So, I have acquired the ACG, and I have to say, I like the classes there in. I know a lot of folks here don't much care for them, but to each their own.
The Investigator is quite interesting. Now, I don't want to get into a debate about the class per se, what I am wondering is, what reasons, mechanically speaking, would someone play a Rogue (look!! I didn't say Rouge!) instead of the Investigator?
For me, the reason I play a Rogue is for the skills. Stealth and Acrobatics are important, but the real important ones for me were always Disable Device and Perception. The Investigator gets half his level as a bonus to those two. And he can make any Knowledge check untrained (did they toss in a bit of Bard, as well?). Then the talents they can select are pretty nice. If your the "face" of the party, Expanded Inspiration is fairly good choice, for one. And Extracts. I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that Mutagen would be mighty nice to have regardless of build.
I don't know, but this seems like a better Rogue than the Rogue.
What are your thoughts on this? Yea? Nay? Or is it one of those 'only in this situation' deals?
Well some people want to play the stabby stabby rogue, which is better done by the slayer than investigator, but both of these classes do it better than the rogue.
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
At max with items and +1 inherent bonus to int
Str 20, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 28, Wis 16, Cha 16
Stats after extrat buffs and mutagen(dex) for range (Diminutive) [Undead anatomy III] {Diminutive skeleton}
Str 16, Dex 30, Con 20, Int 28, Wis 16*, Cha 16
*Stable mutagen vest
To hit: +15 BAB + 10 dex + 5 enh + 10 studied combat - 4 DA + 3 size + 1 WF = +40
Damage: +3 str + 1d2 short bow + 5 enh + 8 DA + 10 SC = 27.5
Transformation+UAIII+haste+heroism:
+46/46/41/36/31 for 1d2+32
UAIII+heroism
+42/37/32 for 1d2+28
Generalist Human investigator starting stats 20 point buy:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
At max with items and +1 inherent bonus to int
Str 20, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 28, Wis 16, Cha 16
Stats after extrat buffs and mutagen for melee (Large)[Giant Form I]
Str 30, Dex 18, Con 24, Int 28*, Wis 16, Cha 16
*Stable mutagen vest
To hit with buffs: +20 BAB(transformation) + 10 str + 5 enh + 10 studied combat - 6 PA - 1 large = +38
Damage: +15 str + 2d6 spear + 5 enh + 18 PA + 10 SC = 55
So: +38/33/28/23 for 2d6+48
Giant Form I + heroism
+35/30/25 for 2d6+44
Giant Form + transformation + heroism + haste
+41/41/36/31/26 for 2d6+50
7 feats and 8 talents left over for whatever else you want
I'd go Rogue over investigator if I wanted to focus on Intimidation or Stealth.
Other than that, Slayer or Investigator all day.
Yeah, it appears that the Rogue is the generalist of the three (Investigator, Slayer, and Rogue), but I feel its too general. There are niches for the Rogue to fill, and either of the other two seem to do the job better.
So, is there a job that the Rogue does better than either of the others?
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Yeah, it appears that the Rogue is the generalist of the three (Investigator, Slayer, and Rogue), but I feel its too general. There are niches for the Rogue to fill, and either of the other two seem to do the job better.
So, is there a job that the Rogue does better than either of the others?
Not really anything.As far as I recall there aren't any rogue exclusive stuffs out there, which hurts them even more. Some of the newer rogue archetypes are at least somewhat entertaining: Scarzni Swindler, counterfeit mage etc...
I do recall the halfling and kobold racial rogue archetypes were very good but well, they are racial archetypes, so won't see much uses.
Yeah, it appears that the Rogue is the generalist of the three (Investigator, Slayer, and Rogue), but I feel its too general. There are niches for the Rogue to fill, and either of the other two seem to do the job better.
So, is there a job that the Rogue does better than either of the others?
Something about that. Is a rogue better than an investigator/slayer even multiclass character?
Generally multiclassing is awful and that is why hybrid classes exist, so in theory the Rogues as an actual 1-20 class should be better than investigator/slayer. But is it?
Something about that. Is a rogue better than an investigator/slayer even multiclass character?
Generally multiclassing is awful and that is why hybrid classes exist, so in theory the Rogues as an actual 1-20 class should be better than investigator/slayer. But is it?
Interesting question. I will have to sit down and make a 20th level rogue and a 10th level investigator/ 10th level slayer, and see what that tells me.
I would like to point out, even pre-rogue there were at least 3 better skill monkeys. I think it was closer to 7. Each of those classes/archetypes was also more than sufficient in combat, making rogue a 1 level dip for class skills on his best day.
Investigator is now without a doubt(errr, now someones gonna prove me wrong watch!) the greatest skill monkey in the game. Even better he's actually mechanically a decent enough combatant, even with minimum resource investment into combat abilities(unlike the rogue who is mediocore even with all his resources into combat abilities), and has extracts to boost him even stronger. I have mine mapped out already for PFS and I'm super excited to play him. He does have a 1 level dip swashy (cause their a little MAD otherwise and I want dex to damage from the get go) but otherwise he's all investigator.
I was pretty disappointed with the play-test investigator so have just recently started sitting down with the new investigator, but every time I do I find I'm more and more excited about it.
Generally multiclassing is awful
I disagree with this whole heartedly. Many of the most broken builds I've seen abuse multiclassing. Not always, but often.
Generally multiclassing is awfulI disagree with this whole heartedly. Many of the most broken builds I've seen abuse multiclassing. Not always, but often.
In Pathfinder? If your talking about 3.5, then you are completely correct, in every way that you can be correct!
But I don't think its quite the same in Pathfinder. I could be wrong, but it seems like multi-classing is a flavor thing, now. Just like the prestige classes.
Yeah, in PF, been the only version of everyone's favorite game I've played now for 5 years. Many of the best martial builds utilize 2-4 classes. The Gunslinger really has no purpose after 5th, and nearly any multiclass will help him perform better. Swashbuckler is after about 7th. Wizards have really no purpose to not PRC out with the multitude of PRC's that don't loose casting and that are stronger than what they get from staying a pure wizard, pretty much regardless of school, barring perhaps capstone which my impression is most games will never see.
Classes like Alchemist and Summoner suffer horribly from multi-classing now (outside perhaps the Evangelist PRC which most GM's I know banned anyway).
Generally multiclassing is awfulI disagree with this whole heartedly. Many of the most broken builds I've seen abuse multiclassing. Not always, but often.In Pathfinder? If your talking about 3.5, then you are completely correct, in every way that you can be correct!
But I don't think its quite the same in Pathfinder. I could be wrong, but it seems like multi-classing is a flavor thing, now. Just like the prestige classes.
Loradin (Paladin Oracle Mix)
The Monktopus (abusing Monks and Octopi.. i mean druids...)
Ghaleena the Conquorer Ooze (Druid/Barb/Monk combo)
Anything that begins to look at MoMS....
The Defiler hexcrafter build (combines WHW and Hexcrafter)
martials dipping to Alchemist for multiple limbs...
Monk+Paladin+Champion of Irori.
I know I am missing a few...
Broken compared to what though? Not full casters that's for sure. For example, Loradin is honestly weaker then just going straight Oracle, even before they added Divine Protection. And for the most part Full Caster 20 is better then all of those. Unless you were talking strictly for martial classes, in which case ya multiclassing is good stuff.
In general, multicalssing in pathfinder isn't worth it. Yes in the huge amount of pathfinder crunch, there will exist some exceptions and good combos.
Also for some reason whenever I think of investigator I say inquisitor.
Broken compared to what though? Not full casters that's for sure. For example, Loradin is honestly weaker then just going straight Oracle, even before they added Divine Protection. And for the most part Full Caster 20 is better then all of those. Unless you were talking strictly for martial classes, in which case ya multiclassing is good stuff.
Pretty much this...
The only caster I can think of that really works with a dip is the Blaster Caster, but that is because there are a multitude of ways to get your CL back up, they spam 1 spell (so they really don't care as much about the delayed progression), and with that 1 level dip they can add as much as 30 damage to the spell (yay for Intensify).
But other than that.... yeah... casters are OP enough as is.
...And for the most part Full Caster 20 is better then all of those....Pretty much this...
The only caster I can think of that really works with a dip is the Blaster Caster, but that is because there are a multitude of ways to get your CL back up, they spam 1 spell (so they really don't care as much about the delayed progression), and with that 1 level dip they can add as much as 30 damage to the spell (yay for Intensify).
Ok, lets look at this a little closer. We assume level 6 entrance into PRC. I will only analyze full caster PRC's because loosing caster levels just isn't worth it. I am assuming you don't hit 20 (my impression from people I play with, PFS, and these boards is most games never hit 20) so loss of capstone is a non-issue.
2 bonus feats - some special feats that are very nice
Loose advancement of 1st level power - this ranges from sucks (Conjuration: Teleportation) to doesn't matter at all (Evocation: Admixture).
Loose 8th level power - Also varies, but many aren't that great and may be useful a few times the entire campaign.
Loose 20 free spells - This is probably the biggest cost clocking in at 9750 GP's using PFS scribe rules
Additional Cost to Enter Class: Ranges from high to negligible on the feat depending on build.
Diplomacy and UMD as class skills
+2 to over come SR of creatures with an alignment subtype(which is over half at high levels)
Endowments: Summons can attack through protection spells!!
Endowment: Permanent MIND BLANK!!!
Endowment: A bunch of minor highly circumstantial abilities.
Ability to over come an alignment DR, and grant it to an ally.
ALWAYS BE BEST ALIGNMENT VS ALIGNMENT SPELLS!!! I cannot overstate that! If you play any high level play the number of be this alignment or be screwed spells/abilities is very high. Blasphemy is nearly a give in at high level play. IMO, this is one of the best abilities in the entire game.
Once per day spell turning on an enemy as an immediate. Nice!
Power word kill AND True Resurrection built into one ability. Ally dies, enemy unconscious, swap that around, thanks!
IMO, that is better than what you loose in every way! No comparison.
Additional Cost to enter class: 2 feats, both are pretty much a tax depending on the campaign, but neither is worthless]
Add diplomacy and survival as class skills.
10 free druid spells. Versatility is good.
Versatile Spell Mastery - eh, I'll take it.
Cast spells with good descriptor at +1 level. Bleh
Put spell in open slot in one minute (later one full round!) There is a feat for this, so this emulates a lost feat! Nice!
Spontaneously cast Spell Mastery spells twice per day! WOW! Very nice!
Constant protection from evil: Worth a 3000 GP Item, so not terrible.
+2 dispel/counter evil stuff. Most stuff is evil in PF.
GAIN ALL THE SPELLS FROM GOOD DOMAIN TO SPELL LIST! A lot are blah, but a few (Holy Word, Holy Aura, Blade Barrier) are amazing to get added to our list. We'll take them.
No penalties from aging (worthless in most games)
Altruistic Guardian - bleh!
That prc is at least as good as what it gives up, and is full of flavor! Win!
Additional Cost: Spell Focus (Illusion) - may be a slight tax, but save DC's are good. If your a dedicated illusionist you were gonna take this anyway.
Bluff, Disguise and stealth as class skills.
Veil Pool - starts bleh and gets amazing, even overcoming extraordinary senses and changing disguises as a swift action. Sweet, though may be somewhat circumstantial for many campaigns!
Free Illusion spell at each level. Halves the lost 20 spells from giving up wizard levels. Very Nice.
Disguise illusion spell casting. Nice for Shadow spells so someone doesn't know what your casting for the +4 will save.
ROLL TWICE FOR SR CHECKS NOT LIMITED TO ILLUSION SPELLS - Amazing....
Maintain Illusion as swift action, meh
True Seeing as a free action! Very circumstantial, but very nice when you want it.
2 Illusions from 1 Illusion spell. Great for lots of spells for smart players.
Swift Action Alter Self + Disguise Self with the ability to gain a whole lot of special abilities. You can already do all these with spells, but now they're a swift action and not eating up spell slots
WOW! That one's even better than I thought the more I look at it. Some really amazing potential, swift action alter self is pretty amazing. Certainly worth the loss of wizard abilities.
Additional Tax: The feats range from very taxing to not a tax depending on build. Many wizards want one item creation(and gain one free at first level) and/or metamagic anyway. Skill focus is a tax though, plain and simple. If your build isn't using any metamagic or item creation then the cost is too high to consider though.(Note: Item creation change to spell focus for society, which you also get one free at first level).
Diplomacy and UMD as class skills. Nice.
20 extra skill points. You already get a ton, but 20 more is a nice bonus.
5 secrets. Each secret is equal to a feat, though you are more limited in selection (except for applicable knowledge). Still pretty sure everyone can find 5 useful picks on the chart. This right here balances the loss of feats for most builds.
+5 to all knowledge skills. Thats equivalent to 50 skill points! Spectacular.
2 bonus languages. Ehhh, whatever.
+10 to identify magic items. Probably won't misidentify a cursed item now. Not good, but eh, its something.
Free legend lore or analze dweomer daily. Both have costs, and reduce legend lore casting time from potentially weeks to 1 minute. Not the best ability, but you'll find plenty of uses for it if your clever, especially the one minute legend lore, using it on itself a few days in a row can break segments of the game
Not the best, but depending on your build equivalent to what you give up, though it may be too taxing for some builds.
I'll go ahead and stop there but other really good ones are Diabolist (even a one level dip is so amazing, the Imp Animal companion is SO Useful for so many things. May not be great depending on campaign fluff and if you die), Soul Warden(Master undeath and spontaneously cast cleric spells), Cypher Mage (Master scrolls, there are some really sweet combos you can pull off here), Genie Binder (there are some really nice buffs in here), and Bloat Mage (not my favorite personally, but I've seen them used to great effect in society. Also the only 10 level PRC you can complete in society)
All of these are at least close to equivalent to full wizard, if not straight up better. And many may be better based on campaign (like soul warden is typically bleh, but would be excellent for a Raven loft or Carrion Crown game.
Now, I don't want to get into a debate about the class per se, what I am wondering is, what reasons, mechanically speaking, would someone play a Rogue (look!! I didn't say Rouge!) instead of the Investigator?Well, it's sneak attack, isn't it? Also, flavour. Investigator might seem a bit too much on the side of law and order for some. Maybe if you wanted to play an Arcane Trickster? You'd need Rogue rather than Investigator for that.
That's all I've got. Although I do think the Investigator is more bard-y than rogue-y. I mean, spells and skills. I might compare and contrast the archaeologist with an investigator some time.
Except that the Slayer also gets sneak attack... same with the Vivisectionist.... and the sandman bard (if... you know.. thats your thing).
And flavour means little because the rogue has no flavour. The rogue is like the Fighter. They lack any distinct flavour because they are meant to be a generic base. The rogue in particulair has it even worse because at least the fighter points to "guy with point stick killing things with said pointy stick"... he does his one thing and ONLY his one thing... the rogue on the other hand was trying to do too many things at once and kinda failed at all.
Rogue may edge out vivisectionist for arcane trickster. 3 level dip.
Rogue (Thug) can do some crazy things. 1 level dip.
Rogue (Knifemaster). 1 level dip, then vivisectionist all the way.
Rogue (Skulking Slayer). May be able to justify taking through level 10. Maybe. Still needs a dip to work though.
Ok, lets look at this a little closer. We assume level 6 entrance into PRC. I will only analyze full caster PRC's because loosing caster levels just isn't worth it. I am assuming you don't hit 20 (my impression from people I play with, PFS, and these boards is most games never hit 20) so loss of capstone is a non-issue.
Some of those are pretty good indeed (you missed Bloatmage), particularly for classes that don't need to advance to higher level abilities. Honestly, though there's lots of very good reasons to not use even those PRCs. Take True Name on Wizards for example. That's an incredibly potent effect that requires 11th level Wizard. Not to mention cutting out on getting more Arcane Discoveries and there's enough good arcane discoveries that I often find myself hard pressed to decide which ones I want.
Interesting points. I just made an Arcanist, and now I think I am going to have to look at the PRC's, again...