd call a "gigantic flaw."
Short version: I already have characters who win almost all combat checks late game, why would I give up flexibility to get someone who is better at combat?
I think people are assessing the value of die rolling, particular for combat, incorrectly. PACG as a general rule, does not reward you for high die rolls, it it punishes you for low die rolls. What matters is the percentage chance that you beat a threshold and how many resources you spend, not how high you roll.
Let's say, for argument's sake, late-game Seltyiel [Spellblade] is the best combat character around and wins his fights 99% of the time (though, this assumes he always has his spells and weapons in hand), for the low low cost of recharging a card.
That may sound impressive, but you need something to compare it to. Honestly, how often does someone like Seelah or Valeros lose late game combat checks? The answer is "almost never", but let's say for the sake of argument its 95%, or 1-20 fights (and my hunch is that your actual odds may be better than that) You are giving up a huge amount of flexibility for what is a very minor increase in combat performance. Marauder Sltiel wins all of his combat checks too, but he at least gains some individual options against non-combat banes and ships.
I don't exactly disagree with what you're saying, but there are a few points that I think need to be stressed:
1) On the assumption that players play S&S with only S&S cards, there really aren't a lot of combat beasts the way there were in RotR; Valeros is still king of Melee combat, Oloch is not far behind. Still a big part of what makes Valeros so combat effective in RotR is the fact that the weapons in the set are generally quite powerful (even some of the basic weapons are quite good and plenty of better options are available from the expansions). Similarly, combat spells in RotR (particularly the Arcane line) could be quite good, with several various support-type cards making them better. With a "low-magic" setting in S&S, this could very well prove to be quite different. Already in just the base set, it's plain to see that the quality of weapons, for example, feels lower in S&S. As an example, in RotR, maces might have been one of the last choices for a melee fighter (leaving out the obvious ones like shortsword that no ever seemed to use voluntarily), but in S&S it might be one of the better early choices.
2) Take a close look at the villains from the base-set of S&S and compare them to the villains of the base set for RotR. I'm guessing you notice an important difference: some of the checks to defeat those villains in the BASE SET are harder than the checks to defeat villains from Chapter 3 of RotR. It's a safe bet that it's only going to get worse.
3) Consider you your character will get built over the course of the AP. In RotR, the biggest threats were almost always combat, so players build their characters with a pretty single-minded view on increasing combat more often than not. You're talking on average a new skill feat, power feat and card feat per chapter. Now as to all those WIS/CON checks that are already taking in the early game of S&S, figure that many of those either scale or at least increase significantly over the AP, but all those 1d6 CON/WIS dice don't go up much. By the time you have to make a CON 8 check on a regular basis, a character with 1d6 CON and no feats will have less than 50% chance of success on that check WITH a non-specialized blessing played to help. What this adds up to is far more complexity in character building, making most characters weaker in combat as a general rule than how things worked in RotR.
4) What a lot of this adds up to is a situation where teams may very well have to play in such a way as to specialize individually on very different skills; Valeros takes the big combats, Alhazra deals with the Pirate council, Oloch stands around healing and buffing and not exploring, etc. This isn't necessarily the only way to be successful, but different thinking will get you through S&S while RotR-style thinking often will not. Now, as the Seltiyiel in particular, I still don't think he's a great character. But if your party is finding combat increasingly tough (which I suspect will be the case), having him there to deal with an otherwise nearly impossible henchmen/villain is really something you might want to consider.
For the sake of Devil's Advocate, if you got stronger spells, you could cast them while recharging weapons against enemies that prevent weapons from being played.
Damiel has one gigantic flaw: He cannot reliably acquire his spells (especially divine ones). He really requires there to be a caster in the party that can hand him down their old spells between adventures. He only gains the Arcane and Divine skills while casting.
It's really not a big deal, especially with the plunder system. They're only 2 cards in his deck, and even without spells he's a powerhouse.
You don't need to worry about monsters being immune to your attack spell. You are recharging the spell, not casting it. You don't gain any of the spell's traits (not even Magic). Even if you did it's not an issue. Just use the basic force bolt.
Yes they do. It adds the traits of the spell to the check.
Regarding your other points, I'm only considering THEIR CURRENT POTENTIAL. I am not judging characters based on their performance in scenarios that have not been released. Even then, I suspect he'll be a one trick pony, but I'm going to wait and see how he performs before making any assumptions.
Captain Bulldozer,
You make a number of salient points, but I don't agree with your assessment on weapons and spells. Boarding Pikes are amazing weapons and, in the S&S campaign, are far stronger than any base weapon in RotR. If you want a one-handed weapon that you reveal RotR has no base weapons as strong as the rapier. And that's not even getting into some of the elite weapons like the Cat-o-Nine-Tails. Yes, weapons like boarding axe and cutlass are fairly lackluster, but I find the power of melee weapons comparable to RotR.
And then their are the ranged weapons. Fire arms hit far higher combat totals than the ranged weapons in RotR. I realize they have a downside, but the create higher combat totals, not lower ones. If you run into a high difficulty monster, firearms give you more than enough "gun" to hit these higher numbers. And then their is the power situational bonus of a weapon like harpoon (not to mention the vindictive harpoon).
As for spells, I think we may have rose colored glasses from later sets. The hitting power of arcane spells in the RotR base set is fairly low. Fire sphere seems like a better attack spell than anything I got in the first AP of RotR. All of this might change in subsequent APs, but for this set I am' not seeing what you are.
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I also disagree with the anti-Seltiel feeling - I'm not saying he is one of the best, but is IMO a much more playable character than Oloch (Favoured Armour and 4 cards, yuck).
His primary power is much more usable than some seem to think, largely because he can keep recharging those attack spells with his other power.
And honestly, I find his stats actually provide him with greater versatility than many of the other characters, because while he is lacking a big die in non-combat situations, at least he only has one d4 stat. I have found that he is often a good alternate choice for closing locations. And after all....
PACG as a general rule, does not reward you for high die rolls, it punishes you for low die rolls. What matters is the percentage chance that you beat a threshold and how many resources you spend, not how high you roll.
... so having many dice that are capable of beating multiple checks is sometimes better than having one or two dice which can easily beat a check.
Finally, I have noticed a lot of Intelligence checks in the game. While Seltiel (d8) is definitely behind Damiel (d10) and Feiya (d12), he is better here than 3/4 of the characters.
So far, I rate Jirelle, Lem, and Alahazra as the best characters, but I haven't yet seen the Add-On characters in play except Oloch.
Captain Bulldozer,
You make a number of salient points, but I don't agree with your assessment on weapons and spells. Boarding Pikes are amazing weapons and, in the S&S campaign, are far stronger than any base weapon in RotR. If you want a one-handed weapon that you reveal RotR has no base weapons as strong as the rapier. And that's not even getting into some of the elite weapons like the Cat-o-Nine-Tails. Yes, weapons like boarding axe and cutlass are fairly lackluster, but I find the power of melee weapons comparable to RotR.
And then their are the ranged weapons. Fire arms hit far higher combat totals than the ranged weapons in RotR. I realize they have a downside, but the create higher combat totals, not lower ones. If you run into a high difficulty monster, firearms give you more than enough "gun" to hit these higher numbers. And then their is the power situational bonus of a weapon like harpoon (not to mention the vindictive harpoon).
As for spells, I think we may have rose colored glasses from later sets. The hitting power of arcane spells in the RotR base set is fairly low. Fire sphere seems like a better attack spell than anything I got in the first AP of RotR. All of this might change in subsequent APs, but for this set I am' not seeing what you are.
I can certainly agree about both boarding pikes and the Cat-o-nine-tails. Actually, boarding pike is really good (this has changes since the play-test, where ships were only used in scenarios infrequently). In fact, by chapter 3/4 in the playtest, my Valeros was still using both of them (and that hints at something else I guess). The Falcatas are also easy to overlook. But Valeros is somewhat of a special case here; to him a cutlass is basically as good as a longsword. For the characters that are revealing weapons without discarding them, though, many weapons have weaker reveal dice and stronger dice for discarding/burying than was the case in RotR. Sure, some of them give big dice rolls for a single check, but the game consists of a lot more than a single check ;) As for spells, it's probably better for me to refrain from saying much til the actual cards are released. I will say though, that Holy Light was an amazing spell in RotR, but nothing kills pirates anywhere near as effectively as that killed undead ;) Also, it was easy to get arcane spells in RotR which gave you an Arcane skill + 2d6 (which is better than just about all Melee weapons found in the same set) almost right from the beginning of the AP, with items to statically boost those rolls coming in not long after. Just sayin' ;)
None of her first 4 power feats are really great. Hand size 7 is downright dangerous with a 15-16 card deck. Maybe you hit that annoying drake, fail the save, and roll a 4 on it's breath and then roll badly on your attack and that may be the end of you. If you had discarded anything else on prior turns you may not be able to draw
Not, really; she's perfectly safe with 7 cards, especially since she can determine the top card of her location deck most of the time.
And 99% of the time I would say high hand size is better than a low one. The drawbacks (somehow having to wipe your entire hand) don't come up very frequently, and the advantages are very easy to see.
I also disagree with the anti-Seltiel feeling - I'm not saying he is one of the best, but is IMO a much more playable character than Oloch (Favoured Armour and 4 cards, yuck).
In solo play, maybe, but Oloch contributes far more to the group in general, and is usually able to handle himself in combat. He also has a better stat arrangement in my opinion (low dex isn't really that big of a deal, and wisdom is important)
His primary power is much more usable than some seem to think, largely because he can keep recharging those attack spells with his other power.
It's not that it isn't usable, but in order to make the most of it you have to limit both your spell and weapon selection. Early on, it doesn't even add that much damage while other characters have much better ways of getting bonuses to their checks.
And honestly, I find his stats actually provide him with greater versatility than many of the other characters, because while he is lacking a big die in non-combat situations, at least he only has one d4 stat. I have found that he is often a good alternate choice for closing locations.
There is absolutely nothing good about his stat arrangement. Despite only going up to a d8, he doesn't actually have more balanced stats; in fact, he has a rather low total of 40 (most characters, but not all, have 42 total). Not only that, but the stat he's worst in is possibly the most important non-combat stat in the game. And that's not even mentioning how he can hardly make use of the skill gems like everyone else.
Finally, I have noticed a lot of Intelligence checks in the game. While Seltiel (d8) is definitely behind Damiel (d10) and Feiya (d12), he is better here than 3/4 of the characters.
Personally, I've seen more wisdom checks. He's decent at intelligence, strength, and consitution, but nothing great. His skills also don't come up that frequently out of combat, unless your ship sinks a lot (and with his wisdom, that's actually a strong possibility...)
And a reminder: this isn't just theory-crafting; I've played Seltyiel through all of the S&S scenarios, and his abilities and stats just don't cut it. While Oloch has a number of problems, he's always been a decent asset to the rest of the party, while Seltyiel ends up draining the party's resources trying to get him through a number of non-combat checks.
Short version: I already have characters who win almost all combat checks late game, why would I give up flexibility to get someone who is better at combat?
Without disputing Seltyiel's value in the path so far, I think his eventual worth is really going to come down to the quality of the unknown higher level arcane spells. He can be a seven-spell arcane caster who almost casually destroys combat!
Now I know your initial thought: sure, but he has to fill those seven spells almost entirely with 0-utility attack spells, to use his power. And as Josh points out, if that's your plan, then the Marauder power to give those spells group utility against ships and barriers seems nigh-mandatory.
But if it remains true that 90%+ of combats don't require the overkill that Seltyiel can offer, then you can instead go Spellblade, grab the +Int-to-combat for your everyday fights (up to a free d8+4), and fill most of your spell slots with whatever the best non-combat spells are (with an attack spell or two for when you feel like soloing Hirgenzosk, or w/e). You even eventually get to toss those excess weapons in your deck to recur your best spells. The notion that Spellblade is a trap pure-combat role, and Marauder is for utility is backwards---Marauder has a power to make an overly combat-focused Seltyiel deck not useless to the party, while Spellblade has a power to enable a more utility-focused deck by in effect replacing his starting combat power with an even less resource-intensive one.
Now, it may be that his skill deficiencies mean the party will be best mitigated if he explores less (using blessings to buff, except when at monster-heavy or scouted locations), but I think an important part of making the best use of *any* character is recognizing their role in the party, and having the weaker explorers use more cards off-turn, so the stronger explorers can hoard their cards to push faster on their turns. I suspect people's negative reactions to Seltyiel are exacerbated by mistakenly sticking with the (true in RotR) approach of "I'm a combat monster = I should be exploring lots".
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And a reminder: this isn't just theory-crafting; I've played Seltyiel through all of the S&S scenarios, and his abilities and stats just don't cut it. While Oloch has a number of problems, he's always been a decent asset to the rest of the party, while Seltyiel ends up draining the party's resources trying to get him through a number of non-combat checks.
And I forgot to mention that I have seen Seltyiel played in both a group game and a solo/2 character game, and he holds up his end well. Actually that group game includes Lem, Alahazra, Jirelle, and Lirianne, and he definitely keeps up. It is often the others who drain resources because of all of those d4's.
Bottom line, YMMV.
Which is probably a sign of good design.
And I forgot to mention that I have seen Seltyiel played in both a group game and a solo/2 character game, and he holds up his end well. Actually that group game includes Lem, Alahazra, Jirelle, and Lirianne, and he definitely keeps up. It is often the others who drain resources because of all of those d4's.
Really? Seltyiel has just as many d4's as everyone else in that group except for Alhazara, and all of those are in strength, which typically is perfectly fine to be low if you're not using it for combat (I think strength is the least frequently used ability for non-combat checks). Sel's happens to be in wisdom, which I see come up at least twice as frequently.
Alhazara has more d4's (well, one more), but she has the advantage of being able to check the top card of a deck ahead of time to see if it matters.
I'll say this: It's not really the d8 that is the problem, as 5 other characters max out at d10 and d8 vs d10 is not that significant of a difference unless you are doubling or tripling your dice. It averages to a +1 per die. Run the numbers and in 55% of rolls a d10 beats a d8. 45% of the time the d8 is equal to or better than a d10. (10% of rolls are the same, 35% better with a d8). When you double it, 61% better on the d10, 39% better or equal on a d8. So unless you are burning multiple blessings on the roll going from d8 to d10 is a minor boost. Not something I would ever say no to, but I wouldn't call a d8 bad in comparison.
Seltyiel's bigger problem is a lack of utility skills. +1 Craft is okay but +0 on:
Acrobatics
Diplomacy
Disable
Fortitude
Knowledge
Perception
Stealth
Survival
Every other character has at least two of these or a d12 to push the checks to with gems. The combination of d8s & no utility skills is what hurts. With his poor skills you'd hope for a d12 somewhere. Plus only 1 or 2 items limits his ability to have other ways around things.
Of course if he can get some good utility spells that help him make checks that will change the equation. As will going Marauder and getting bonus d6s on his barrier/ship checks. Fill your deck with 7 spells and you'll always be starting with 2d6 + skill for any barrier.
I really feel like he could end up being like Oloch (or Seelah) and being one of those characters that a lot of people hate based on early performance but comes around if you stick with him. But we won't really know for a few months.
It's pretty disheartening to hear reviews of Seltyiel's lacklustre performance against the challenges presented by this particular set. He looks so badass, but a I guess a wicked blade crackling with eldritch energy isn't much use when you're stuck swabbing the deck.
I'm playing Merisiel in RotR, and I've enjoyed the thoughtful, "utility belt" approach to the game she provides. "Oh, a Red Dragon needs charming? I can do that with my hat."
I was interested in trying a less cautious approach with this set, wading through locations heedless of danger (because I could kill it). And I wanted to try a caster, too. Seltyiel looked like the perfect fit. But if it's just going to be an exercise in frustration and the game really demands I take the role I'm less interested in (Marauder) to try to keep up, well, maybe I can try running him through RotR some day…
On another note, Kyra or Heggal are looking like really good choices for OP...
With all this talk of min/maxing, let's not forget that, for many of us, "cool" and interesting" wins out over "most balanced or optimized". I instantly liked the weapon/spell combo concept, and that's why I choose to play him. Having a character in your party that is not good at doing many things can add to the enjoyment by increasing the level of challenge and making you actually think and strategize instead of breezing through every situation.
I tend to agree; I'll take "cool" over "optimized" any day. The concern, based in these reviews, is that with Seltyiel, the gap between "interesting" and "no fun" is a little too narrow. I love the weapon/spell combo idea too, but I don't want to drag down the rest of the group's good time while I tool around with my cool concept...
It's pretty disheartening to hear reviews of Seltyiel's lacklustre performance against the challenges presented by this particular set. He looks so badass, but a I guess a wicked blade crackling with eldritch energy isn't much use when you're stuck swabbing the deck.
I'm playing Merisiel in RotR, and I've enjoyed the thoughtful, "utility belt" approach to the game she provides. "Oh, a Red Dragon needs charming? I can do that with my hat."
I was interested in trying a less cautious approach with this set, wading through locations heedless of danger (because I could kill it). And I wanted to try a caster, too. Seltyiel looked like the perfect fit. But if it's just going to be an exercise in frustration and the game really demands I take the role I'm less interested in (Marauder) to try to keep up, well, maybe I can try running him through RotR some day…
One of the reasons I didn't give any of the characters a "bad" rating is because they all are able to handle challenges, even if other characters can do it better. Seltyiel is all right at defeating most combat checks, and theoretically he'll be really good at it once he gets his role card (we'll have to wait and see). It's just mostly an issue of him not offering much utility like most of the other characters.
One of the cool things about this game is that fun and success can be had with ANY combination of characters.That is actually not true. The rulebook says it explicitly, especially in single player games. Try to play a solo game with the new bard Siwar. It's not going to work. Run a two player game with her and Ranzak. Good luck.
You could have an infinite loop of evades. Maybe the monster eventually gets so fed up with it that it just leaves the location deck.
One of the cool things about this game is that fun and success can be had with ANY combination of characters.That is actually not true. The rulebook says it explicitly, especially in single player games. Try to play a solo game with the new bard Siwar. It's not going to work. Run a two player game with her and Ranzak. Good luck.
Actually, that's not what the rulebook says:
STRATEGY: ADVICE FOR SOLO PLAY
Solo play is particularly good for quickly completing scenarios to
advance your character if you want to catch up to other players.
Not all characters should be considered equal for solo play.
Valeros is particularly helpful to other characters’ combat checks,
but that skill doesn’t help when there are no other characters.
Merisiel, on the other hand, is great for solo play, because she
gains bonuses when no one is at her location.
You can also play multiple characters if you like; we suggest
you try solo play with 2 characters. Treat each character as if
he were being played by a separate player (so if you’re playing
Seltyiel and Valeros, advance the blessings deck at the start of
Seltyiel’s turn and at the start of Valeros’s turn).
Some cards are particularly difficult in solo play. If you’re
playing Feiya by herself, and you’re hit by a Drowning Spikes
Trap, you might be caught on the spikes until you drown. When
you encounter a card your character just can’t deal with, remove
it from the game and replace it with another card of the same
type that roughly matches its power level but isn’t quite so
impossible to overcome.
Not considered equal does not mean not fun or potentially successful. I don't know if they did it in the S&S playtest but I know Mike has mentioned that in the RotR playtest players successfully soloed the game with every character.
On another note, Kyra or Heggal are looking like really good choices for OP...New Kyra is quite nice. Wastelander is beyond useless...I have no idea why they put such a poorly thought out spec on her. Fireflower is a powerhouse though.
How so? Survival checks seemed fairly common in RotR, especially late in the adventure path. And they seem to be even more common in Skull and Shackles. So that 2d4 power seems very helpful. And Wastelander can also bump her heal up the most and go to an 8 hand size. I don't see anything wrong with those powers.
Even the bonus for Survival to other characters at your location seems like it might be useful. A fair number of characters have Survival. And even those that don't would be better off getting help from Kyra and rolling 3d4 than 1d6 Wisdom. Couple that with another character that has the "X blessing always adds d12" and it works out really well.
You could have an infinite loop of evades. Maybe the monster eventually gets so fed up with it that it just leaves the location deck.
For the OOTS fans: #77
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I think people are assessing the value of die rolling, particular for combat, incorrectly. PACG as a general rule, does not reward you for high die rolls, it it punishes you for low die rolls. What matters is the percentage chance that you beat a threshold and how many resources you spend, not how high you roll.
It is amazing to me to hear this quote precede a statement that Seltyiel's Spellblade role is of low value. Taking down a late-game villain by recharging a card and *maybe* using one blessing is nothing to underestimate. I would not by any means judge the future difficulty of S&S by drawing direct comparisons to the difficulty of Runelords, either.
In addition, everyone's talking about recharging arcane spells to power up a weapon attack...but Seltyiel can go the other way. Imagine a late-game arcane spell like Runelords' Disintegrate powered-up by an additional 3d6 when you recharge a sword - it's an ungodly amount of dice to throw at something, at almost no cost.
Then, if you happened to fail the recharge on that super-spell and it went to your discard pile, you can get it back with his other feats. A rechargeable nuclear weapon? Who wouldn't want that in a scenario like "Thassilonian Sins," which has multiple villains that will likely need to be fought multiple times?*
Actually, my ratings are based on group play, and Seltyiel still struggles in group play. He has no powers that help out teammates, and if he focuses on noncombat spells, he'll have trouble using his character power. He basically relies on other players to even be halfway decent.
And as has been mentioned, he is literally the worst candidate for the gems.
I am going to break a personal rule of mine here and divulge something that I have not hitherto stated: I was in the Skull & Shackles playtest. I used a three-person party of Seltyiel (going Spellblade), Alahazra (Stargazer), and Lirianne (Deadeye) extensively. Based on that experience, I believe you are simply and vastly underestimating the value of this character, even in the early game, where Seltyiel might struggle more than some other combat-oriented characters like Valeros.
I would find it sad if this early negativity about Seltyiel prevents someone from choosing this character to play through the adventure path. I don't think this really gives the character a fair chance. The game devs know what they are doing, and would not have included him if he wasn't a viable option in some way.
The stat gem thing, too, is something I can't agree with. If the major complaint is that Seltyiel's biggest weakness is his zero-ability to take on non-combat challenges, then a stat gem at least puts a goalie on the net so that he can keep some shots from scoring on him. Birk's quote about expending fewer resources here is key.
Captain Bulldozer is probably very correct that his play-style is not for everyone. I can fully understand some people not wanting to take on the challenge of keeping Seltyiel alive so that he can hit hard when he needs to. But that's really no reason to argue that no one will find him to be a fun character to play, or even to argue that he's not well-suited to take on even the game's challenges you can presently see.
I believe Seltyiel is great. Not everyone will agree, and that's OK. If you find he isn't working for you, by all means drop him. The group needs to play very strategically when using him. I'd like to think that this sort of strategy will pay off. If you can figure out how to make Seltyiel work, I am of the opinion that (and it's really quite evident just by looking at his character sheet) you will see the PACG equivalent of StarCraft's Nuclear Missile, Final Fantasy VII's Knights of the Round, and Doom's BFG in one awesome package.
*A note of caution: these examples from Runelords are things I've played recently (as in, last night, with a bunch of people including Hawkmoon, who is I am sure envious that my Lem has Disintegrate and his Ezren doesn't - ha ha! Take that for monopolizing Poog early on in the AP! Now give M.D. the Monkey). I don't really quite remember and / or intend these Runelords examples to indicate that these gameplay elements are in the published S&S late-game.
I am going to break a personal rule of mine here and divulge something that I have not hitherto done: I was in the Skull & Shackles playtest. I used a three-person party of Seltyiel (going Spellblade), Alahazra (Stargazer), and Lirianne (Deadeye) extensively. Based on that experience, I believe you are simply and vastly underestimating the value of this character, even in the early game, where Seltyiel might struggle more than some other combat-oriented characters like Valeros.
I was in the playtest too, but didn't play him much... I think he was a little better then, for what it's worth. As I've been stating repeatedly, the rating I gave are only accounting for starting scenarios, and the game in the current version is VERY different from the playtest, especially after all the revisions to ships (now his low wisdom is a massive detriment, while it may not have been that big of a deal before).
Saying he's "okay" early game I think is a fairly good description. I never said he was useless or anything, I just think early game the other characters are able to handle more situations.
The stat gem thing, too, is something I can't agree with. If the major complaint is that Seltyiel's biggest weakness is his zero-ability to take on non-combat challenges, then a stat gem at least puts a goalie on the net so that he can keep some shots from scoring on him. Birk's quote about expending fewer resources here is key.
Seltyiel gets less use out of a stat gems than any other character, and he only has 1 item slot to put it in. It simply is not worth it for him.
Captain Bulldozer is probably very correct that his play-style is not for everyone. I can fully understand some people not wanting to take on the challenge of keeping Seltyiel alive so that he can hit hard when he needs to. But that's really no reason to argue that no one will find him to be a fun character to play, or even to argue that he's not well-suited to take on even the game's challenges you can presently see.
The thing is, he doesn't really hit hard early on. Adding 1d6 to a combat check really isn't that great, even early game. Frankly, I don't believe this is about a difference in playstyle; I think he's just currently lacking. Later on he has the potential to be fantastic for combat checks, but that's not what my ratings are for; I'll reevaluate the characters once further parts are released.
I believe Seltyiel is great. Not everyone will agree, and that's OK. If you find he isn't working for you, by all means drop him. The group needs to play very strategically when using him. I'd like to think that this sort of strategy will pay off. If you can figure out how to make Seltyiel work, I am of the opinion that (and it's really quite evident just by looking at his character sheet) you will see the PACG equivalent of StarCraft's Nuclear Missile, Final Fantasy VII's Knights of the Round, and Doom's BFG in one awesome package.
His mediocre performance wasn't a result of poor planning or lack of strategy from my gaming group, I'll say that much. I will continue to use him so I can get a good idea of how the characters progress, and I definitely don't mean to discourage anyone from playing a character they have fun with. He doesn't harm the group at all, and he can usually handle combat checks without too much issue, so he's never really been a liability; I just don't think he contributes as much as anyone else as the game currently stands.
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Seltyiel gets less use out of a stat gems than any other character, and he only has 1 item slot to put it in. It simply is not worth it for him.
These definitive statements ("is not worth it") of opinions are really rather out-of-place for a game that has numerous and multifarious paths to victory. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but they are not by any means indicative of the experience that everyone else is likely to have. My own experience was quite different from yours and your group's. Sorry you weren't able to find a way to enjoy this great character.
Her heal power was terrible in RotR and is still terrible in S&S. It's too expensive. You should never be skipping explores unless it's an emergency. I think in all of RotR I used the skip-heal maybe 4-5 times and we would have lived without it.
We used that much more. I think it depends on party make-up, size and playstyle.
She already has 1d10+1 for survival and has piles of blessings. I'm not sure what they changed the Serenrae blessing to be (since all the non-combat ones got an extra stat) but I would not be surprised if it was now CON/WIS so you'll have 3d10+1, plus more if you put any points in WIS. You should be fine with a regular blessing even. The power adds more dice to something she really doesn't need more dice on.
I don't think they changed any of the existing blessings. They added new blessings with double-powers. Sarenrae is Sarenrae. 2 die on non-combat Con.
To help others they have to have survival, as you say, which really is extremely limiting. If they have survival they probably have a decent die for it and a decent bonus so...
They don't have to have Survival. Any character can roll a d4 for a Survival check. And 3d4 > 1d12.
I'm not sure what they changed the Serenrae blessing to be (since all the non-combat ones got an extra stat) but I would not be surprised if it was now CON/WIS so you'll have 3d10+1, plus more if you put any points in WIS.
No blessings have had their powers changed. There are new blessing in Skull and Shackles that weren't in Rise of the Runelords and some of those add to two types of checks, but any returning blessing works the same.
And I think you'll find lots of people used her heal power. Especially when coupled with her power to shuffle or top-deck Sarenrae. In fact, one strategy I explored was to take the Exorcist role and no Cure spells. Since she was top decking her Sarenrae cards, sacrificing her free exploration wasn't much of an issue because I could explore so often with Sarenrae, place it on top of my deck and now that I'd have it again next turn for more exploring.
I think you might have just had a different play style with her.
Seltyiel gets less use out of a stat gems than any other character, and he only has 1 item slot to put it in. It simply is not worth it for him.These definitive statements ("is not worth it") of opinions are really rather out-of-place for a game that has numerous and multifarious paths to victory. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but they are not by any means indicative of the experience that everyone else is likely to have. My own experience was quite different from yours and your group's. Sorry you weren't able to find a way to enjoy this great character.
I never said I didn't enjoy playing him. That has nothing to do with whether I think a character is powerful or not.
Er, no they are not out of place at all. With only 1 item slot and no dice over d8 you really shouldn't run a stone. Your most useful item in the base set+deck 1 will be the masterwork tools. There is really no valid argument for anything else (other than "someone else in the party already has it") in which case you should probably take the regular tools.Seltyiel gets less use out of a stat gems than any other character, and he only has 1 item slot to put it in. It simply is not worth it for him.These definitive statements ("is not worth it") of opinions are really rather out-of-place for a game that has numerous and multifarious paths to victory.
I throw out the same argument for not taking thieves tools/masterwork tools in any of the decks I ran RotR with: I don't want them. I feel that is valid. Somehow we survived running a 6-character game through all of RotR without the world ending with only one character ever taking tools. I think somehow, we'll be able to do the same thing in S&S, even with the increase in Barriers. I'd be more interested in the Conch Shell or the Eye Patch.