As i say in this this post (inside the spoiler) i will DM the iron gods AP (probably in October) and while i usually ban the gunslinger class, i want to allow it for this AP because i feel that it's appropriate and it's theme is in line with the AP's theme.
The reasons i ban the gunslinger class are two, firstly the aesthetics of the class don't fit most campaigns (but in some they do, like the iron gods), and secondly because i have noticed that the APs and modules really can't deal with the target touch AC mechanic (especially at mid+ levels).
I don't think that the technological firearms will be such a big problem since they (those that target touch AC) do energy damage and energy resistance is common on monsters, is pretty easy to get resistance (resist energy, protection from energy) and there are technological items that can help against tech weapons (either by raising the touch AC or by giving energy resistance) and lastly. Just to be clear, there are no tech items that can help against projectile firearms except the force field but those are extremely expensive because of the way they work.
Now the only thing that somewhat reassures me is that there will be a lot of robot opponents, and some (maybe a lot) robots have hardness. That way (assuming i become real strict about the reading of adamantine bullets) the gunslinger will be effectively facing an amount of DR/- that can't be bypassed in any way (including the stupid clustered shot).
Now my fear is that the hardness thing won't be enough to deal with the gunslinger because there won't be enough enemies that have it, so i am trying to make a list with all the available ways that help you against bullets, here is what i have find so far:
1) Amulet of Bullet Protection
2) 2nd level spell Bullet Ward
3) 2nd level spell bullet shield
4) 5th level spell fickle winds (which offers a 30% miss chance, which can be negated by the seeking special ability)
5) 6th/7th level spell antitech field
Did i missed anything? (other than things that could protect against attacks or touch attacks in general, like mirror image)
PS. In order to avoid the double barrel stupidity i will house rule that the double quality is the same as the semi-automatic except with a -4 penalty instead of the -2.
Bump.
Also adamantine bullets bypass hardness of 20 or less. (linky)
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Really, you don't need all that. Some things to remember to keep gunslingers in check:
1) Touch AC only works within the gun's range increment (unless you're dealing with advanced firearms, which I assume you are not) So a Pistol might target touch AC - but only within 20ft. Flying enemies have suddenly become the Gunslinger's bane.
2) Bullets are expensive. A lot like encumbrance, this is something that is fudged a lot for simplicity's sake that serves as a really good equalizer.
3)Disarm, disarm, disarm. Don't do it all the time - if your player wants to be a gunslinger, then when that gun is in their hand they should be the ultimate badass. But nothing says they have to be every encounter. If you want to challenge them, take that gun away and make them rely on their wits for a little while. Unlike other classes that will have an armory that they're semi-effective with, once the Gunslinger wades into melee she's a lot less impressive.
4) It's cheap, but Dominate/Sleep/Hold works just as well on Gunslingers as any other low-Will class. You don't have to prepare spells that seem specifically catered to shutting out Gunslingers.
1) It's 20 feet for the pistol and 40 feet for the musket, also the deadeye deed doubles that (at 11 you get signature deed to that to make it permanent), also the distance weapon special (worth +1) ability ability doubles that. No flying enemies won't be a bane for gunslinger because at the levels that every enemy can be flying so will the gunslinger, so he will only have to move the first round in order to be in range or not at all if the enemy is within 80 feet (pistol) or 160 feet (musket).
2) Are you kidding me? 1 gp per bullet and 6 gp per alchemical cartige is expensive? What about encumbrance? Do you not know that 30 bullets weigh 1/2 lb?
3) Disarm? How exactly do i regularly disarm at range (especially with monsters)? Or do you mean go through everyone member of the party that is melee and go into melee with the gunslinger in order to disarm him?
4) Dominate is easily countered by magic circle against evil but i get your point, low will saves, nearly every martial class has low will saves and i am aware of that but none has the advantages of gunslinger, that's why i want to make a list of things that can make his life a little more difficult, because as i mention in the first post, most APs really can't handle a gunslinger.
I ask again, did i miss anything on the list i mentioned in the first post?
EDIT. Sorry if i come off a little hostile, it's not the best time for me (stress due to exams) and your post seemed kinda condescending, i am probably overeacting, that's why i apologize for my tone.
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1) Actually Ghosts are gunslingers bane, if you feel like giving a challenge to the said player change any monster ac bonus to deflections ac
2)Compare to arrows which cost 1gp x 20 arrows. A full attack you can make about 5 attack witouth minmaxing at lvl 11, thats 30 gp per full attack, regular battles have 3 rounds or more thats 90 gp per battle, considering 10 encounters per level, thats 900 gp worth of proyectiles per level average) At level one you can hardly afford more than 10 cartridges
3) Considering the gunslinger is gonna be as far as 40 ft to 20ft, at least for many levels, thats the regular movement rate of most monsters. Remember that gunslingers provoke when reloading and when attacking.
4) Running aps "as it is" means your players mos likely gonna have a cakewalk. Most aps consider all players are gonna be like the iconics and not min maxed in anyway.
Points you have to remember:
-Gunslingers suck hard for the first 4 levels , his damage is very low, compared to any archer, akin to a wizard with ray of frost
-Misfires happen as often or more than criticals, meaning there is a 10% to 15% chance per attack for a gunslinger to "stun himself" (by having a broken gun most players will prefer to quick clear it than to lose his +5 magical gun forever)
-Gunslingers lose all dpr contest versus archers
-Gunslingers are feat starved, they need 3 feats just to not suck at using firearms( PBS, Rapid Reload, Precise shot) and even so they can misfire
-Gunslingers are a tier 4 class, because they are good at ranged combat and nothing else
- At level 13 gunslingers "overcome" misfires but at level 13 most characters do crazy things anyways like the wizards which can blow towns with a blink. Thats also only if you dont multiclass at all. Most of mygunslingers build prefer multiclassing ofr various reasons
-If you wanna "nerf" gunslingers just ban double guns/muskets, most of the complaints come from this weapons
-Concealment and cover, are easy to come by and can be only be overcome at really high levels
@Mirwalk
Don't you think that no save stagger is a little too much a 2nd level spell?
1) Actually Ghosts are gunslingers bane, if you feel like giving a challenge to the said player change any monster ac bonus to deflections ac
That sounds like a very good solution, how do you do that? is there a spell that does that? is it a magic item?
2)Compare to arrows which cost 1gp x 20 arrows. A full attack you can make about 5 attack witouth minmaxing at lvl 11, thats 30 gp per full attack, regular battles have 3 rounds or more thats 90 gp per battle, considering 10 encounters per level, thats 900 gp worth of proyectiles per level average) At level one you can hardly afford more than 10 cartridges
Your numbers seem a bit high, but even if they aren't, that isn't a big amount for that level. At level one you don't need alchemical cartiges because you don't have more than one attack.
Misfires happen as often or more than criticals, meaning there is a 10% to 15% chance per attack for a gunslinger to "stun himself" (by having a broken gun most players will prefer to quick clear it than to lose his +5 magical gun forever)
First of all it's not forever, make whole or greater make whole (depending on how magical the gun is) can restore it. Secondly, between reliable, lucky, gun training, dwarf FCB and expert loading; i don't think that misfire is an issue at high-ish levels.
Gunslingers are feat starved, they need 3 feats just to not suck at using firearms( PBS, Rapid Reload, Precise shot) and even so they can misfire
No they aren't any more than any deticated archer is. They want the same amount of feats but the gunslingers end up with one less attack (archers want manyshot and gunslingers want rapid reload), also gunslingers have 2 bonus combat feats up to level 10 where rangers have 3 so i wouldn't call them feat starved (any more than any deticated archer is).
Gunslingers lose all dpr contest versus archers
From what i have seen the gunslingers lose by a very small margin to dedicated archers but those contests are rigged against the gunslinger.
Gunslingers are a tier 4 class, because they are good at ranged combat and nothing else
The issue is that they are too good with ranged attacks and they can't be stopped as easily as archers can be stopped.
If you wanna "nerf" gunslingers just ban double guns/muskets, most of the complaints come from this weapons
Read my first post.
Concealment and cover, are easy to come by and can be only be overcome at really high levels
How is 11th level in the "really high levels" range?
At level 13 gunslingers "overcome" misfires but at level 13 most characters do crazy things anyways like the wizards which can blow towns with a blink. Thats also only if you dont multiclass at all. Most of mygunslingers build prefer multiclassing ofr various reasons
The thing is that APs (and the system in general) can handle a wizard (up to a point) but the gunslinger is much more difficult to handle because of the weird mechanics it uses (the same holds true about witches because of hexes).
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That sounds like a very good solution, how do you do that? is there a spell that does that? is it a magic item?
How you do that? you just say it, you are the dm. Explanation is that some constructs may have distortions fields
Your numbers seem a bit high, but even if they aren't, that isn't a big amount for that level. At level one you don't need alchemical cartiges because you don't have more than one attack.
You dont ever "need" alchemical cartridges, its better to have them in order not to lose actions. Also numbers are not that high but its still a lot of money compared to any other ranged option.
First of all it's not forever, make whole or greater make whole (depending on how magical the gun is) can restore it. Secondly, between reliable, lucky, gun training, dwarf FCB and expert loading; i don't think that misfire is an issue at high-ish levels.
Truly i didnt know about greater make whole, given its a new spell. All the things you cited are things in which you sacrifice things. For instance you can sacrifice 5 extra hit point and no dex bonus for dwarf Fc. Or invest in distance/flaming/frost/seeking instead of reliable or lucky(lucky is a terrible enchantment btw).
Given however gunstraining is "quite no investment option", it does precludes you from multiclassing 13 levels, tought not a big issue, barbarians can rage cycle at that level, overcoming rage´s fatigue.
No they aren't any more than any deticated archer is. They want the same amount of feats but the gunslingers end up with one less attack (archers want manyshot and gunslingers want rapid reload), also gunslingers have 2 bonus combat feats up to level 10 where rangers have 3 so i wouldn't call them feat starved (any more than any deticated archer is)
Thats an unfair comparison, given rangers feats let them ignore prerequisites and lets them pick important feats earlier such a improved precise shot.
I do agree archers in general are feat starved, however archers dont have to take rapid reload, they just need precise shot to work, their next pieces will be feats that actually do something besides a feat tax, such as increasing damage output.
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Given all this if you are starting at level one and your gunslinger player is not a human brace your friend for a couple of levels of pain and regret.
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@Mirwalk
The issue is that they are too good with ranged attacks and they can't be stopped as easily as archers can be stopped.
They have the same disadvantages as archers, altought alchers can still do melee due having usually to higher str.
Can they handle social encounters?
Can they handle crowded spaces?
Can they handle traps?
Can they do something witouth a gun?
How is 11th level in the "really high levels" range?
Given that the APS last module is at 15.. but its true 11 might not be very high by your standards idk
The thing is that APs (and the system in general) can handle a wizard (up to a point) but the gunslinger is much more difficult to handle because of the weird mechanics it uses (the same holds true about witches because of hexes).
Yeah dazing metamagic and sacred geometry are totally fine in the system
@ElementalXX
As i said before technology can't do absolutely nothing against early firearms. Also if i have to go so out of my way and say that (with no explanation) a monster's AC is all deflection i might as well keep the gunslinger banned.
Sacred geometry is already banned and dazing spell is already nerfed.
Of course you need alchemical cartiges, you need them to make full attacks.
PF APs end either at 17 or 16, very rarely they end at 15. That means either near the start or halfway through book 4, that means nearly half the AP.
@Mirwalk
Thank you for bringing those spells to my attention, they aren't very strong (because they are low level) but it's good to know they exist and try to find the best ways to use them.
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It doesnt have to be all deflection, is just a suggestion. As in not all monsters need to have a +5 amulet of bullet ward. In my case i would just bring a ghost from time to time, the same way a bring a golem or a swarm from time to time, but thats just me.
Actually you dont need to make full attacks, some builds revolve more around vital strike altought they are not the most powerful. Is like saying you "need" silver weapons, you dont "need" them but its a good idea to have them as much is a good idea to have a cold iron sword.
So, you went from "I'm going to ban this class" to "I'm going to personally buff up every enemy against this class's main ability, or at the very least, use every ability the enemy has available to target and stop this class's main ability."
Do you have all your NPCs cast shatter on the cleric's holy symbol or the wizard's spell component pouch?
Same thing, really, except the wizard can take eschew components and the cleric can get a holy symbol tattoo, but the gunslinger cannot stop using guns (well they can, but they're barely better than a Warrior if they do).
So, you went from "I'm going to ban this class" to "I'm going to personally buff up every enemy against this class's main ability, or at the very least, use every ability the enemy has available to target and stop this class's main ability."
Do you have all your NPCs cast shatter on the cleric's holy symbol or the wizard's spell component pouch?
Same thing, really, except the wizard can take eschew components and the cleric can get a holy symbol tattoo, but the gunslinger cannot stop using guns (well they can, but they're barely better than a Warrior if they do).
Aren't we supposed to save our shatter spells for the alchemist?
Just kidding.
Probably the best way to deal with gunslingers is mosquito swarms...
Early and often.
Frankly I'm surprised alchemists havent invented the 'mosquito swarm grenade'
Again... Just kidding.
@ElementalXX
As i said before technology can't do absolutely nothing against early firearms.
you must not have noticed the Arc, Sonic, Zero and Gravity weapons or the railgun. The Rocket launcher can choose different kinds of energy types. then there's also the Vortex Gun.
mainly the fact that they're all touch all the time.
also if you just arbitrarily send monsters with higher resists of the types of weapons the techslinger has, then you might as well arbitrarily send out monsters with good touch AC.
You could trying changing guns so that they go through a couple points of armor(something like pistols ignore 2 flatfooted ac, musket ignore 4. advance weapons and future tech probably get more. FAKE EDIT: Looking back, this sucks even more then i though... you'd probably want to make it bigger or have it scale with gunslinger levels. Without hitting touch ac, gunslingers have 0 attack bonus.). Probably less work then rebuilding every other encounter for 6 whole books. Although you might want to give them gun training at level 1(maybe with the cavat if they multi-class before 5 they lose it? if that is something you are worried about) in this case because holy s&!# they will be worthless until 5(they are maybe slightly better then a crossbow user.)
Personally though, when playing gunslinger in RoW I was having a hard time seeing all the broken-ness, at least compared to the two-handers in the kingmaker game i was GMing at the time(even before I let the RoW GM bring in his summoner...). Yeah, I never missed the dinosaur bone golem(when not miss-firing), but it still was able to take out wizard and f@%% up the rest of us. And there were a good chunk of enemies rocking decent touch ac in the campaign. Mean while the Inquisitor was matching me for damage with a bow at end game, and she didn't even have a str bonus. Which is the point I realized, when people have so much attack bonus that ac is barely an issue, gunslingers look like crap because they get no bonus damage beyond dex to damage.
...Honestly, I think the best idea is to not change anything and see how your gunslinger does in battle(i mean actually take notes, going off of memory will probably skew things negatively for the gunslinger, perhaps unfairly). Is he min-maxed and making every battle a joke and ruining everyone else's fun? Then talk to the player about finding ways to make things more balanced. On the other hand, you may find that there aren't quite as many 7 touch ac mobs you were expecting and the gunslinger is just a really good archer(except when compared to the ranger with +6/+6 from favored enemy+instant enemy).
Don't forget "Dampen Powder" and "Destabilize Powder" spells.
Don't forget "Dampen Powder" and "Destabilize Powder" spells.
Ninja'd by Mirwalk at post 11
@ElementalXX
As i said before technology can't do absolutely nothing against early firearms.you must not have noticed the Arc, Sonic, Zero and Gravity weapons or the railgun. The Rocket launcher can choose different kinds of energy types. then there's also the Vortex Gun.
mainly the fact that they're all touch all the time.
How do those tech weapons can protect you against early firearms? i really can't see how.
The rail-gun and the rocket launcher are slow firing, which means no full attacks, which means not a big problem.
also if you just arbitrarily send monsters with higher resists of the types of weapons the techslinger has, then you might as well arbitrarily send out monsters with good touch AC.
No i am not going to do that, but you can understand that resist energy and protection from energy are low level spells (also available as potions) and i can use them when i need to, with early firearms there isn't such a good solution.
speaking of shatter. Shatter the gunslinger's powder horn. oops powder gone and can't reload unless he has a bandoleer where he keeps his cartridge.
What are you talking about? The cartiges are ammunition, you don't spend an action to recover/use them.
So, you went from "I'm going to ban this class" to "I'm going to personally buff up every enemy against this class's main ability, or at the very least, use every ability the enemy has available to target and stop this class's main ability."
Do you have all your NPCs cast shatter on the cleric's holy symbol or the wizard's spell component pouch?
Same thing, really, except the wizard can take eschew components and the cleric can get a holy symbol tattoo, but the gunslinger cannot stop using guns (well they can, but they're barely better than a Warrior if they do).
No it's not that, it's just that i need ways to ensure that the gunslinger won't ruin the game.
Tower Shields. You can't shoot through them and any npc warrior can use them. Hire a shield wall and a gunslinger is hurting.
That's interesting, is there a PrC or archetype or something that can effectively use that part of tower shields in order to protect others?
Shield wall teamwork feat and the phalanx fighter.
However I really think that as the game progresses while you will see the gunslinger do damage (duh he's supposed to do that it's kind of his thing -- I hurt things like the fighter, but with guns) you'll find that the built in misfires are really really going to hurt enough (especially if he is using paper cartridges).
The only time you'll have to worry about that and the range increments being enough is if the gunslinger starts building up rerolls for misfires.
Besides he needs:
rapid reload
all the archery feats
and
either dodge and mobility for deft shootist
or other builds for non-provoking while firing.
He still provokes while reloading and he still needs things to help his will and fortitude saves. Fortunately for the gunslinger wisdom is a secondary stat, but even so that alone will not be enough.
Just treat him as a fighter and don't sweat it too much -- the class has enough handicaps built in to slow it down.
For further consideration in this thread I point out just how prevalent misfires are going to become.
You've heard of the monk having the "flurry of misses"?
Well with the gunslinger you have the "rounds of click aww come on! I just cleared this thing!"
@Abraham spalding
I have seen archers in play (also played one in Kingmaker) and from what i have seen you very rarely need to worry about provoking AoO because you are in melee range, still it might be different with gunslingers since they have smaller range than the archer (though i don't think so since the gun ranges aren't THAT small), anyway i shall see how this turns out.
In your post you mention that alchemical cartiges increase the misfire by 2, to which alchemical cartiges you speak of? because paper cartiges fo the job just fine and increase the misfire by 1.
Also do you have done the (probability) math on misfires? because frankly i don't see anything about misfires in the post you linked
As i said before technology can't do absolutely nothing against early firearms.you must not have noticed the Arc, Sonic, Zero and Gravity weapons or the railgun. The Rocket launcher can choose different kinds of energy types. then there's also the Vortex Gun.
mainly the fact that they're all touch all the time.
How do those tech weapons can protect you against early firearms? i really can't see how.
The rail-gun and the rocket launcher are slow firing, which means no full attacks, which means not a big problem.
OH, i thought you were saying technology weapons were not able to keep up with early tech firearms, due to damage type.
also on to generally beating gunslingers, just add smoke/fog effects, blind him, etc.
also, 3d10 touch attack at any range is nothing to scoff at. Railguns has range increments of 200 ft, meaning with the right enhancements you can shoot targets a mile away easily. add in some gunslinger offensive deeds.
also, i'm not entirely sure deadshot precludes the use of slow firing weapons, it says make as many attack rolls as possible using your base attack bonus allows.
several other deeds go well with a railgun.
... i want to do this now.
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@Abraham spalding
I have seen archers in play (also played one in Kingmaker) and from what i have seen you very rarely need to worry about provoking AoO because you are in melee range, still it might be different with gunslingers since they have smaller range than the archer (though i don't think so since the gun ranges aren't THAT small), anyway i shall see how this turns out.In your post you mention that alchemical cartiges increase the misfire by 2, to which alchemical cartiges you speak of? because paper cartiges fo the job just fine and increase the misfire by 1.
Also do you have done the (probability) math on misfires? because frankly i don't see anything about misfires in the post you linked
It's later in the thread I think but I'll post up here instead for ease of conversation:
You are correct that with a standard pistol the misfire with an alchemical cartridge is only going to be a 2. However that's 10%
So what you do is you take 10% on the first attack. This means 90% of the time you will get a second attack 10% of that 90% is 9 so 19% of the time you will have a misfire by your second attack. this leaves 81% of the time you will get a third attack, 10% of that is 8.1 so 27.1% of the time you will have a misfire by the end of your third attack, this leaves 72.9% of the time you will get your fourth attack, 10% off that again means 7.29 putting us up to a misfire by your fourth attack chance of 34.39%.
You remember critical fumbles? Always happen on a 1? The probabilities for this are the same, but doubled (since it starts at 2).
Now remember a misfire means you missed the attack.
So we have:
10% chance misfire first shot. No attacks land
19% chance of a misfire by the second shot. 1 attack lands at most
27.1% chance of a misfire by the third shot. 2 attacks land at most
34.39% chance of a misfire by fourth shot. 3 attacks land at most
40.951% chance of a misfire by the fifth shot. 4 attacks land at most
IF you have a misfire on the first shot you can quick clear for 1 grit to have a full attack action on the next round (since you can change to a standard action attack and then spend grit to take a move action clear).
A misfire on any other shot means you cannot full attack on the following round -- you need either a standard action to quick clear or to spend grit and take a move action. Either way you have an upwards limit of 1 shot on that round with a 10% misfire rate.
This only takes into account a normal pistol and simple paper cartridges, if they have a double pistol those numbers increase by 50% each. Same with a pepperbox (which is a nice choice for early gunslingers since it gives you time between reloads and can delay the use of rapid reload early on).
Good catch on the pepperbox gun for low level gunslingers, with that you can postpone rapid reload to, maybe even, 7th level.
Very interesting numbers, sure it doesn't take into account various things* present at higher level that alter the numbers.
Anyway thank you for the analysis Abraham spalding, maybe the misfires issue is what keeps them in par with dedicated archers (maybe even a little weaker), if (90% sure) i end up running iron gods with a gunslinger PC i will see myself if that's true, of course all of that while keeping in mind that archery is the best combat style in the game.
*things like reliable, greater reliable, lucky (although weak it offers some limited help), quickdrawing/glove of storing a secondary (weaker) weapon, decide to continue firing with a weapon that has misfired (maybe because they know that the enemy is about to die) etc.
what i have seen... and your mileage may vary... is that unless the gunslinger is using two pistols his damage is about even with a good archer.
also the gunslinger tends to have weaker overall defenses. his touch ac tends to be alright but his regular ac is usually a bit lower and his saves tend to trend about 2 to 3 points lower on fort and at best even on will.
basically they tend to end like a harder hitting rogue. there are several spells that cramp up firearms you should look into.
when i get home i will see about getting you a list.
basically though yeah a very expensive pair of distance, greater reliability pistols will be your biggest worry but thats two plus 5 weapons we are talking about and a glove of storing... very pricy.
The gunslinger isn't going to ruin the game. It's not an amazing class. It's neat, it's thematic, and it can be fun to play once you (finally) get to 5th level and can do decent damage. But it really isn't anything to worry about.
Seriously, taking all these precautions against it really isn't necessary. In fact, it will probably make the gunslinger's player think (justifiably) that you're personally out to get him when you have all these tailored ways of defeating him.
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Damage about equal to archer - except the gunslinger hits much more often, even on 2ndary hits. If he's moderately clever he can't miss at higher levels. EG - wand of obscuring mist and goz mask... ranged touch no dex no dodge. Or a tiefling with darkness against humans.
We just finished a recent scenario (level 7) The gunslinger (musket master) took the demons apart at 9's, wheras my archer needed 14+ I noticed his bonus and mine on damage were similar 14 (me) vs. 11 him. However, I landed 1/4 arrows and he landed 3/4 shots regularly. Whenever he critted, goodbye foe (44+4d12). When I threatened a crit, I failed to confirm (needed 14+)
Sure thing if the archer hits all shots. However, on monsters with low touch vs. high armor - the archer will lose.
A gunslinger is a straight BAB class -- you have multiclassed, and into a medium BAB class. Hence you are 1 BAB behind him, however you have 2 extra feats than him and are +3 higher to hit, and didn't need an extra feat and extra equipment to simply full attack. Build differences matter and I can take an educated guess as to what each of you have but I would probably miss something, at first blush I would believe your defenses are probably better too.
Beyond that -- crits happen (and don't).