I'd like to head this off with the fact that I know this is an alpha. I expect problems, I'm just trying to voice my feelings on them and how they could possibly be addressed.
I found feat training a total buzzkill this Alpha. I spent more time hunting feats and trying to find out what they do than anything else. There are a few things that I'd really like to see happen.
1. Tooltips in the skill trainer menu. Hovering over a feat should give a description of it. You shouldn't have to buy a skill or find it outside the game to determine what it does.
2. Categories. I'd like to see the skills trainer have headers of skill times such as an "Attacks" tab with "Primary" and "Secondary" attacks sorted out as well as sorting them by weapon.
Like so.
Attacks Tab
---Greatsword
------Greatsword Primaries
------Greatsword Secondaries
---Longbow
------Longbow Primaries
------Longbow Secondaries
Or
Passives
---Reactive Passives
---Armor Passivies
---Role Feature Passives
3. Skills you already have ranks in should be highlighted in green. You should also be able to filter out all skills other than these skills for easier progression in a specific build.
4. Create Redundancy. Certain skills are used by multiple roles and some by every role. Create redundancy in skill training by having skill trainers offer more skills relevant to their class even if other skill trainers offer it as well. Skills shared by multiple roles should be at all of those role's trainers.
So if I want hitpoints, medium armor, and bow skills for my evangelist cleric I should be able to get that all at the cleric trainer since those are all very relevant for a cleric type. If I also need it for an archer fighter I should be able to get it from the fighter trainer as well since they are all very relevant to a fighter type. Stop making us run around to hunt down skills with seemingly random trainer type selection. It isn't fun. It's tedious.
5. Create a term and category for passive skills such as hitpoints and perception which do not need to be slotted. These skills can be very important to every character type so they should be easily identified and acquired.
Goblin Squad Member
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Agree with the provisio that idea 4) is not to add new training options to a settlement, just adding convenience by offering the already available skills at multiple locations.
Please also make trainers visible on the minimap (and distinguishable from guards). Not seeing buildings nor trainers on the map makes it pretty useless for navigating a settlement!
In the tooltip (to come) for each skill, add info on what trainer can teach it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agree with OP, almost completely.
Tabs are required for sorting out Feats for Weapon.
I would also like to know, ahead of time, what slot a Feat is slotted into 1 - 10. Primary Hand and or Off Hand.
I would like to know which Feats are Triggers and which Feats are Follow-Ups.
Agree with Randomwalker, Trainers need to be visible on mini map and colored "Yellow".
Settlement Guards, need to be colored "Purple".
Leaving neutral players "White", grouped / friendly players "Blue", and free to attack - criminal players "Red".
Reputation Color needs to be changed, High Rep should be "Blue" not "Red". "Red" always means dead in MMOs, I would have thought GW knew that?
Training and Attributes:
Combat characters should not have to train as skilled harvesters, refiners and crafters, just so they can advance as combat oriented characters.
Crafters should not have to have combat training in order to be higher level crafters.
Attributes should be gained through leveling up the appropriate Achievements.
Character Attributes should be displayed in whole numbers, but a mouse over will display the true number (ie. 18.97).
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Goblin Squad Member
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A better interface and tool tips is important.
An easy mode one stop shop I disagree with. it will just give people the mistaken idea they are building classes.
Yep, agree with this. Don't mind having to go to multiple trainers to advance a role. The UI does need some serious work to be more user friendly.
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A better interface and tool tips is important.
An easy mode one stop shop I disagree with. it will just give people the mistaken idea they are building classes.
A better interface and tooltip are mandatory!
Could they add a tooltip on objectives tab (upper-right corner) to show when mouse is up there too? And plese make the tooltip be over all the opened tabs.
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An easy mode one stop shop I disagree with.
If you believe this creates an "easy mode" do you believe the current system creates meaningful challenge? Because I find it more reminiscent of "go find this person / talk to this person" quests. The only challenge is to my patience and if I'll have enough time to find out which NPC I need to go to and train the skills I want before I have to go back to work.
Meaningful challenge should be derived from the content of the game. Not making basic features more tedious.
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Compromise: have an NPC that lists all of the training available in a given settlement, and from which trainer(s) one can get it.
That would be an improvement but does anyone have an argument to present on how having to run from skill trainer to skill trainer presents meaningful challenge, creates a sense of accomplishment, or improves the game?
To me it feels like a meaningless time sink / grinding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Compromise: have an NPC that lists all of the training available in a given settlement, and from which trainer(s) one can get it.That would be an improvement but does anyone have an argument to present on how having to run from skill trainer to skill trainer presents meaningful challenge, creates a sense of accomplishment, or improves the game?
To me it feels like a meaningless time sink / grinding.
For starters, they do not want "All in One" training buildings. The challenge might be in deciding which ones are most important in settlement design. Making tough choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Compromise: have an NPC that lists all of the training available in a given settlement, and from which trainer(s) one can get it.That would be an improvement but does anyone have an argument to present on how having to run from skill trainer to skill trainer presents meaningful challenge, creates a sense of accomplishment, or improves the game?
To me it feels like a meaningless time sink / grinding.
It adds a bit of an exploration element to the settlements. Otherwise we'd just have a single NPC and building in every settlement. I don't mind if we're able to see what all training is available from a single point but we should need to actually visit the trainers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like that we have to run hither and yon to find the right trainer for the right feat. That said, I would really appreciate more vibrant signs outside the various training/crafting establishments so I could identify them at a distance. Not a big deal at the moment, since once you've memorized one starter village you can find what you're looking for in the others. Player settlements, though, won't have a standardized layout, making clear signage very handy indeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Compromise: have an NPC that lists all of the training available in a given settlement, and from which trainer(s) one can get it.That would be an improvement but does anyone have an argument to present on how having to run from skill trainer to skill trainer presents meaningful challenge, creates a sense of accomplishment, or improves the game?
To me it feels like a meaningless time sink / grinding.
The consolidation of trainers that you suggest removes meaningful choice from Settlements, as the sharding of trainers introduces the ability to choose different levels to support various classes.
There is a balancing act to be had, but I don't find having to jog across town between three trainers particularly onerous. Keep in mind that on a normal 1k XP per hour growth rate, you won't be needing to buy new skills all that often.
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I am not proposing all skills be at all trainers but all relevant skills be at all relevant trainers.
If you want a fighter specific skill you go to a fighter trainer, a rogue specific skill you go to a rogue trainer etc.
If you want a generic skill shared by multiple roles than the trainers for any of the roles that use it will have it.
That doesn't effect the support of settlements for different roles. If you don't have the wizard trainer then you don't get the wizard skills. Just generic skills used by both the roles you have trainers for and wizard trainers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having the Seminary separate from the Cleric Temple will make more sense when there are oracles and druids who also use the Seminary, but have their own versions of the Temple. Same goes for the rest of the Big Four roles. For now, it does feel kind of pointless to run between them, but it won't always.
Here is my frustration.
I was experimenting with an evangelist cleric.
I had to go to the cleric trainer for my cleric skills, and the seminary trainer for others. Then I had to go to the dreadnought for medium armor. For my longbow / ranged abilities... I believe the training was scattered across the dreadnought, skirmisher, fighter and rogue trainers. I can't even remember it was such a muddled up mess.
I shouldn't have to go to so many NPCs just to create one basic role. It's not even really clear if I would get my dedication bonus or not. I think all my skills were available to a cleric but it's hard to tell when they are scattered everywhere.
Like I said. Fighting with the game's setup to get access to basic character functions is not the kind of challenge this game needs to be promoting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was experimenting with an evangelist cleric.
...
For my longbow / ranged abilities...
I'm still having trouble getting past my ancient "Clerics don't use pointy things" mental block. Bows just make me shudder, but they were so powerful it was almost useless to resist their siren's-call.
I don't see why. A basic cleric is proficient in all simple weapons including crossbows and javelins. Any cleric can then learn to use bows by using a feat to train the use of a martial weapon, or if it is favored by their deity and I know of a few gods that have some form of bow as their favored weapon.
It isn't the classic image of a basic cleric, but it is as appropriate as the also possible heavy armor wearing crusader. I don't see a problem with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see why. A basic cleric is proficient in all simple weapons including crossbows and javelins. Any cleric can then learn to use bows by using a feat to train the use of a martial weapon, or if it is favored by their deity and I know of a few gods that have some form of bow as their favored weapon.
It isn't the classic image of a basic cleric, but it is as appropriate as the also possible heavy armor wearing crusader. I don't see a problem with it.
In EVE there are no trainers. you just buy a skill book at the central market and learn it. I have never been a fan of that.
I actually prefer the PFO system, and splitting the advance trainers was a fantastic idea. The wizard in our party was always wanting to go to Oster to upgrade some feat or other and craft wizzardy mumbo jumbo stuff while the proper fighter/cleric types were wanting to head down to clover to visit the seminary and smelt some more +1 steel plate. led to some interesting in party interactions.
ALSO ... remember you were getting 5000 XP an hour instead of 100. In normal play you will probably level up a feat every week or two after the initial first day flurry of basic 40 XP skills are finished.
I do not think it is a good idea to combine all these trainers just to make the initial first day training in EE a bit easier.
EDIT:
Whilst I think the fuss about the multiple trainers is an artifact of ppl trying to train 5000 XP per hour ... I totally agree about the need for more ingame tooltips and info. I also agree with the comments that the attribute prerequisites forcing you to train fighter to improve your mining and craft armor or train rogue to get the dex needed to advance as a wizard or whatever are a bit harsh.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm still having trouble getting past my ancient "Clerics don't use pointy things" mental block. Bows just make me shudder, but they were so powerful it was almost useless to resist their siren's-call.I was experimenting with an evangelist cleric.
...
For my longbow / ranged abilities...
@T7V Jazzlvraz
You are just trained by the origins of DnD and thus Pathfinder. Those that do not understand your block just lack your experience. This is based upon the reputed prohibition on historic martial clerical orders to not shed blood (no pointy or edged weapons). NOt to say this was true or not, but it was in DnD concepts for the first three books. I do not think it survived to 3.0, where clerics were limited to simple weapon list. So clerics were limited to less effective weapons compare to fighters but better than daggers and staves to which magic users were limited. They had spells which fighters did not have, but those were limited or utility spells (food and drink for men and animals 24 meals, spoiled in 24 hours).@Enruel: In Alpha, clerics default choice is Crusader and Glory domain. Evangelist can be trained, but I am not sure it works right. EE will OR Crusader, Evangelist, Or Healer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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NOt to say this was true or not, but it was in DnD concepts for the first three books. I do not think it survived to 3.0, where clerics were limited to simple weapon list. So clerics were limited to less effective weapons compare to fighters but better than daggers and staves to which magic users were limited. They had spells which fighters did not have, but those were limited or utility spells (food and drink for men and animals 24 meals, spoiled in 24 hours).
The real limitation in 3.0/3.5 on clerics was BAB which was much lower by level 20.
However in 3.5 Battle Clerics outperformed fighters and barbarians in melee combat above about level 12. Two things gave you this:
- domains and favored weapons that gave access to all martial weapons or specific swords/bows.
- self buffs that added back the missing BAB and added huge bonuses to STR and CON and various other stats.
3.5 battle Clerics were monsters, probably only matchable in close combat by Wild Shaped Druids with big pets. Pathfinder actually nerfed the Battle Cleric quite a bit and buffed Paladins instead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a simple solution to many problems faced here would be to create map pins that are visible only inside of a given hex that denote the location of any given trainer.
Well yes it would help with the very initial training.
But seriously this is only a problem in alpha and maybe the first week of EE.
It will not be an issue once you start getting 5k XP cost never-lone 10-20K XP cost per feat (bearing in mnd you only earn 16.8 K per week).
Once the game proper has started people will be only training a new feat every other week. Also the trainers will be in your own settlement so if you cannot find them then, something is very wrong.
I do concede it is an issue in Alpha and perhaps EE week 1 but a better solution would be maps and better feat lists rather than making every trainer train almost everything you could randomly want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe the devs gave this out and i just missed it,
but what i would really like to have is a list with the prerequisites for feats,
on my cleric i was just able to train crusader I, but not healer I, and i´d like to know why, do i need a different kind of armor training for that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it helps, Nihimon's made many of these early updates in PFO Wiki.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't see why. A basic cleric is proficient in all simple weapons including crossbows and javelins. Any cleric can then learn to use bows by using a feat to train the use of a martial weapon, or if it is favored by their deity and I know of a few gods that have some form of bow as their favored weapon.
It isn't the classic image of a basic cleric, but it is as appropriate as the also possible heavy armor wearing crusader. I don't see a problem with it.
Dwarven clerics are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers regardless of deity. Just saying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tooltips still don't show which attack feats are Primary and which are Secondary :(
That is definitely important.
Very true though at the present you can actually make a reasonable guess that feats which create conditions are primary and feats that take advantage of conditions are secondary .. it is a bit of a pain but still better than having a lot of spreadsheets open.
I agree, after jumping in today, the tooltips need some much required line breaks in them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the tooltips need some much required line breaks...
I've no doubt that the tooltips will improve when they have the technology to do so, but for right now the fact they exist at all is a blessing; they were copy/pasted by hand, hence the difficulty in improving them. For now, they're putting out the info contained in the tooltips in publicly available spreadsheets, and those spreadsheets are then massaged by players into the wiki.
and those spreadsheets are then massaged by players into the wiki.
Oooo... data massages... I'll have one of those, please!