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The hero lab developers are claiming that swashbuckler class levels don't satisfy the prerequisites for the signature deed feat. Does pg 56 of the ACG say otherwise?
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Indeed. Signature Deed requires having 11 levels of Gunslinger.
I think, somewhere between the playtest and the final version of the ACG, when the "hybridness" of the new classes got changed, the Swashbuckler went from being half Gunslinger to being its own class, and the Developers simply forgot to include some sort of language for corner cases like Signature Deed.
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The gunslinger's grit and the swashbuckler's panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points.
For purposes of feat prerequisites, a character with the panache class feature satisfies the prerequisites as if she were a grit user, and vise versa. For feats, magicitems, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain points in place of grit points, and vice versa.
Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck and panache, they pool the three resources into a combined pool.(Those who use panache and luck gain twice their charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effcts, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa.
A luck user does not count as a grit or panache user to satisfy feat prerequisites.
While gunslinger and swashbuckler are their own classes, as stated above, a swashbuckler's levels count as gunslinger levels for meeting prerequites of feats. A sleuth's luck class feature doesn't. Both class features are called out on their respective pages, and each specify what levels of that class do and do not count as. A swashbuckler could take the signature deed feat, but a sleuth could not.
This is a weird situation. RAI is obviously that Swashbucklers can take the Signature Deed feat, because it specifically says in the text of Precise Strike "This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat)."
However, the Swashbuckler also has specific text that says "Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites", but nowhere does it say they are also treated as Gunslinger levels.
So by RAW, Swashbucklers can definitely take feats that require the "grit class feature" (due to the text TheBulletKnight posted) but by RAW Swashbucklers don't seem to be able to ever qualify for Signature Deed, even though by RAI it seems like they should be able to.
I think people are reading too much into this. A gunslinger is a grit user, and a swashbuckler counts as a grit user for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
There is even a swashbuckler archetype that has a deed that specifically notes that it cannot be modified by the Signature Deed feat. That archetype is the inspired blade archetype, the deed in question being the inspired strike deed.
The problem is, "counts as a grit user" is different than "counts as a gunslinger". Most grit feats require the "grit class feature", but Signature Deed requires both the "grit class feature" along with "gunslinger level 11th". And while Swashbuckler levels count as Fighter levels, they don't explicitly count as Gunslinger levels.
But obviously Swashbucklers were intended to be able to take Signature Deed, because some Swashbuckler deeds explicitly can't be used with Signature Deed.
The problem is, "counts as a grit user" is different than "counts as a gunslinger". Most grit feats require the "grit class feature", but Signature Deed requires both the "grit class feature" along with "gunslinger level 11th". And while Swashbuckler levels count as Fighter levels, they don't explicitly count as Gunslinger levels.
But obviously Swashbucklers were intended to be able to take Signature Deed, because some Swashbuckler deeds explicitly can't be used with Signature Deed.
But along those same lines, "counts as grit user" is not the same as "counts as the grit class feature," so by that same logic the paragraph actually does nothing.
In my opinion, this is a case of common sense being crippled by rules lawyering.
Hero labs has a lot of bugs for the ACG supplement so I would not use that as a basis for to the legality of an ability. For example it clearly states you can take extra investigator talents multiple times but it only allows you to pick the feat once before it is removed from the list. Hopefully they will becoming out with an update soon.
It certainly isn't clear. The writers mentioned that they wanted to reuse existing feats etc. as much as possible with the hybrid classes to avoid duplication and along with the text in the abilities it certainly doesn't seem an unreasonable ruling that Swashbucklers can take signature deed. (Although, it may be unreasonable to allow the use of levels of swashbuckler to qualify for gunslinger deeds and vice versa when you consider some of the weird combo's you can do).
However I think it's unclear currently so I've FAQ'd the opening post.
Agreed that this needs to be clarified. It's an important question when it comes to archetypes that gain the panache class feature. If swashbuckler levels count as gunslinger levels, what about daring champion or the kata master?
I feel that it would be limited exclusively to the swashbuckler seeing as Dune Drifter and Holy Gun are also barred.
Agreed that this needs to be clarified. It's an important question when it comes to archetypes that gain the panache class feature. If swashbuckler levels count as gunslinger levels, what about daring champion or the kata master?
Well, since the information I posted says 'a character with the panache class feature' not 'a swashbuckler', then any class that gains panache would be able to take things like signature deed or a character that gains grit can take any feat that requires the panache class feature, like the disarming threat deed feat.
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BulletKnight, this is the problem:
Prerequisite: Grit class feature, gunslinger level 11th
Somewhere along the line, Swashbucklers stopped counting as Gunslingers for meeting feat prerequisites. Yes, they still count as having grit/panache, but as it is written now, a Swashbuckler would still need 11 levels of Gunslinger to qualify for this feat.
BulletKnight, this is the problem:
Prerequisite: Grit class feature, gunslinger level 11thSomewhere along the line, Swashbucklers stopped counting as Gunslingers for meeting feat prerequisites. Yes, they still count as having grit/panache, but as it is written now, a Swashbuckler would still need 11 levels of Gunslinger to qualify for this feat.
I agree that, as-written, Swashbucklers can't take the feat. They created that feat at a time when Swashbuckler didn't exist, but Grit-granting Archetypes did, and those Archetypes do not make the class count as a Gunslinger.
However, I think that all that's required is an Errata to the feat that says "Gunslinger Level 11th OR Swashbuckler Level 11th." It's an easy fix and fits thematically with what the feat tries to accomplish.
Otherwise, the "All Grit & Panache Users are Gunslingers" argument just opens up a Pandora's Can of Worms that any Archetype which gives someone Grit - or worse yet, the Amateur Gunslinger/Swashbuckler feats - could make anything count as a Gunslinger.
Ki Pools don't make you a Monk, so Grit alone shouldn't make you a Gunslinger. Let Swashbucklers get the feat and ONLY Swashbucklers.
Let Swashbucklers get the feat and ONLY Swashbucklers.
This, but I think that gunslingers should be able to have it as well =P
That's kind of what I was getting at when I was pointing out the archetypal 'gunslingers' that don't qualify. I think Swashbucklers should get it, but not daring champions or kata masters.
I never said, nor did I insinuate, that having the ki pool class feature made you applicable for taking monk feats.
I am, however, of the mind that, by the wording of the sidebar of page 56, that having the grit class feature satsifies prerequisites for feats that require the panache class feature, and vice versa. I agree, by the wording of the signature deed feat, that by RAW, a swashbuckler couldn't take it, as he isn't a gunslinger.
But by the same RAW, any class, not just gunslingers and swashbucklers, that have the grit class feature or the panache class feature can take any feat that has either class feature as a prerequiste, that they gain the benefit and use of any magic item that effects grit or panache, and that any other effects that affect said class features effect both.
That means kata master could take the No Name grit feat, anyone(yes, anyone) with the amateur gunslinger feat could take any feat that had the panache class feature as a prerequisite, and anyone with either class feature would benefit from a plume of panache, gaining the panache point and being able to use it as a grit point as outlined on page 56 of the ACG, as it says...
...For feats, magic items and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa.
But also, after reading the sidebar, the RAI seems to agree. Does it say that you have to be a gunslinger or swashbuckler to gain the benefits? No. It says you have to have the grit class feature or the panache class feature. By RAW, a holy gun's holy grit wouldn't meet the criteria, nor would an inspired swashbuckler's inspired panache, as neither are the grit or panache class features.
But we can all say that the RAI for the inspired swashbuckler is that he can still do this, as his class feature is altered. But that same RAI applies to the holy gun. His ability is basically an altered version of the grit class feature. How can we say RAI is different for these two classes, given the intention seems to be that the panache class feature and the grit class feature interact to the point of being the same thing for feat prerequisites, magic item use and activation, and being affected in the same way for other effects?
It even states that they,'represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool.' The class features are clearly the focus here, not the classes themselves.
And just to point it out as others have done, the precise strike deed even says that it can't be chosen for the signature deed feat. Either a mistake or RAI showing that the wording in the UC will be changed because we now have these two pools that interact in this way. And if the RAI is that swashbucklers can take the signature deed feat, then the wording could change to 'the grit class feature and character level 11th.' If that change were made, it mean anyone with the grit class feature or the panache class feature could take it. Even the amateurs.
But unless such a change is made, only gunslingers can take signature deed. Every other feat that lists the grit class feature or the panache class feature as a prerequisite can be taken by anyone who has either class feature, not just gunslingers and swashbucklers.
Edit: And as for the ki pool thing, if something says it requires the ki pool class feature and not any levels of monk, then anyone with a ki pool could take that feat, anyone could use ki to activate that item, and any other effects that affects a ki pool would effect that character's ki pool.
...For feats, magic items and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa.But also, after reading the sidebar, the RAI seems to agree. Does it say that you have to be a gunslinger or swashbuckler to gain the benefits? No. It says you have to have the grit class feature or the panache class feature. By RAW, a holy gun's holy grit wouldn't meet the criteria, nor would an inspired swashbuckler's inspired panache, as neither are the grit or panache class features.
But we can all say that the RAI for the inspired swashbuckler is that he can still do this, as his class feature is altered. But that same RAI applies to the holy gun. His ability is basically an altered version of the grit class feature. How can we say RAI is different for these two classes, given the intention seems to be that the panache class feature and the grit class feature interact to the point of being the same thing for feat prerequisites, magic item use and activation, and being affected in the same way for other effects?
Actually Holy gun has the Amateur Gunslinger feat so it qualifies for most grit and panache feats, and the Inspired Panache class feature "alters the panache class feature." meaning she is still considered to have the panache class feature, so RAW both of the archetypes fall under that sidebar. RAI and RAW at time of printing UC wanted ONLY the gunslinger (and her Archetypes) to be able to use signature deed. It was something set aside for those that had dedicated themselves to being a gunslinger, and not a ______ that happens to use guns.
With ACG I anticipate that RAI extends this to the swashbuckler (and her archetypes) with the same intent 'this is something for those that fully embrace the path of the swashbuckler, not a _______ that happens to use some fancy footwork.
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When the feat states "Gunslinger level 11", I don't think it's "common sense" to ignore that.
For all we know, it's intended to be Gunslinger only, and the text of the Swashbuckler ability is the one that's in error.
You and I certainly have disagreed before about what's common sense and what isn't. Let's agree to agree that a FAQ should be issued.
The hero lab developers are claiming that swashbuckler class levels don't satisfy the prerequisites for the signature deed feat. Does pg 56 of the ACG say otherwise?
Seems like Herolab got one right this time. Nothing in the swashbuckler class lets them count as a gunslinger and the feat requires 11 levels of that class.
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The hero lab developers are claiming that swashbuckler class levels don't satisfy the prerequisites for the signature deed feat. Does pg 56 of the ACG say otherwise?Seems like Herolab got one right this time. Nothing in the swashbuckler class lets them count as a gunslinger and the feat requires 11 levels of that class.
Did ACG simply have an editing mistake that left out an explicit rule that swashbuckler levels count as gunslinger levels as well as fighter levels when qualifying for feats? It's probable. Don't know for sure, but likely enough that it's "reasonable" to allow a swashbuckler to take the feat.
Another way to look at it is would the feat, had UC been published after ACG rather than vice versa, still be worded that way? If you sincerely believe that it would, then go ahead and ban it at your table.
The hero lab developers are claiming that swashbuckler class levels don't satisfy the prerequisites for the signature deed feat. Does pg 56 of the ACG say otherwise?Seems like Herolab got one right this time. Nothing in the swashbuckler class lets them count as a gunslinger and the feat requires 11 levels of that class.Did ACG simply have an editing mistake that left out an explicit rule that swashbuckler levels count as gunslinger levels as well as fighter levels when qualifying for feats? It's probable. Don't know for sure, but likely enough that it's "reasonable" to allow a swashbuckler to take the feat.
Another way to look at it is would the feat, had UC been published after ACG rather than vice versa, still be worded that way? If you sincerely believe that it would, then go ahead and ban it at your table.
deusvult, there is a LOT of things that need looked at from the new books. I have NO way to figure out if this is an oversight or a deliberate omission. So by RAW, you have to go with what the feat says: Gunslingers only. I don't think it'll be a big deal if you wish to houserule that swashbucklers can use it.
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deusvult, there is a LOT of things that need looked at from the new books. I have NO way to figure out if this is an oversight or a deliberate omission. So by RAW, you have to go with what the feat says: Gunslingers only. I don't think it'll be a big deal if you wish to houserule that swashbucklers can use it.The hero lab developers are claiming that swashbuckler class levels don't satisfy the prerequisites for the signature deed feat. Does pg 56 of the ACG say otherwise?Seems like Herolab got one right this time. Nothing in the swashbuckler class lets them count as a gunslinger and the feat requires 11 levels of that class.Did ACG simply have an editing mistake that left out an explicit rule that swashbuckler levels count as gunslinger levels as well as fighter levels when qualifying for feats? It's probable. Don't know for sure, but likely enough that it's "reasonable" to allow a swashbuckler to take the feat.
Another way to look at it is would the feat, had UC been published after ACG rather than vice versa, still be worded that way? If you sincerely believe that it would, then go ahead and ban it at your table.
And when invoking RAI, one could just as rightly say they're supposed to.. unless and until a FAQ is issued. Until such time I likewise have no issues if you want to houserule that they may not use it at your tables.
And when invoking RAI, one could just as rightly say they're supposed to.. unless and until a FAQ is issued.
My issue with this is we're in the rules forum and there is a clear RAW answer. The OP's question has a clear answer by RAW.
As far as RAI, there is nothing from stopping someone from taking 11 levels of gunslinger and 3 of swashbuckler so the limit of signature deed on Precise Strike really doesn't point to anything.
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And when invoking RAI, one could just as rightly say they're supposed to.. unless and until a FAQ is issued.My issue with this is we're in the rules forum and there is a clear RAW answer. The OP's question has a clear answer by RAW.
As far as RAI, there is nothing from stopping someone from taking 11 levels of gunslinger and 3 of swashbuckler so the limit of signature deed on Precise Strike really doesn't point to anything.
I respect your opinion.
However, sometimes.. and not every time, but sometimes.. and maybe this time, RAW goes against RAI and RAI is what's actually right. Hence my support for FAQ candidacy for this particular rules interaction.
And when invoking RAI, one could just as rightly say they're supposed to.. unless and until a FAQ is issued.My issue with this is we're in the rules forum and there is a clear RAW answer. The OP's question has a clear answer by RAW.
As far as RAI, there is nothing from stopping someone from taking 11 levels of gunslinger and 3 of swashbuckler so the limit of signature deed on Precise Strike really doesn't point to anything.
I respect your opinion.
However, sometimes.. and not every time, but sometimes.. and maybe this time, RAW goes against RAI and RAI is what's actually right.
If this was the RAI section of the boards, that might be valid. This, however, is the rules questions forum. RAI'd be something that'd be perfect for the ACG potential error thread though.
So if you feel this is wrong, go for it and FAQ it. The RAW on this might change whenever the errata/FAQ comes out but until then we have to work with the RAW we have.
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Misprints happen. Editing mistakes happen. You said/suggested that yourself.
When mistakes happen, are they inadvertently canonized until correction? You seem to be saying yes. I'd say that is definitely not the paradigm of a (human run) roleplaying game. That's what happens when computers run things. Humans are expected to look at what may be erroneous and consider the possibility that other humans made a mistake somewhere in writing, editing, printing, etc.
I'd say, that when the writers' intent does at least suggest that the written example may not be right, the RAW then may not be right despite it being RAW. Not always, not even usually, but Sometimes.
Rule as written. Only errata and FAQ can alter the actual print. it's pretty straight forward.
As far as writers intent, it's been proven wrong several times. We've had people that made things come one the boards and say that what they sent in wasn't what was printed. Anyone in the publishing line could have changed the text and might have had a different intent than the author. Neither you or I can know for sure what the RAI is but we sure can tell what's written on the page.
If you feel it's wrong, post in the errata thread. The OP question was "Does pg 56 of the ACG" allow you to take signature deed. The RAW answer is no and it's pretty clear.
As I've said before, I have to agree with the RAW answer that it says 'gunslinger 11th desn't equal swashbuckler 11th'. If it was written like the other grit deed feats from that book, and had been written as such while stll requiring a character level of 11, I'd argue this till such time as there was an errata.
So, until changed, RAW is swashbucklers can't take signature deed.
My other arguement about grit and panache users I stand adamantly behind. But that isn't what this thread is about, and I won't continue it here. I might post it as a seperate thread so we can argue it there, but I won't force it on this thread. If people do want to try to tell me I'm wrong, we can do it there.
I hope Paizo checks all the Swashbuckler deeds before they errata that Swashbuckler can take Signature Deed. One problem I see is nearly unlimited parries for a dex-based class using Combat Reflexes with Opportune Riposte and Parry. They'll average seven plus parries a round using Signature Deed with opportune riposte and parry.
Unlimited Death Attacks at high level for a class that will have a crit range in the 15-20 range. No wording indicating the opponent is immune for 24 hours.
Paizo needs to stop letting easily exploited rules slip into the game. It's becoming a huge problem for DMs.
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Its a level 11 very niche feat.
You could parry many times. You can riposte once, since its an inmediate action
Death attacks dont come in play until level 19 anyway...
Otherwise i think it would be fairly weak compared to say a barbarian's "come and get me"
Or the duelist which can do this earlier anyway
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I CAST BREATH OF LIFE ON THREAD
I'd Like to throw a wrench into this argument in support for the RAI argument over the RAW argument
One of the arguments is the fact that Precise Strike says you can't use signature deed on it (and can thus use it on others). Some have speculated (the RAI side) that this is clear intent for it to be used with Gunslinger while others (the RAW side) state that
"taking 11 levels of gunslinger and 3 of swashbuckler so the limit of signature deed on Precise Strike really doesn't point to anything."
HOWEVER!!!! DUN DUN DUN!!!
The inspired blade archtype adds a new deed to a 11th level Swashbuckler that ALSO says "The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by abilities such as Signature Deed."
Thus unless you had an 11th level swashbuckler and an 11th level gunslinger (a 22nd level player) you can't do it
Now argueable you can allow for above 20th level players, but I've never seen anything that requires over 20th level in order to use. Thus I believe that the RAI is correct in this argument.
You and I certainly have disagreed before about what's common sense and what isn't. Let's agree to agree that a FAQ should be issued.When the feat states "Gunslinger level 11", I don't think it's "common sense" to ignore that.
For all we know, it's intended to be Gunslinger only, and the text of the Swashbuckler ability is the one that's in error.
Seeing how bad most of the FAQs are I am very careful about requesting one.
In the end the result might be that suddenly the gunslinger can't take that feat anymore.