There have been a lot of threads complaining about underpowered weapons. With the exception of the first link, I just dug those up with about five minutes of random searching. Hell, I didn't even bother wading through the many firearm threads.
Why? Why does it bother people that a sling isn't as effective as a longbow? Isn't that kind of realistic? A sling could be useful, yeah, but there's a reason the longbow was a more popular weapon for elite troops.
Why are people annoyed that a crossbow is a less heroic weapon than a composite bow, for that matter? Of course crossbows take too long to load to be a valid "hero's" weapon.
Well, the thing is, Pathfinder has a bit of a contradiction. It's not a big thing—it's not something that ruins the game by any means—but I think it's the reason these arguments keep sprouting up.
Pathfinder, much more than any D&D edition prior to it, makes the characters feel like big, damn heroes. Like many games and stories, it tells us that the important thing is that the players feel badass—and it's not exactly all wrong there. And if there's anything anime has taught us, it's that the more impractical a weapon is, the more badass it is to use. Who needs guns?! I got swordchucks!
Pathfinder starts us down this path, giving us extra feats, extra abilities, and ensuring we always have options. But it doesn't go all the way. It keeps crossbows pretty much nerfed unless you're willing to spend a bunch of feats. Nobody in their right mind uses shuriken when they can just take levels in Zen Archer and get a much better result. And don't get me started on sling staves.
Pathfinder doesn't let you get away with using a sucky weapon, even as equally impractical or strange tactics like throwing your enemies, catching bullets, and straight-up punching dragons in the face are fair game.
Pathfinder seems to have a slight inconsistency in how "reasonable" it wants to be.
What if we designed a new prestige class, category of feats, or even a fighter archetype specifically dedicated to making all weapons equally feasible? A prestige class that might allow you to throw more shurikens in a full attack than normal, or to do double or triple damage on a single crossbow shot in exchange for an impractically long reload time?
Any thoughts on those ideas, or on my theory as a whole?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
martials suck anwyays be a wlizard
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder seems to be stuck between the simulationist design philosophy and the, well, fantasy design philosophy, which is not unexpected for a system using 15-year-old rules.
It appears that we have an Old Way of, for example, longbows being Just Better than shuriken, in competition with a New Way of a style-first, any-concept-flies fantasy approach, where a shuriken-user is just as viable as a longbow-wielder.
In other words... let's hope that 2nd Ed does away with backwards compatibility, so it can jettison the Old Ways which hold the system back.
-Matt
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder seems to be stuck between the simulationist design philosophy and the, well, fantasy design philosophy, which is not unexpected for a system using 15-year-old rules, rules with their own legacy issues, at its core.
It's also stuck between simulationist customers and anime-ist customers as well. There are a number of people out there who scream about how implausible it is that a muzzle-loading firearm should be able to shoot 4+ shots in six seconds -- or even one shot in six seconds. Others point out that Gunfights are Cool and Cinematic. Some people complain about the idea of characters making standing long jumps of 20+ feat, while others think this is Awesome even if unrealistic.
At the same time, wizards can fly, and no one complains about it at all, because even simulationists will generally accept that magical flight is magical.
So the effect is that Paizo gets a lot of pushback if they make the martials too unrealistic, but there's no effect too out of bounds for a high-level wizard spell.
The two immediately prior posts sum it up beautifully. Are sword-chucks cool or wildly impractical?
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are a number of people out there who scream about how implausible it is that a muzzle-loading firearm should be able to shoot 4+ shots in six second
No one shoots like Gaston
Makes those beauts like Gaston| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why? Why does it bother people that a sling isn't as effective as a longbow? Isn't that kind of realistic? A sling could be useful, yeah, but there's a reason the longbow was a more popular weapon for elite troops.
Why are people annoyed that a crossbow is a less heroic weapon than a composite bow, for that matter? Of course crossbows take too long to load to be a valid "hero's" weapon.
No, slings being weaker is not realistic. Real slingers are just as good at range. Firing speed is better in real life too.
Sling take more training than Longbows. Seriously, research sling training.
They are not simple weapons!
Crossbows? They are more or less equal with bows (but yes, I can see them simple).
3.0 D&D had slings bad because the designers confused slingshots with slings. PF just copy pasted.
I never said slings took less time to train. But we're not getting into this. If you really want to discuss this, go to one of the threads I linked (or find another—there's tons). This isn't the thread for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the record, I think PF is the best it can be. Rule 0 lets you run it simulationist style or run it by the rule of cool. It is up to you.
Well, that argument suggests that any rpg is the best it can be -- and also the worst it can be, since Rule 0 has an equivalent in literally every game with which I'm familiar.
It aggravates me that the sling is so weak because I want to play my unarmored Irish barbarian with his berzerker rage and his sling in his pocket, chucking stones, eating potatoes and drinking dark beer. I can't do that in PF by the book because it is terrible to use a sling in this game.
I'm not entirely sure what prevents you from doing that. The difference between a sling and a bow is 1d4 vs 1d6 (or 1d8) for a longbow, either of which will be dwarfed by the +305 damage bonus a barbarian routinely adds to his attacks.
I've been through a number of weapon threads. They're all full of conflicting historical jargon, throwing in the odd anecdote or video of a bow-wielding acrobat. They're not productive, and more importantly, they've been done.
can be, since Rule 0 has an equivalent in literally every game with which I'm familiar.
Die Size is how you show the table who the boss is.
It aggravates me that the sling is so weak because I want to play my unarmored Irish barbarian with his berzerker rage and his sling in his pocket, chucking stones, eating potatoes and drinking dark beer. I can't do that in PF by the book because it is terrible to use a sling in this game.I'm not entirely sure what prevents you from doing that. The difference between a sling and a bow is 1d4 vs 1d6 (or 1d8) for a longbow, either of which will be dwarfed by the +305 damage bonus a barbarian routinely adds to his attacks.
I'm sorry, but that's literally nonsensical. Is English your first language?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not entirely sure what prevents you from doing that. The difference between a sling and a bow is 1d4 vs 1d6 (or 1d8) for a longbow, either of which will be dwarfed by the +305 damage bonus a barbarian routinely adds to his attacks.
Well, slings have a little problem with their reload time...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*Sigh*
Maybe people wouldn't invoke the "Stormwind Fallacy" so often if it didn't apply so often, y'know?
I could as easily say to you, "Go play some free-form roleplay with your half-vampire waifu".
Yes, it's nice to use a sling for flavor. Everyone who uses or wants to use a sling has flavor in mind. They also want to use it and not suck. It is not very much fun to be a Fighter and be bad at the one job your class allows you to have.*
We play Pathfinder to roleplay. We also play it to play a game. It is not fun to be unable to contribute and to be constantly outshined by everyone else in the party. The question becomes, "What use am I to this group? Why do I even adventure?"
Die Size is how you show the table who the boss is.
I think this is a joke, Orf. :P
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder seems to be stuck between the simulationist design philosophy and the, well, fantasy design philosophy, which is not unexpected for a system using 15-year-old rules, rules with their own legacy issues, at its core.
It appears that we have an Old Way of, for example, longbows being Just Better than shuriken, in competition with a New Way of a style-first, any-concept-flies approach, where a shuriken-user is just as viable as a longbow-wielder.
In other words... let's hope that 2nd Ed does away with backwards compatibility, so it can jettison the Old Ways which hold the system back.
-Matt
Good post, but play that backwards. I don't need rules for anything other than simulation. If everyone is equal and everyone is badass, I'll just hash out the victory conditions with paper / scissor / rock.
They need to start kicking out more of the dumb stuff - punching dragons in the face, sword-chucks, using Performance to Stealth and all that jaz.
And here we have the dichotomy in an easy to parse form.
It's the Difference between Riddle of Steel, a simulationist fantasy rpg that tries to go for realism in its combat, and Exalted, a game where literally anything goes and the only real limit is your essence and imagination.
Pathfinder sits somewhere in the middle. Commercially speaking this is great.
At the table though I can see the gripe. And you know what? IF you enjoy the game that's fine. House rules can fill the gap. You can simply not allow the technology guide, the gunslinger, the monks and all that and stick to your early renaissance swords and sorcery game.
Or you can be like me. Say screw it and see where the rabbit hole goes.
That's kind of where I was going with the idea for a prestige class/archetype. Houserule and homebrew in a way to use these impractical techniques in a practical sense.
For the record, I think PF is the best it can be. Rule 0 lets you run it simulationist style or run it by the rule of cool. It is up to you.
Well, that argument suggests that any rpg is the best it can be -- and also the worst it can be, since Rule 0 has an equivalent in literally every game with which I'm familiar.
It aggravates me that the sling is so weak because I want to play my unarmored Irish barbarian with his berzerker rage and his sling in his pocket, chucking stones, eating potatoes and drinking dark beer. I can't do that in PF by the book because it is terrible to use a sling in this game.I'm not entirely sure what prevents you from doing that. The difference between a sling and a bow is 1d4 vs 1d6 (or 1d8) for a longbow, either of which will be dwarfed by the +305 damage bonus a barbarian routinely adds to his attacks.
This right here. Who cares what the actual die roll is once you add the damage from your stats and feats? In one adventure I had a gnome fighter using a double-bladed sword, because why not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
all of the threads you mention here, complain about to how to do more damage instead on how to play a roleplaying game?
all those people, go play some video game with hacks. I love using a sling for flavor, not for damage!!
I'm not sure what relevance this post has. Using a sling because you like the flavor is fine. No one said otherwise.
But wouldn't it be nice if you weren't punished by the game for that choice of flavor?
all of the threads you mention here, complain about to how to do more damage instead on how to play a roleplaying game?
all those people, go play some video game with hacks. I love using a sling for flavor, not for damage!!
I'm not sure what relevance this post has. Using a sling because you like the flavor is fine. No one said otherwise.
But wouldn't it be nice if you weren't punished by the game for that choice of flavor?
People have a very strange concept of punishment.
I see it two ways. On one hand you are trying to simulate reality at first level and on the other hand this is a game and in a balanced game all options are equivalent.
I'm more than a little annoyed about the spike chain nerf. Balance is suddenly more important than simulation when it comes to making options weaker? Alright...
This right here. Who cares what the actual die roll is once you add the damage from your stats and feats? In one adventure I had a gnome fighter using a double-bladed sword, because why not.
Actually, as stated above, it has very little to do with the actual die rolled (though that effective +2 per attack never hurts). The issue is the sling's slow firing speed, preventing a full attack unless you invest in multiple feats. To say nothing of the sling staff, which pretends to be superior while in fact being even worse—not even the feats work.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
on the other hand this is a game and in a balanced game all options are equivalent.
"What's balance?" ~Jason Buhlman
This right here. Who cares what the actual die roll is once you add the damage from your stats and feats? In one adventure I had a gnome fighter using a double-bladed sword, because why not.Actually, as stated above, it has very little to do with the actual die rolled (though that effective +2 per attack never hurts). The issue is the sling's slow firing speed, preventing a full attack unless you invest in multiple feats. To say nothing of the sling staff, which pretends to be superior while in fact being even worse—not even the feats work.
One of the dumbest phrases ever invented - "feat tax".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm actually pretty okay with things being imbalanced. I'd just like to see options that keep slingers, crossbowmen, and other pursuers of "style" off the sidelines, so to speak.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of the dumbest phrases ever invented - "feat tax".This right here. Who cares what the actual die roll is once you add the damage from your stats and feats? In one adventure I had a gnome fighter using a double-bladed sword, because why not.Actually, as stated above, it has very little to do with the actual die rolled (though that effective +2 per attack never hurts). The issue is the sling's slow firing speed, preventing a full attack unless you invest in multiple feats. To say nothing of the sling staff, which pretends to be superior while in fact being even worse—not even the feats work.
And yet it applies quite well. If you want to toss a stone, my dear, you've got to pay the toll.
One of the dumbest phrases ever invented - "feat tax".This right here. Who cares what the actual die roll is once you add the damage from your stats and feats? In one adventure I had a gnome fighter using a double-bladed sword, because why not.Actually, as stated above, it has very little to do with the actual die rolled (though that effective +2 per attack never hurts). The issue is the sling's slow firing speed, preventing a full attack unless you invest in multiple feats. To say nothing of the sling staff, which pretends to be superior while in fact being even worse—not even the feats work.
Right, because Combat Reflexes has so much to do with all the feats its a tax for. Oh wait... it doesn't. Thus it's a just a tax on them. Kind of like some sort of "feat tax". Eh?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, here's an idea.
HEROIC ARCHER
You are master of a single ranged weapon, using it despite how impractical or slow it may appear.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (any ranged non-thrown weapon)
Benefit: You can always make a full attack with the weapon you have Weapon Focus in, even if it would normally take too long to reload. You must still have sufficient ammunition and actions to do this.
Just remove all the crossbow and sling feats and replace them with this. Boom. Crossbows still suck, but at least they don't require a big tax to use.
How about a magic item for Repeatingcrossbows that autoloads the clip so you don't have to swap out the clipss?
So, here's an idea.
HEROIC ARCHER
You are master of a single ranged weapon, using it despite how impractical or slow it may appear.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (any ranged non-thrown weapon)
Benefit: You can always make a full attack with the weapon you have Weapon Focus in, even if it would normally take too long to reload. You must still have sufficient ammunition and actions to do this.Just remove all the crossbow and sling feats and replace them with this. Boom. Crossbows still suck, but at least they don't require a big tax to use.
That actually makes the chain longer for light cross bows. They just need rapid reload. You want them to grab two feats.
Well, there's a good chance they'd be picking up Weapon Focus anyways. You could leave Rapid Shot, obviously (I mean, who cares?), but it's not like anybody could call this a "feat tax". :P
You ask about making something, feat or archetype, to make all weapons feasible... What about warpriest, they can make a weapon, or several, of choice do the same high damage by the end. So you are left with type of dmg, crit, range, and special properties to choose from...
|
I agree that this is an issue. A potentially fixable one, but an issue.
On slings specifically, I added a Feat to let them use Dex to damage, they still require a Feat to use as a free action, but this makes a dedicated sling user pretty much the most SAD melee character ever and thus quite frightening. As well as making Halflings among the best slingers. I highly recommend this to anyone who feels
I similarly gave crossbows better reload times and thus made Crossbow Mastery's current function redundant, and switched it to a damage bonus.
Likewise, I've added a Feat to make not wearing armor more generally viable, and a few other similar things.
I recommend similar solutions for other things. Making Feats that make the less ideal options better than the default 'good' options by about a Feat's worth seems a solid way to compromise between the two options:
By default, realism holds sway and X is better than Y...but with the right training Rule of Cool takes over and Y can be better than X.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The best suggestion I ever heard was one about generic weapons.
So, instead of your FALCHIONS DO 2D4 18-20 X2, GREATSWORDS DO 2D6 19-20 X2, GREATAXES DO 1D12 20 X3, all of your big scary 2H weapons have the same stats. All the 1Hs have the same stats. All the Light weapons have the same stats. All of the ranged weapons have the same stats. And now, people use what they think is cool, not what is mechanically best.
There's nothing to stop you from using that super cool sling or greatclub when it, mechanically, is the same damn thing as a longbow or falchion.
I think some ideas, weapons, combos, etc, should be better than others. Some of them flat out are. A sword just IS more lethal than a staff in the hands of a two warriors with equal skill in their respective domain and equal physical capability. And it should be.
The best suggestion I ever heard was one about generic weapons.
So, instead of your FALCHIONS DO 2D4 18-20 X2, GREATSWORDS DO 2D6 19-20 X2, GREATAXES DO 1D12 20 X3, all of your big scary 2H weapons have the same stats. All the 1Hs have the same stats. All the Light weapons have the same stats. All of the ranged weapons have the same stats. And now, people use what they think is cool, not what is mechanically best.
There's nothing to stop you from using that super cool sling or greatclub when it, mechanically, is the same damn thing as a longbow or falchion.
So basically Legend. Except Legend actually lets you customize your generic weapons with points.
|
|
I don't recall what that suggestion had come from, but yeah, pretty much.
I would imagine there would need to be a few more categories (reach weapons, monk weapons, etc) but it solves the problem for me, at least. If I can pick the Battleaxe instead of a Scimitar, and not really suffer for it, I'm happy.
That said, I am fully aware that this isn't an option for everyone. But it's a nice houserule, and if my players like it, I may just implement it in the game I run.
The trouble is you can never achieve "balance" unless you make everything the same. People will always have different opinions on how viable different options are. Every sling and crossbow thread I've seen breaks down into...
"I want x as good as y"
"Well x can do this better than y"
"But that's not what I want x to do"
If you want a way to make all ranged weapons viable, you can add a houserule "benefit" that lets you treat one ranged weapon as a composite shortbow for the purposes of all feats / class features / reloading. That'll let you manyshot and not care about reloading.
Whether this benefit comes in the form of a feat, class feature, trait, racial ability, or for free is, well, up to you. It'll make all ranged weapons 'feel' the same, but, you want everything to be practical right?
The alternative is to make a bunch of different benefits for a bunch of different ranged weapons, so they all 'feel' thematically different and are equally practical. But this takes more rules modifications and time and effort.
Both are good suggestions. Personally, I'd rather preserve the weapons' full flavor and put in a bit of extra effort. It's the sort of thing that could be handled on a case-by-case basis, of course (hence my idea for a prestige class—it could take the "weapon groups" a tad further, offering different advantages to different specializations).
The trouble is you can never achieve "balance" unless you make everything the same. People will always have different opinions on how viable different options are. Every sling and crossbow thread I've seen breaks down into...
"I want x as good as y"
"Well x can do this better than y"
"But that's not what I want x to do"
No one (reasonable) wants perfect balance, only better balance.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
No one (reasonable) wants perfect balance, only better balance.The trouble is you can never achieve "balance" unless you make everything the same. People will always have different opinions on how viable different options are. Every sling and crossbow thread I've seen breaks down into...
"I want x as good as y"
"Well x can do this better than y"
"But that's not what I want x to do"
I would like x to have a niche besides "y but strictly worse in every way and if you use it you are a dumbass." How about something like "kinda like y but better in these areas and worse in those." For example, sling = x and composite longbow = y.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I personally just don't see why feats that help you use a Longbow better can't be applied to a Sling. Or a Crossbow. Or a Blowdart.
I don't see why that kind of thing needs to be a thing, in general, really.
Sling reloads as a move action and can't benefit from Rapid Reload. The best you can do is Ammo Drop for a swift action reload. So you can have at best two shots per round. Ever. No benefit from Rapid Shot once you reach BAB 6. No Manyshot. No Haste benefit. By choosing to specialize in a sling you are objectively worse than someone who just took Weapon Proficiency Longbow and dumped the weapon entirely... I'm not sure if you didn't know this or were lamenting the fact it is the way it is.
|
|
Sling reloads as a move action and can't benefit from Rapid Reload. The best you can do is Ammo Drop for a swift action reload. So you can have at best two shots per round. Ever. No benefit from Rapid Shot once you reach BAB 6. No Manyshot. No Haste benefit. By choosing to specialize in a sling you are objectively worse than someone who just took Weapon Proficiency Longbow and dumped the weapon entirely... I'm not sure if you didn't know this or were lamenting the fact it is the way it is.I personally just don't see why feats that help you use a Longbow better can't be applied to a Sling. Or a Crossbow. Or a Blowdart.
I don't see why that kind of thing needs to be a thing, in general, really.
Uh...Juggle Load lets you reload a sling as a free action. As does the Warslinger Halfling Racial Trait.
Neither is ideal, or enough to make the sling a good weapon choice, but it's certainly possible to do.
I think something that everyone is forgetting is that the title of a weapon is just flavour text. calling your melee weapon Halberd or Long sword does as much to the mechanic as calling your spell Magic Missile or calling your feat Diehard.
If you want to be a sling fighter that is as good as an archer just rename the bow to sling and rename arrow to stones. Now you can visualize your character how you want. Same mechanic, different flavour text.