Have we determined how broadly skilled a character must be at minimum for healthy growth?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

This game contains a large number of interdependent skills, but I'm curious as to just how much 'side work' an ultra-focused character would need to put in simply to continue qualifying for the one or two skills they really want to have.

For example, if I want to be a savant Dowser - making the Dowser still my highest priority, and all advancement decisions are made in light of this desire - how much time will I spend just trying to increase my Personality by learning other feats?

In the current balance of things, does an ultra-focused character like this seem possible, or have we discovered that the way skills are linked will mean that ultra-focus is effectively impossible and everyone will have at least 4 or 5 skills improving in order to advance others?

I think a pure crafter or gatherer should be able to truly be pure, without having to train combat skills to increase their attributes, (especially since recipes seem rare enough that they will be the biggest factor holding back the pure crafters) but I don't know if anyone has determined if such builds will be possible at all.

Goblin Squad Member

I think about it this way: If you want to be good at physics you have to take some math and thousands of other examples.

Goblin Squad Member

<Tavernhold>Malrunwa Soves wrote:
I think about it this way: If you want to be good at physics you have to take some math and thousands of other examples.

Aye!

The more pertinent example, that's been quoted in these forums before, is that a smith who wants to make the best arms and armour better have an idea what it feels like to swing a sword or get hit by one, or trot for an hour wearing the armour.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm really fine with the idea of character needing to cover a certain breadth by necessity - if it were possible to simply only advance a single feat I imagine there would be endless ways to exploit that system. The smithy needing to know how it feels to use weapons and armor makes sense, as reasons go.

My main curiosity is just how much ground one MUST cover, to keep your attributes up to snuff. I guess I should just bust out the spreadsheets and do some math.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I did the math a little bit and would estimate that the character that maximized dowser at the cost of sucking at everything else would need to spend 10-25% of their experience on things other than the dowser feats, in order to build personality.

With new feats coming up that provide personality, that number will probably drop imperceptibly. I need to do some math on the new data to confirm.

Someone who wants to be a viable dowser and also an arcane spellcasters can probably spend all if their experience on some combination of the two, but I can't estimate the ratio without more practical information than exists now.

Goblin Squad Member

I've been looking into this, which is horrible for you all because I'll probably never actually pull out a calculator for it.

I can say with confidence people won't be building four or five skills concurrently unless they mean to have those skills, not just as a way to raise attribute points. This is because as you go higher in level you get increasingly worse attribute returns for the xp you need to spend. Attribute xp is going to live in the realms of rank 1 and 2 abilities where the xp cost is cheap.

There's also a noticeable variation in xp per attribute between different kinds of skills. This is where that calculator would come in handy. What I would do if I weren't so lazy is test to confirm my suspicion lots of small cheap weapon feats gives attribute with less overall xp spent than things like production skills which (I think) give more attribute per rank but get super expensive much faster.

I don't see it ever being less than 10%, but anything past 20% enrages me personally.

This is a test I'm going to do with the next cold start, recording actual data as I train, and then blowing the dust off my calculator (application on the computer) to find out how much was extra.

Goblin Squad Member

In the current version, I was able to prepare a skill 20 plan for any Intelligence-based professional skill which spent less than 2% of his XP on anything other than the profession. That plan will no longer work as of Alpha 8; however, I wouldn't expect it to get much worse than 10 or 15 percent, varying somewhat depending on which specific attribute is required for the skill you want to train.

The stated design goal is that "We don't expect to see level 20 skills much earlier than we expect to see level 20 roles"; however, I don't believe that expectation is realistic given the systems and design we've seen. You'll probably be able to get to level 20 in a profession in 7-8 months, but there's no point to doing so since there won't be any demand for level 20 products for another year+ after that.

Goblin Squad Member

And we have not seen the role progression for ACE, or how their armor progresses.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
<Tavernhold>Malrunwa Soves wrote:
I think about it this way: If you want to be good at physics you have to take some math and thousands of other examples.

Aye!

The more pertinent example, that's been quoted in these forums before, is that a smith who wants to make the best arms and armour better have an idea what it feels like to swing a sword or get hit by one, or trot for an hour wearing the armour.

Yes, there are plenty of examples that make sense. But there are plenty that don't, too. I fail to see a rational explanation why learning to wear Light Armor (Chameleon, Scout, and Swashbuckler are the most efficient ways for a Wizard to raise Dexterity) should help me learn to wear Clothing Armor better (Clothing Armor Proficiency 2 requires a 12 Dexterity).

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

What if some achievements built attributes? Maybe a wizard could learn to wear cloth armor well by completing multiple ranks of arcane combat achievements, or a crafter could increase a needed attribute by completing multiple ranks of certain crafting achievements.

Plowing as many of my xps as possible into a single feat sounds incredibly boring to me, but forcing characters to spend xps on feats they don't plan to use sounds less than ideal, too.

Goblin Squad Member

One would need to be careful about allowing min/maxers too much flexibility to avoid spending their deliberately-limited-and-paid-for resource, Experience Points, by substituting things-done-in-game, though.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I fail to see a rational explanation why learning to wear Light Armor (Chameleon, Scout, and Swashbuckler are the most efficient ways for a Wizard to raise Dexterity) should help me learn to wear Clothing Armor better (Clothing Armor Proficiency 2 requires a 12 Dexterity).

From Seven Movements before Dawn: "Someone who intends on working and fighting in robes or other fabric clothes can be trained to be better aware of her movements and actions by spending time practicing moves in leather armors or a similar outfit. By training in an unfamiliar garb that is just a bit too constricting or encumbering the student will gain an understanding of how she can move more surely and quickly in any light garment."

In other words, instead of looking at something and deciding it isn't rational, create a rationale for it. And maybe a book title and a quote at the same time. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
In other words, instead of looking at something and deciding it isn't rational, create a rationale for it. And maybe a book title and a quote at the same time. :)

Do you mean to say that you fabricated the quote and the book title?

This rationale occurred to me, but I didn't find it compelling. Were I to learn that this is actually Pathfinder canon in some way, or that this is one of the sources used by the devs, I would be much more comfortable with it.

And to be clear, I don't have a real problem with the system as it is.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh, yes. The book title and quote are as fabricated as my reasoning there; I don't have a clue as to what the canon is.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Should clothing armor proficiency be moved to "int or per"? To align it more with the users.

Goblin Squad Member

To OP:

there is a world of difference currently between Int/Dex and Con/Per. Hopefully that will change when ranger/barbarian and sorcerer/bard are implemented

If you want to focus exclusively on being a Tanner, well.. getting your Con high enough means investing heavily into just about every con-based skill.

Nihimon wrote:
I fail to see a rational explanation why learning to wear Light Armor (Chameleon, Scout, and Swashbuckler are the most efficient ways for a Wizard to raise Dexterity) should help me learn to wear Clothing Armor better (Clothing Armor Proficiency 2 requires a 12 Dexterity).

ninjaed by Urman, but yeah: after being forced to run around in tight leather pants, going back to your robes feels just so much better. (Though by that rationale, rogues should need to train medium armor to build dex for their light armor skill..)

..maybe pretending to be a rogue puts you in the right mindset to "unlock your inner dexterity" ?

--

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Alternately: make every armor proficiency require an attribute other than one appropriate for the users if said armor. That would create diversity, possibly in a bad way.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Should clothing armor proficiency be moved to "int or per"? To align it more with the users.

Clothing armor proficiency is already int or per, in the public share spreadsheets.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Should clothing armor proficiency be moved to "int or per"? To align it more with the users.
Clothing armor proficiency is already int or per, in the public share spreadsheets.

Clothing Armor Proficiency 2 requires a 12 Dexterity in addition to either a 14 Intelligence or a 14 Personality.

[Edit] I should add that it's one of the very few Feats that doesn't award a bonus to all of the Ability Scores that are required.

Goblin Squad Member

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Okay, so for the idea of using as few skills as possible in pursuit of maxing out a single feat, this is what I got: (I apologize for the length, let me hide it in a spoiler tag.)

Spoiler:

Leveling Dowser
Dowser Level 1 Req 10 Personality
Boosts to 10.092 Personality
Level 2 req 10, adventure 6
boosts to 10.194
level 3 req 10, crafting 9
boosts to 10.301

! level 4 req 11 personality - diverge for personality boosts

Sage is logical - 3 levels of sage will raise Personality to 10.602. 0.398 Personality still needed.

Cantrips are divided between int and personality and are therefore ineffective for increasing personality directly.
Seneschal and Officer increase Personality at the highest rate, but Bluff, Handle Animal, Perform and Persuasion are lower in xp cost.
One level in each of the four Social skills increases Personality by .332 for 10.934
A second level in either bluff, HA, perform, or persuasion adds .093 and gets Personality to 11.027

Level 4 Dowser increases personality by .112
personality at 11.139

level 5 dowser req 11, adventure 18
increases personality by .115 for 11.154 Personality

! level 6 dowser req 12 personality

Diverge for personality increase

Bringing Sage up to level 5 increases personality by .227 for 11.366 Personality

Bringing the remaining social skills to level 2 adds .093 * 3, for .279

11.645 Personality

Increase four social skills to level 3 for .099 each, adding .396

12.041 Personality

Dowser level 6
12.159 Personality

!Dowser level 7 req 13

Sage level 6 adds .118 for 12.277 Personality

Increase 4 social skills to level 4 gaining .105 each, .420 total

12.697 Personality

Increase 3 Social skills to level 5, gaining .109 each, .327 Total

13.024 Personality

Dowser level 7

13.145 Personality

! Dowser Level 8 req 14 Personality - Diverge

Increase sage to 7, gain .121

13.266 personality

increase remaining social to level 5, gaining .109

13.375 personality

increase 4 social skills to level 6, gaining .113 each, .452 total

13.827 personality

increase 2 social skills to level 7, gaining .116 each, .232 total

14.059 personality

dowser level 8 adds .123

14.182 personality

dowser level 9 req 14
adds .125

14.307 Personality

!dowser 10 req 15 - diverge

sage levels 8 and 9 add .248 together

14.555 personality

lower 2 social skills up to level 7 grants .232

14.787 Personality

increase 2 social skills to level 8 for .119 each, .238 together

15.025 Personality

Dowser 10 adds .127

15.152 Personality

Dowser 11 req 15
adds .128

15.28 Personality

!dowser 12 req 16 - diverge

Bringing Sage up to level 11 adds .235

15.315 Personality

bring lower 2 social skills up to level 8 for .238

15.553 Personality

bring 4 social skills up to level 9 for .121 each, .484 total

16.037 Personality

Dowser 12 adds .128

16.165 Personality

Dowser 13 req 16
adds .131

16.296 Personality

!Dowser 14 req 17 - diverge

sage up to level 13 adds .259

16.555 Personality

4 social skills up to level 10 for .124 each, .496 total

17.051 Personality

Dowser 14 adds .133

17.184 Personality

Dowser 15 req 17
adds .134

17.318 Personality

!Dowser 16 req 18 - diverge

bring sage up to level 15 adds .267

17.585 Personality

bringing 4 social skills up to level 11 adds .126 each, .504 total

18.089 Personality

dowser 16 adds .135

18.224 personality

dowser 17 req 18,
adds .136

18.36 Personality

! dowser 18 req 19 - diverge

raise sage to level 17, gain .271

18.331 Personality

raise 4 social skills to level 12 adds .128 each, .512 total

18.843 Personality

raise 2 social skills to level 13, adding .13 each, .26 total

19.103 Personality

Dowser 18 adds .137

19.24 Personality

Dowser 19 req 19
adds .138

19.378 Personality

!Dowser 20 req 20 - diverge

raise sage to 19 to gain .275

19.653 Personality

raise lower 2 social skills to level 13, adding .26

19.913 Personality

raise 1 social skill to level 14 for .132

20.045 Personality

Raise Dowser to 20, you win!

Total XP Cost: 1,136,743 (11,367.5 hours, meaning about 473 days.) So, if you take this route exactly, it'll take more than a year to get this done.

Dowser: 437972
Sage: 358530
Bluff: 108066
Handle Animal: 77385
Perform: 77385
Persuasion: 77385

XP spent on 'extra' feats: 698,771

Basically if you chose to only increase 6 skills, you'd spend about 61.5% of your XP on your five attribute boosting skills. Obviously there are more efficient ways to do this, XP-cost wise.

Oh and if any of the math is off, I apologize - I did pretty much all of it in my head as I went.

Goblin Squad Member

Keign wrote:

Okay, so for the idea of using as few skills as possible in pursuit of maxing out a single feat, this is what I got: (I apologize for the length, let me hide it in a spoiler tag.)

** spoiler omitted **...

I have changed my mind about this.

Initially in Alpha I was annoyed at the amount of cross training for CON needed to get my miner up to scratch.

However in retrospect I realized the point in this is too dissuade min/max power builds. I think that is a very good thing.

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