Healing Salve - it's so much worse than the rest lol
Dark Ritual is a close second under the right circumstances. I've heard more about Dark Ritual than Ancestral Recall.
Large game (15ish players), everyone was picking up on the combo Dark Ritual + Siphon Soul (deal 2 damage to everyone else, gain life equal to damage). I literally played a couple of games where I did not get to take my first turn. Expanding resources of any type can be really dangerous...
Chief Technical Officer
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The suspend card was Ancestral Vision, which was a newer card designed to give a reasonably powered version of Ancestral Recall. The original was printed in Alpha, before anyone understood how powerful card advantage was.
The designers understood card advantage perfectly. What they *didn't* understand was that Magic: The Gathering would become popular enough that anyone's personal universe would encompass more than 1 or 2 copies of any rare card. Remember, there were only about 4000 copies of each rare in the 10-million card limited edition run, and we thought it would take a year or so to sell through that. We honestly thought that rare cards would be scarce enough that most players would never see them all, and—remember that this was just barely at the dawn of the internet—that legends would circulate with secondhand tales at conventions about some guy who claimed to have seen a card that lets you draw three cards, or a card that lets you take another turn. It was a very different world before Unlimited came out. One Time Walk is good, but not broken. 4 Time Walks in a 40-card deck? That's a whole different thing.
The suspend card was Ancestral Vision, which was a newer card designed to give a reasonably powered version of Ancestral Recall. The original was printed in Alpha, before anyone understood how powerful card advantage was.The designers understood card advantage perfectly. What they *didn't* understand was that Magic: The Gathering would become popular enough that anyone's personal universe would encompass more than 1 or 2 copies of any rare card. Remember, there were only about 4000 copies of each rare in the 10-million card limited edition run, and we thought it would take a year or so to sell through that. We honestly thought that rare cards would be scarce enough that most players would never see them all, and—remember that this was just barely at the dawn of the internet—that legends would circulate with secondhand tales at conventions about some guy who claimed to have seen a card that lets you draw three cards, or a card that lets you take another turn. It was a very different world before Unlimited came out. One Time Walk is good, but not broken. 4 Time Walks in a 40-card deck? That's a whole different thing.
Thanks for the info! I think what I read was that it took the community a while to understand card advantage (at least that's what I think I read), and misapplied that info. Also, I thought AR was a common, like the other boons (again, probably wrong, my knowledge of early magic is mostly from MaRo articles)
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Chief Technical Officer
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It was definitely rare. It is the only card in Limited that has a one-blue-mana for three-of-something, so I can't image what else might fit that "cycle." (That said, I don't recall anybody ever talking about that cycle at the time, and Rosewater wasn't an employee during those days—just a very active fan who occasionally wrote for The Duelist magazine. It would not surprise me if that idea was a retrofit...)
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Chief Technical Officer
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It was definitely rare. It is the only card in Limited that has a one-blue-mana for three-of-something, so I can't image what else might fit that "cycle." (That said, I don't recall anybody ever talking about that cycle at the time, and Rosewater wasn't an employee during those days—just a very active fan who occasionally wrote for The Duelist magazine. It would not surprise me if that idea was a retrofit...)
I see it was mentioned here in 2002... and I don't see anybody talking about "the boon cycle" before that. I still think it was a retrofit.
Holy Stone puzzles me.
The Ranged version would work with Blessing of Erastil, allies, etc.
Don't forget the rangers! Arabundi also has better Ranged than Divine and the Class Deck Harsk can get Divine.
It was definitely rare. It is the only card in Limited that has a one-blue-mana for three-of-something, so I can't image what else might fit that "cycle." (That said, I don't recall anybody ever talking about that cycle at the time, and Rosewater wasn't an employee during those days—just a very active fan who occasionally wrote for The Duelist magazine. It would not surprise me if that idea was a retrofit...)I see it was mentioned here in 2002... and I don't see anybody talking about "the boon cycle" before that. I still think it was a retrofit.
Thanks! I'm learning so much today. (And I did know that about Rosewater, but I figured he was as good a source as any. )
What Holy Stone really needs is a Perception recharge check :)
I just think it's a little weak for a Divine caster, and if you're a ranger you'd probably rather spend your few spell slots on non-attack spells...
You know what is interesting about Holy Stone, the card itself has the Ranged trait. Which means when you play it you are making a Ranged combat check. Which means (and I'm going to use RotR examples here since I haven't looked through a lot of S&S yet) cards like Archer or Black Arrow Ranger would help. I'm sure there are items in S&S that add to Ranged checks as well. And if someone else has Illuminate they can play that to help your check as well.
Hmmm, that is interesting. Assuming you're right (and I can't see anything to suggest other wise) and it's a ranged combat check even if you use the Divine or Wisdom skill, then I can finally see a use for it. Team up with a buddy that makes range combat checks all the time, like a ranger, and then use this for your combat checks and acquire boons that support Ranged combat checks, like Illuminate or Shalelu Andosana, to help either player's combat check.
Excellent. A practical use for the thing (lol).
Yeah. It works just like RotR Lini playing a Weapon with the Melee trait so she can play a Snake as well. Plus this from the S&S Rulebook:
Traits also determine the type of check; for example, if you’re attempting a combat check and you played a weapon that added the Ranged trait, it counts as a Ranged combat check.
Swap weapon for spell and you are talking about Holy Stone.
Though note that the 1 card of each type limit prevents a single character from playing both Holy Stone and Illuminate on the same check.
Yeah. It works just like RotR Lini playing a Weapon with the Melee trait so she can play a Snake as well. Plus this from the S&S Rulebook:
Traits also determine the type of check; for example, if you’re attempting a combat check and you played a weapon that added the Ranged trait, it counts as a Ranged combat check.Swap weapon for spell and you are talking about Holy Stone.
Though note that the 1 card of each type limit prevents a single character from playing both Holy Stone and Illuminate on the same check.
Yeah, I'd notice that in gameplay but forgot about it in my excitement to find a use for Holy Stone.
Hmm, now it's hard again to find a real use for Illuminate. I mean, generally speaking, just take Aid...
I wonder if there will ever be a spell casting character with a power like "You may play a spell to affect your check even if you played a spell to determine your skill." And whether or not that would be game breaking. I supposed it could be balanced out with a lower skill level for Arcane/Divine (maybe a d8 for the die). That would be pretty cool:
"I cast Holy Stone and Illuminate."
"I cast Inflict and Aid."
I wonder if there will ever be a spell casting character with a power like "You may play a spell to affect your check even if you played a spell to determine your skill." And whether or not that would be game breaking. I supposed it could be balanced out with a lower skill level for Arcane/Divine (maybe a d8 for the die). That would be pretty cool:
"I cast Holy Stone and Illuminate."
"I cast Inflict and Aid."
I think Seltyiel has shown that this is not only non-game breaking, but actually pretty lame.
It's not the same thing, but still.
I don't think having spells that determine the combat spell not counting as your one-spell-per-check would be remotely close to game breaking. I don't even think it would be that good. Heck, most people don't even play Aid (from what I can tell; I seem to be unusual in my liking of it) and you can already do cloud spells and combat spells.
Yeah, I don't get the lack of love for Aid either. I think it is awesome.
And I'm not sure about the lame thing. It would encourage you to take support spells. Here are some other combos:
Any Combat Spell + Swipe for -3.
Any Combat Spell + Glibness (assuming Charisma based Arcane)
Harsk like character playing Holy Stone + Speed
I'd be interested in trying that out.
Yeah, I don't get the lack of love for Aid either. I think it is awesome.
And I'm not sure about the lame thing. It would encourage you to take support spells. Here are some other combos:
Any Combat Spell + Swipe for -3.
Any Combat Spell + Glibness (assuming Charisma based Arcane)
Harsk like character playing Holy Stone + SpeedI'd be interested in trying that out.
I just don't find it that necessary as you can do the same thing with blessings when you need it, usually.
I like Aid and stuff like it to use as rechargeable blessings or to put on top of blessings on other characters, usually on non-combat checks or the final Villain fight. I don't think i'd even use this ability all that much if I had it.
Yeah, I don't get the lack of love for Aid either. I think it is awesome.
And I'm not sure about the lame thing. It would encourage you to take support spells. Here are some other combos:
Any Combat Spell + Swipe for -3.
Any Combat Spell + Glibness (assuming Charisma based Arcane)
Harsk like character playing Holy Stone + SpeedI'd be interested in trying that out.
Hm, are you actually able to do those combos? I thought you weren't allowed to influence a check with two cards of the same type (spells in this case).
Of course someone else could cast the "buff" spell in these cases (Swipe, Glibness, Speed, etc.).
I do like the Aid spell by the way, I just think it gets outclassed later on.
Yeah, I don't get the lack of love for Aid either. I think it is awesome.
And I'm not sure about the lame thing. It would encourage you to take support spells. Here are some other combos:
Any Combat Spell + Swipe for -3.
Any Combat Spell + Glibness (assuming Charisma based Arcane)
Harsk like character playing Holy Stone + SpeedI'd be interested in trying that out.
Hm, are you actually able to do those combos? I thought you weren't allowed to influence a check with two cards of the same type (spells in this case).
Of course someone else could cast the "buff" spell in these cases (Swipe, Glibness, Speed, etc.).
I do like the Aid spell by the way, I just think it gets outclassed later on.
No, you can't do that. A couple posts above I diverged into talking about a hypothetical character that had a power to allow them to do so. These were a continuation of that idea.
Okay, cool. It would be embarrassing if it turned out I've been playing wrong this whole time :P
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Chief Technical Officer
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It was definitely rare. It is the only card in Limited that has a one-blue-mana for three-of-something, so I can't image what else might fit that "cycle." (That said, I don't recall anybody ever talking about that cycle at the time, and Rosewater wasn't an employee during those days—just a very active fan who occasionally wrote for The Duelist magazine. It would not surprise me if that idea was a retrofit...)I see it was mentioned here in 2002... and I don't see anybody talking about "the boon cycle" before that. I still think it was a retrofit.
I checked with Skaff Elias, one of the original Magic designers (and who is in one of my weekly PACG groups); he says that Richard Garfield did indeed call that set of cards "the boon cycle" from the beginning.
dot
I checked with Skaff Elias, one of the original Magic designers (and who is in one of my weekly PACG groups); he says that Richard Garfield did indeed call that set of cards "the boon cycle" from the beginning.It was definitely rare. It is the only card in Limited that has a one-blue-mana for three-of-something, so I can't image what else might fit that "cycle." (That said, I don't recall anybody ever talking about that cycle at the time, and Rosewater wasn't an employee during those days—just a very active fan who occasionally wrote for The Duelist magazine. It would not surprise me if that idea was a retrofit...)I see it was mentioned here in 2002... and I don't see anybody talking about "the boon cycle" before that. I still think it was a retrofit.
I'm not sure what's cooler...that you took the time to check on that, or that you have a weekly PACG game with one of the original Magic designers.
...I think I have to go with the latter. Very cool.
Take a look at Vic's info (click on his name). :-)
I did a while back and smiled.
Wow, that's impressive. All the more cool that he takes the time to talk in these threads.
The Dark was my favorite MtG expansion.
Take a look at Vic's info
First I got upset because I remembered that freakin' much money I dumped into Magic, then I read this
Has seen every surviving episode of Doctor Who
and thought:
Fantastic!
I started playing during Urza's block, so Saga was an early favorite, but my fondest memories will always be of Ravnica block. 5 color drafting was so much fun.
I had a pretty short MtG playing career, lasting roughly from Morningtide to Avacyn Restored. Innistrad was my favorite, by a good margin.
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Arabian Nights, myself.
Legends was interesting.
I have a complete set of Arabian Nights in my closet. I wonder if it's worth anything :).
I played back in Alpha a little, mostly Beta+.
I had a complete set as well. But I took the set along with my BL and Moxes to GenCon several years ago and sold most of it. I ended up paying for my GenCon trip that year as well as the next year and a set of leather armor and custom hand-made boots (at the Ren Faire). I could probably have bought a car nowadays but I think I got my money out of the cards at the time.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I consider selling my Lotus and such each year too. I like having them - they have some sentimental value as they came in my first Magic purchase - but the idea I could get $thousand or so for the Lotus is tempting, not to mention my Mox, Timetwister, Library, etc.
I played Magic from Unlimited to Visions, btw. I remember noticing back in the day that each color had a "1 for 3" card, but I can't remember if it was my own pattern recognition or an early article in the Duelist or Scrye.
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If you have no real need to sell them ... don't. I agree with your idea of sentimental value. But when I realized I could sell my stuff (that I no longer wanted to play with because of it's value) and fund something else that I did enjoy ... 'nuff said.
We played about until then as well ... from Alpha until actually right after Mirage. About the time that a lot of my friends started having kids and their funds got tied up elsewhere. LOL
We still play at least once a year on our way to GenCon and on the way back, we have a Deckbuilder tourney for beers. The funny part is that some of us have gotten back into Magic because our children now play ... talk about a generation gap! My daughter was less than a year when it came out. The rest of my friends have children younger than Alphas, Betas, etc.