After looking at the table (http://paizo.com/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html)
It appears that some effects can be accomplished rather cheap.
For example, a Ring of Shield only costs 4000 to make.
(SpellLvl * CasterLvl * 2000 * 2)
a Ring of Mage Armor only costs 2000
(SpellLvl * CasterLvl * 2000)
So, after halfing the prize on these items because I would be crafting them they only cost me 3000 Gold for a combined +8 AC.
Of course Mage Armor doesn't stack with regular Armor and Shield doesn't stack with a regular Shield but almost nobody wears Shields and there is a good amount of classes that could still benefit from Mage Armor.
I think +AC isn't that big of an issue especially since later on it becomes rather unimportant.
But what strikes me as a tad bit op is for example a Ring of Mirror Images.
2 * 3 * 2000 * 2 = 24000
So for the crafting cost of 12000 one basically gets a permanent 50% miss chance.
First of all, am I reading the rules correctly? Is this RAW?
Also, do any of you have experience with crafting and the long term effects it has on a game? Will I break the balance while using this, or does it just appear op and is fine in the long run?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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First off, is this for a character you're playing, or are you the GM?
The table you're referencing was written with homebrewing items in mind, which means the things you make with it are normally things a GM introduces to the game. If you're a player, you're welcome to make use of it to come up with your own custom items, but you should run them by your GM first to see if they will allow them.
Second, the table is only meant as a guideline for pricing magic items, not a hard and fast rule. The primary way to price magic items (which the book calls the easy way, and developers on the boards have spoken in favor of) is to compare them with items that already exist in the game.
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
italics for emphasis
So while a ring of mage armor might only cost you 2,000 gp by the table, we can look at the existing magic items and see that bracers of armor +4 do the same thing and cost 16,000 gp, and so a ring of mage armor should cost no less than that.
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Is this RAW?
RAW: "Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
RAW also says: "Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."
Hope this helps.
NINJA'd by the Nightstalker!
I am a player.
Well, bracers actually do a lot more than just adding +4 armor, so you either give the ring all those additional powers or it has to cost less.
I've talked with my GM about taking the crafting feats and making magic items for the group, but I haven't talked about the specifics with him yet.
We have a meele monk in our group has been promoted to be the new main front liner after our barbarian left the group. So I'm mainly trying to think of ways to make him stronger on the defensive side of things.
What?
That's the first I heard of an "order" and I can't find something in the rules or in this forum about it. Could you please link to it next time?
Besides, the item itself doesn't grant +AC, it grants a spell which grants +AC.
But instead of me casting Mage Armor (level 1 spell) I craft an item which gives the same effect. I could also achieve this with a Pearl of Power at the cost of 500GP without taking up an item slot...I really don't see why you guys are so freaked out about a +4 to AC.
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Actually a ring of shield do a lot of stuff.
When pricing items you don't jump to the last row of the table and chortle "how cheap", you pay for all the effects, and use the last row of the table as last resort it the other effects don't apply.
"Ring of shield":
It give +4 shield bonus to AC
Immunity to magic missiles
Price:
AC bonus (other) Bonus squared × 2,500 gp
4*4*2.500 = 40.000 gp
Immunity to magic missiles = similar to brook of shielding, but the brooch give 101 hp of protection, to price it as un unlimited effect doubling the brooch cost is reasonable.
1.500 x 2 = 3.000 gp
A ring of shield would cost 45.000 gp
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Constant ring of mirror images: it don't work. It will generate 1d4+1 image when created, but after the images have been destroyed it will not generate new images.
What you can make is a item that cast mirror image as a standard action with a CL of 3 (or more if you are willing to pay more).
In theory that item (if it uses a item slot) would cost 2*3*1.800 = 10.800 gp for an unlimited number of daily uses but most GM wouldn't allow it.
A version with that price and 5 daily uses would be more balanced and in line with other similar items and still a very good item.
As it is a custom magic item the GM ahs the final say about the price and if it can be done.
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Useful citation:
Magic Item CreationIf you have item creation feats (or access to those feats from cohorts or other NPCs), you might want to use time between adventures to craft magic items, either to create new items from scratch or add abilities to existing items. If the desired item is something out of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and you have the appropriate feats, the GM's role is mainly to approve or disapprove the creation of the item (for example, if the GM has decided that the desired item is rare, requires exotic ingredients, or is illegal or forbidden where the downtime takes place). If there is a chance for you to accidentally create a cursed item by failing the skill check by 5 or more, the GM should roll the check in secret so you don't know whether or not the item is cursed.
If you want to create an entirely new type of item (such as a ring that allows you to cast acid arrow three times per day) or add properties to an existing item (such as adding the flaming property to a holy avenger), the process is more complex and requires discussion and cooperation between you and the GM. The following sections address common concerns and problems about magic item creation.
Pricing New Items
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.
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What?
That's the first I heard of an "order" and I can't find something in the rules or in this forum about it. Could you please link to it next time?
Besides, the item itself doesn't grant +AC, it grants a spell which grants +AC.
But instead of me casting Mage Armor (level 1 spell) I craft an item which gives the same effect. I could also achieve this with a Pearl of Power at the cost of 500GP without taking up an item slot...I really don't see why you guys are so freaked out about a +4 to AC.
You can say the same thing for bracers of armor. The ring grant AC and immunity to magic missiles, you price it on that basis, not on "constant shield effect".
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After looking at the table (http://paizo.com/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html)
It appears that some effects can be accomplished rather cheap.
[snip - crafting guidelines]
First of all, am I reading the rules correctly? Is this RAW?
Also, do any of you have experience with crafting and the long term effects it has on a game? Will I break the balance while using this, or does it just appear op and is fine in the long run?
As others have pointed out, those tables are guidelines, to be used where other, similar items don't already exist. In this case, by the above formulas, you're pricing for a Ring of Continuous Mage Armour (+4 Armour AC - 2,000gp) and a Ring of Continuous Shield (+4 Shield AC - 4,000gp) and using the default table formulas. More appropriately, you might consider the Bracers of Armour (+4 Armour AC - 16,000gp), the Ring of Protection (+4 Deflection AC - 32,000gp), the Amulet of Natural Armour (+4 Natural Armour AC - 32,000gp), possibly even the Ring of Force Shield (+2 Shield AC, requires a free hand to wield - 8,500gp).
As for the Ring of Mirror Image (24,000gp), the Cloak of Displacement, Minor, (24,000gp) gives the wearer a continuous 20% miss chance. Seeing as that's not as good as continuous Mirror Image, we can also see that the Ring of Mirror Image is seriously under-priced.
I am a player.
Well, bracers actually do a lot more than just adding +4 armor, so you either give the ring all those additional powers or it has to cost less.
I've talked with my GM about taking the crafting feats and making magic items for the group, but I haven't talked about the specifics with him yet.
We have a meele monk in our group has been promoted to be the new main front liner after our barbarian left the group. So I'm mainly trying to think of ways to make him stronger on the defensive side of things.
As a player, you should mostly forget that table exists. As you can see, it doesn't price items well, at all. If you're making custom items, (1) look for existing items that do similar/the same thing. They most likely exist, and will show a more appropriate price. Or (2) tell the GM what you want and let them price it. Then if the GM under-prices it, at least you can't be accused of cheesing.
The bracers do not do a lot more than just add +4 Armour. It can be upgraded, but it costs more to upgrade, so that's kind of irrelevant. It is, in fact, exactly all it does. It even has nearly the exact same wording as the Mage Armour spell that's required to make them, so, you know, you might want to recheck the item.
What?
That's the first I heard of an "order" and I can't find something in the rules or in this forum about it. Could you please link to it next time?
Besides, the item itself doesn't grant +AC, it grants a spell which grants +AC.
But instead of me casting Mage Armor (level 1 spell) I craft an item which gives the same effect. I could also achieve this with a Pearl of Power at the cost of 500GP without taking up an item slot...I really don't see why you guys are so freaked out about a +4 to AC.
Because it's really powerful? Or how about, there's other items that do the same thing and cost more, so it should probably cost more? Or, you're being disingenuous in your arguments, and that sets off alarm bells for people? Or the fact that you can get continuous True Strike (+20 to hit for every attack you make) for the same price, and that's clearly op?
You asked in the first post "am I reading the rules correctly? Is this RAW?" You are reading it correctly, but you missed a step, which was pointed out above. You asked "Will I break the balance while using this, or does it just appear op and is fine in the long run?" Yes, you will break the balance, it is as op as it appears.
That's very helpful, thank you Diego.
I think I'm going to move away from "constant" effects and move towards "command word" effects. Am I correct in my believe that "command word" refers to a standard action?
It think that will solve many balance issues if I simply go
SpellLevel * Caster Level * 1800 and let the GM decide how many times a day the effect can be activated.
Making a simple ring of Shielding constant is completely unattractive the way you describe it, especially since it doesn't even give the ability to tag on armor enchantments.
I hope you see how crazy it is to pay 40k for an item that gives +4AC and an incredibly unimportant side bonus compared to getting a flat 50% dodge chance from an item that costs 10.8k.
>The bracers do not do a lot more than just add +4 Armour.
How about the ability to get +1 Bracers for 500 and tag on good armour enchantments? Yes, that's doing a lot more.
What is really powerful? The effect of a level 1 spell that holds a damn day and can be replenished with a 500GP item without expanding resources? Holy moly you are right, better nerf mage armor @_@
I see your point about True Strike. That would be completely insane, but I also wouldn't know how to price it because it has a duration of "next attack" and that isn't covered in the table at all.
The POINT of getting crafting feats is to either make stuff which is not available because the GM decided that there is no magic shop (which is a problem we don't have in our game) or to make stuff you can't buy.
Obviously if I start to make stuff, it's gonna be cheaper because I crafted it, you think my GM is still gonna give us our regular loot? Lol
He is going to adjust our wealth depending on what items I craft. (saving 5 k on that 10k item? okay next loot is gonna have 5k less gold in it)
So my reason for taking crafting is to make stuff that fulfills specific needs other items don't cover. Without that ability (which you guys seem determine to eliminate or make so incredibly unattractive that it's worthless) it becomes a wasted feat.
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Command word normally is a standard action, there is some use activated item that use a swift/immediate or even free action, but they normally cost more.
A constant +4 to AC that work against incorporeal touch attacks and is a shield bonus and immunity to magic missiles vs 1d4+1 images that last 3 minutes if not destroyed and that require a standard action to be activated?
Less crazy than you think. It all depend on your AC.
It you are already hit only with a die roll of 20 the AC ring do nothing.
19+ it halve the damage you take.
18+ it reduce the damage to 1/3 of what you would otherwise take
17+ to 1/4
16+ to 1/5
15+ to 2/6
14+ to 3/7 and so on.
The mirror image ring would give you on the average 4 images. The fist attack would have a 80% chance to hit an image, but that image would be removed. It the attack miss your AC by 5 or less one image is destroyed even with a missed attack.
Against the next attack you would have 3 images and so the enemy would have a miss chance of 75%, next one 66% and so on.
And, very important, it would cost a standard action to activate the ring for 3 minutes.
Both items are great for different characters.
A pouncing barbarian that want to charge and pounce without wasting rounds? The shield ring.
A spellcaster? It depend, shield is rarer than mirror image (a bard can't have it, a witch lack both) and magic missiles is a good way to disrupt spells. Decent damage and don't care about mirror images.
People that is already using a shield? The mirror image ring, without a doubt.
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I think I'm going to move away from "constant" effects and move towards "command word" effects. Am I correct in my believe that "command word" refers to a standard action?
Command word activation is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The character must speak the word, so the item cannot be used in a zone of silence. This is at the start of the Magic Items section, under the Magic Items and Detect Magic heading.
It think that will solve many balance issues if I simply go
SpellLevel * Caster Level * 1800 and let the GM decide how many times a day the effect can be activated.
The standard for Command Word items is 5 charges per day. You can see this under the Special heading on the chart, where it states "Charges per day - Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)". In order for it to be divided by 1, i.e. no price change, it's 5 charges.
Making a simple ring of Shielding constant is completely unattractive the way you describe it, especially since it doesn't even give the ability to tag on armor enchantments.
For characters who will never benefit from a shield bonus otherwise (two handed weapon users, two weapon users, archers, mages, monks, etc.), that item is very appealing. It's why it absolutely should cost that much.
I hope you see how crazy it is to pay 40k for an item that gives +4AC and an incredibly unimportant side bonus compared to getting a flat 50% dodge chance from an item that costs 10.8k.
An item that gives a flat 50% dodge chance does not cost 10,800gp, as far as I can tell. If you're talking about the Ring of Mirror Image you mentioned above, it doesn't cost 10,800gp, and shouldn't be allowed anyways. The Cloak of Displacement costs 24,000gp and only gives 20%. An item that gives 50% should cost substantially more than that.
>The bracers do not do a lot more than just add +4 Armour.
How about the ability to get +1 Bracers for 500 and tag on good armour enchantments? Yes, that's doing a lot more.
Which costs more gold. If you want Bracers of Armour +4, which just gives +4 Armour AC, it costs 16,000gp, and all it will do is give +4 AC. The continuous Ring of Mage Armour will also only give +4 AC, and costs 2,000gp. The Bracers can be upgraded, downgraded, given special armour enhancements instead of + modifiers, but all of that costs a separate, different amount of gold, constantly increasing. So, no, a Bracers of Armour +4 does only give +4 Armour AC, like a Ring of Mage Armour just gives +4 Armour AC. Anything else it does costs proportionately, and doesn't change the fact that +4 Armour AC costs 16,000gp, and no less.
What is really powerful? The effect of a level 1 spell that holds a damn day and can be replenished with a 500GP item without expanding resources? Holy moly you are right, better nerf mage armor @_@
Ask the Mage who gets an Armour AC, Shield AC, Deflection AC (hey, if we can do it with Shield and Mage Armour, why not Shield of Faith?), Natural Armour AC (see Deflection AC, only with Barkskin) and doesn't need to buy a single proficiency feat, take any armour check penalties, arcane spell failure chance, weight limitations from low strength, still has their hands fully free for spellcasting, and all at a price much lower than they would normally be able to get it at, how powerful being able to make items like that are. They'll probably argue it's not all that powerful, mostly because they're benefiting so much.
The POINT of getting crafting feats is to either make stuff which is not available because the GM decided that there is no magic shop (which we don't have in your game) or to make stuff you can't buy.
Actually, the point of the crafting feats is double your "Wealth By Level". You see, balance wise, every character is supposed to have certain amounts of value in gear at certain levels. These can be found in the Game-mastering chapter of the book. The crafting feats let you double your WBL, by having items valued at half their normal cost, via the crafting rules. It has even been stated that party members aren't supposed to benefit from one person having the feat, their items should still be valued at full cost for WBL, but I don't think many GM's actually enforce that.
Obviously if I start to make stuff, it's gonna be cheaper because I crafted it, you think my GM is still gonna give us our regular loot? Lol
He is going to adjust our wealth depending on what items I craft. (saving 5 k on that 10k item? okay next loot is gonna have 5k less gold in it)
Ah, he will be running it that way so. Fair enough. Though, technically, he should still give you normal loot. The feats are supposed to be beneficial to the person who takes them after all. If the GM always just balances it out 100%, then there's mechanically no benefit. Practically, the benefit of choosing your items still exists, but, mechanically, that isn't supposed to be a concern.
So my reason for taking crafting is to make stuff that fulfills specific needs other items don't cover. Without that ability (which you guys seem determine to eliminate or make so incredibly unattractive that it's worthless) it becomes a wasted feat.
As I said, the benefit, mechanically, is that your specific wealth by level should be effectively doubled. The benefit, practically, should be getting to choose the items you want, as opposed to relying on what the GM gives you.
For example, let's say the GM gives you a +1 Longsword. No one uses Longswords, but the Barbarian could use a +1 Greataxe. Normally, you sell the Longsword for half, and have to make up the difference somehow. With Crafting, you sell the Longsword for half, and can make the Greataxe, because it only costs half for the crafter. The WBL for the Barbarian doesn't change, a full cost +1 Greataxe (what he gets) and a full cost +1 Longsword (which he would have been stuck with without crafting feats) cost almost the exact same. The benefit is that he's able to convert it into the actual weapon he wants at all. Similarly, any items the GM drops can be sold for half, and then converted back into full value via crafting new items, ones which party members actually want.
People aren't trying to take away the ability to make custom items. Just saying that you have to price them fairly. Boosts to AC should be priced like boosts to AC. Items that are effectively continuous should be priced like continuous. Items that copy the abilities of existing items should cost the same as those existing items. That's also all in the rules, before the part where it refers to using the tables, as other have pointed out.
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2000 po? Sure, but your ring will let you cast Shield 1x/day for a 1 minute duration. A ring of mage armor costing 2.000 po would last only 1 hour per day.
For it to last an entire day you would need to craft it at 24th caster level, or something close to that.
Mavael wrote:
The POINT of getting crafting feats is to either make stuff which is not available because the GM decided that there is no magic shop (which we don't have in your game) or to make stuff you can't buy.
Actually, the point of the crafting feats is double your "Wealth By Level". You see, balance wise, every character is supposed to have certain amounts of value in gear at certain levels. These can be found in the Game-mastering chapter of the book. The crafting feats let you double your WBL, by having items valued at half their normal cost, via the crafting rules. It has even been stated that party members aren't supposed to benefit from one person having the feat, their items should still be valued at full cost for WBL, but I don't think many GM's actually enforce that.
WRONG. you do not double WBL unless you ONLY receive coins,trade goods, gems and jewelery. Magic items are sold at 50%, you craft at 50%. 0-sum.
This fallacy comes up too often.
This.
You do wind up with a slight advantage but no where near double. The biggest benefit is being able to get the items you want.
@ Mavael:
A ring of force shield comes close to doing what you want and costs 8,500 gp. It provides a +2 shield bonus to AC. It does nothing against magic missiles though.
As a GM I would allow a +4 version of this ring for 34,000 gp, which is 4x the base price. I would actually allow versions of this that scaled from +1 to +5, with the +1 costing 2,125 gp. Check with your GM though before you try this.
The thing to watch for is using the crafting rules to make items based on spells with a range of personal. Often these spells are designed to mitigate the problems of being a spellcaster of the type that casts the spell, but are specifically designed so that the caster cannot cast the spell on someone else. For example, shield is intended as a buff for classes that normally cannot use shields. One of the most common uses for the kind of item you suggested is for two-handed weapon wielder to gain the benefit of a two-handed weapon and a shield bonus at the same time. Since the two-handed weapon wielder typically can use a shield but gave it up in favour of more damage, having an item that grants a shield bonus while still using a two-handed weapon is like having your cake and eating it too.
True strike is another good example. It's not that big a deal to give a wizard a +20 on a to-hit roll, but it is a huge deal for an enlarged vital striking barbarian. Search the forums for "permanent true strike item" and you'll see a lot of threads on this subject.
This is essentially the reason that potions cannot be made out of spells with a range of personal.
So overall it is best to assume that a spell with a range of personal cannot be made into a spell effect item without serious consideration, and you should usually assume they won't be allowed unless they are spell trigger or spell completion items.
Peet
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@ Mavael:
A ring of force shield comes close to doing what you want and costs 8,500 gp. It provides a +2 shield bonus to AC. It does nothing against magic missiles though.
And it is wielded as a shield, so you can't attack with that hand while benefiting from the ring AC bonus.
Another two useful citations from Ultimate Campaign:
The Core Rulebook doesn't allow item creation feats to alter the physical nature of an item, its default size, its shape, or its magical properties. For example, there is no mechanism for using crafting feats to change a steel +1 longsword into an adamantine +1 longsword, a Large +1 chain shirt into a Medium +1 chain shirt, boots of speed into an amulet of speed, or a +1 unholy longsword into a +1 flaming shock longsword. Many GMs might decide that these kinds of transformations are impossible, beyond the scope of mortals, or not as cost-efficient as crafting a new item from scratch. Others might allow these sorts of transformations for free or a small surcharge. Keep in mind the following warnings.
Not All Item Slots Have Equal Value: This is true, even though it isn't expressed monetarily in the rules. Some item slots are very common and are shared by many useful items (boots, belts, rings, and amulets in particular), while some slots are used by only a few items (such as body, chest, and eyes). Allowing a character to alter or craft an item for one of these underused slots is allowing the character to bypass built-in choices between popular items.
Some Abilities Are Assigned to Certain Slots: Some of the magic items in the Core Rulebook are deliberately assigned to specific magic item slots for balance purposes, so that you have to make hard choices about what items to wear. In particular, the magic belts and circlets that give enhancement bonuses to ability scores are in this category—characters who want to enhance multiple physical or mental ability scores must pay extra for combination items like a belt of physical might or headband of mental prowess.
If there is a trend of all Core Rulebook items of a particular type using a particular slot (such as items that grant physical ability score bonuses being belts or items that grant movement bonuses being boots), GMs should be hesitant to allow you to move those abilities to other slots; otherwise, they ignore these deliberate restrictions by cheaply spreading out these items over unused slots.
Classes Value Some Slots More Than Others: This is a combination of the two previous warnings. Because most belts enhance physical abilities, wizards rarely have need for standard belt items. This means a wizard can change an item that's useful to wizards into a belt and not have to worry about a future slot conflict by discovering a wizardly magic belt in a treasure hoard. Likewise, fighters have little use for most standard head items, so altering an existing fighter item to use the head slot means it has little risk of competition from found head slot items. GMs should consider carefully before allowing you to bypass these intentional, built-in item slot restrictions.
Respect Each Crafting Feat's Niche: You might be tempted to create rings that have charges like wands, or bracers with multiple charge-based effects like staves. A GM allowing this makes Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring even more versatile and powerful, and devalues Craft Staff and Craft Wand because those two feats can create only charged items.
Before allowing such an item, consider whether the reverse idea would be appropriate—if someone with Craft Wand can't make a wand of protection +1 that grants a deflection bonus like a ring of protection +1, and if someone with Craft Staff can't make a handy haverstaff that stores items like a handy haversack, then Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring shouldn't be able to poach item types from the other feats.
GMs who wish to allow some of these sorts of alterations should consider using the original item as a talismanic component for the final item (see page 173).
and
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Part of the second piece has already been cited, but the whole quote has some additional information.
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Mavael wrote:
The POINT of getting crafting feats is to either make stuff which is not available because the GM decided that there is no magic shop (which we don't have in your game) or to make stuff you can't buy.
Actually, the point of the crafting feats is double your "Wealth By Level". You see, balance wise, every character is supposed to have certain amounts of value in gear at certain levels. These can be found in the Game-mastering chapter of the book. The crafting feats let you double your WBL, by having items valued at half their normal cost, via the crafting rules. It has even been stated that party members aren't supposed to benefit from one person having the feat, their items should still be valued at full cost for WBL, but I don't think many GM's actually enforce that.
WRONG. you do not double WBL unless you ONLY receive coins,trade goods, gems and jewelery. Magic items are sold at 50%, you craft at 50%. 0-sum.
This fallacy comes up too often.
This.
You do wind up with a slight advantage but no where near double. The biggest benefit is being able to get the items you want.
And you are, actually, incorrect.
Without crafting feats:
Either use gear less than optimal for your build, or:
Sell at 50%, buy at 100%.
With crafting feats:
Sell at 50%, craft at 50%.
I hope you see the difference there, it still racks up close to a 50% savings.
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It depend on the feat, kinevon.
Weapon and armor: 1 to 3 big pieces for each character. Maybe 0 for the wizard/sorcerer.
Wondrous items: the strongest, tons of useful items.
Rings: 2 for character, at most 1 back up.
Potions: useful but as your level increase the impact of self made potions on your WBL decrease.
Scrolls: good, but with the limitation of 1 magic item/day, like for potions, you will not produce a large value of scrolls in most campaigns.
Wands: good mostly for the healing sticks. There are other good wands but the action economy of having multiple wands is questionable.
Staves: 1 or 2 staves in a group.
Rods: probably you can craft half a ton of metamagic rods and get a good return, but most characters don't use that many.
Constructs: very few adventurers craft constructs.
Taking all that into account, craft wondrous items will get you a 50% extra WBL if you have the time to craft all that stuff, the other feats will get you way less.
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@ darkwarriorkarg, BigDTBone, Bob Bob Bob, Diego Rossi - Alright guys, I get it, I have overestimated the value of the feats. I will keep that in mind, particularly the UC quote, for future.
Weapon and armor: 1 to 3 big pieces for each character. Maybe 0 for the wizard/sorcerer.
I never quite got why an enhanced Haramaki (from Ultimate Equipment) never replaced Bracers of Armour. The enhancements costs the same, but it starts with +1 AC and can be upgraded all the way to +10, as opposed to the Bracer's limit of +8. No ACP, so no feat needed for proficiency, no MDB, no ASF, and weighs the same. Frees up the caster's Wrist slot and gives the caster a reason to use the often underutilized Armour slot.
Rings: 2 for character, at most 1 back up.
There's an item that lets you use the Neck slot for Rings as well. Hand of Glory, that's it. And a Meridian Belt lets you wear rings on both your feet as well, and while only two can be active at any one time, all four count as being attuned, and it's a swift action to change which two are the active two.
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I never quite got why an enhanced Haramaki (from Ultimate Equipment) never replaced Bracers of Armour. The enhancements costs the same, but it starts with +1 AC and can be upgraded all the way to +10, as opposed to the Bracer's limit of +8. No ACP, so no feat needed for proficiency, no MDB, no ASF, and weighs the same. Frees up the caster's Wrist slot and gives the caster a reason to use the often underutilized Armour slot.
Because a lot of GM and players (my friends and I included) feel that it is only a loophole that someone has inserted in the system, not a valid item.
Compare it with other armor and you will see how strange it is. There are 2 basic armors that have a 0% chance of spell failure, the Haramki and the Silken Ceremonial and they both benefit from the "Japanese items are better" rule.
What real difference there is between a Padded Armor and a Silken Ceremonial armor? Why something that protect only the belly give 1 point of AC when other armors should cover most of the body to give some AC?
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Rings: 2 for character, at most 1 back up.There's an item that lets you use the Neck slot for Rings as well. Hand of Glory, that's it. And a Meridian Belt lets you wear rings on both your feet as well, and while only two can be active at any one time, all four count as being attuned, and it's a swift action to change which two are the active two.
Both item cost important slots (and I would go around with a mummified hand hanging from my neck), but they are options that allow you to use more rings. Still compare 4 or 5 rings against all the wondrous items that you can use and I think that you will agree that Craft wondrous items is generally the best crafting feat.
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I never quite got why an enhanced Haramaki (from Ultimate Equipment) never replaced Bracers of Armour. The enhancements costs the same, but it starts with +1 AC and can be upgraded all the way to +10, as opposed to the Bracer's limit of +8. No ACP, so no feat needed for proficiency, no MDB, no ASF, and weighs the same. Frees up the caster's Wrist slot and gives the caster a reason to use the often underutilized Armour slot.Because a lot of GM and players (my friends and I included) feel that it is only a loophole that someone has inserted in the system, not a valid item.
Compare it with other armor and you will see how strange it is. There are 2 basic armors that have a 0% chance of spell failure, the Haramki and the Silken Ceremonial and they both benefit from the "Japanese items are better" rule.
What real difference there is between a Padded Armor and a Silken Ceremonial armor? Why something that protect only the belly give 1 point of AC when other armors should cover most of the body to give some AC?
I would argue that the very fact that it's in one of the core books, Ultimate Equipment, and that fact that it maintains PFS legality, mean it's valid. Whether it's a good thing that it's valid or not is another thing. It is unbalanced, I agree to that. The Silken Ceremonial is more expensive and has a Max Dex limit, while the Haramaki does not, and that's just comparing those two with each other. Take into account any of the other +1 AC items and trying to figure out how they slipped in leaves a big question mark. But they are in, so I figured I'd point them out.
Both item cost important slots (and I would go around with a mummified hand hanging from my neck), but they are options that allow you to use more rings. Still compare 4 or 5 rings against all the wondrous items that you can use and I think that you will agree that Craft wondrous items is generally the best crafting feat.Rings: 2 for character, at most 1 back up.There's an item that lets you use the Neck slot for Rings as well. Hand of Glory, that's it. And a Meridian Belt lets you wear rings on both your feet as well, and while only two can be active at any one time, all four count as being attuned, and it's a swift action to change which two are the active two.
I wouldn't have thought the belt slot was all that important for a caster class, it's normally reserved for Belt of [Physical Attribute], which they don't need as much. Anyways, just pointing them out for completeness. And absolutely no argument, Craft Wondrous Items is the most versatile, accounting for most of the magic item slots.
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"But they are in, so I figured I'd point them out."
Perfectly valid point. In my home games I will object to the item, in PFS games I will not use it but I will not object to other people using it.
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"I wouldn't have thought the belt slot was all that important for a caster class,"
Almost every class will be interested in using 4 rings, but the full caster classes include more than the sorcerer/wizard/witch trio and even them will like to have a constitution enhancing belt.
A druid will want a belt enhancing his physical stats, same thing for a cleric or oracle. A summoner (they are full casters masquerading as 6 spell levels casters) will want one for his eidolon. All the 3/4 BAB spellcasting classes will want a belt enhancing their physical stats.
They will want a belt giving them fast access to 2 other rings too.
It all depend what is the best options for your build.
Mavael wrote:
The POINT of getting crafting feats is to either make stuff which is not available because the GM decided that there is no magic shop (which we don't have in your game) or to make stuff you can't buy.
Actually, the point of the crafting feats is double your "Wealth By Level". You see, balance wise, every character is supposed to have certain amounts of value in gear at certain levels. These can be found in the Game-mastering chapter of the book. The crafting feats let you double your WBL, by having items valued at half their normal cost, via the crafting rules. It has even been stated that party members aren't supposed to benefit from one person having the feat, their items should still be valued at full cost for WBL, but I don't think many GM's actually enforce that.
WRONG. you do not double WBL unless you ONLY receive coins,trade goods, gems and jewelery. Magic items are sold at 50%, you craft at 50%. 0-sum.
This fallacy comes up too often.
This.
You do wind up with a slight advantage but no where near double. The biggest benefit is being able to get the items you want.
And you are, actually, incorrect.
Without crafting feats:
Either use gear less than optimal for your build, or:
Sell at 50%, buy at 100%.With crafting feats:
Sell at 50%, craft at 50%.I hope you see the difference there, it still racks up close to a 50% savings.
The difference is in play style not in mechanics. Without the feats then you mostly use the drops, and buy a handful of desires if you can locate them. With the feats you sell the drops and make exactly what you want.
If you have started the game with the expectation that you will get exactly the gear you want under any circumstance then I can see why you would find the feats weak (or try to justify a huge discount).
After letting the topic sit with me for a while and considering the arguments for and against certain buffs I've come to the conclusion that you guys are largely right.
The price for "continuous" effects on items is just too low. Combined with the ability to stick any spell on any item slot characters just get too strong for too little money, I honestly think the SpellLvl * CasterLvl * 2000 formula is broken and completely useless in it's combination with the duration modifier. It would be great if we got more realistic outlines usable by the players.
I will stick to creating command word items that need to be activated with a standard action, I think that should balance out the "powerful" effects and the relatively cheap way of getting those effects.
The need for strong defensive items mainly comes from the fact that monks seem to be s*~~ty front liners, but that's exactly what our group got and I'm trying to make it work.
I would stick to pre-generated items but unfortunately paizo has not blessed us with enough variate for my taste ^^
Thanks for all the input, I think I'll be able to now present my GM with items that are not game breaking, but still fulfill our needs.
Personally I'll be using the formula:
SpellLevel * CasterLevel * 2000 = EndPrice
for all my creations and depending on how strong the effect is we will decide how many activations it should have per day. Magic missles is freaking weak with a CL of 1 for example and could probably have 10 activations per day, while something like mirror images is much stronger and could be limited to 3 for example.