Yes, it sounds like you have tried to confront him on these issues and he is unwilling to change. I think a ban is justified
some people just dont play well with others...tell him to go graduate kindergarden again, then he can come back...
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Just let him know exactly why has been kicked. Gives him a chance to better himself for his next group. He probably won't though.
Toxic players are ruinous to the whole game experience for everyone.
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Got to agree with everyone else.
I really don't understand the mindset that thinks cheating at a cooperative game is 'fun'. All he's doing is spoiling the game for everyone else at the table. Well, guess what? His 'fun' isn't more important than the fun of everyone else.
Boot him with extreme prejudice, explain why, since even someone as toxic as this guy deserves at least that much. Do it before the next session, and do it in person.
If you want to sugar-coat, go for something like "your play style isn't meshing well with the rest of the group, so we decided that it would be best if you were no longer part of the group".
If you're confident enough in yourself, just tell him outright that cheating isn't welcome in this group (and that you have personally observed it), nor is lying about character abilities (which you have personally verified), and that questioning the GMs rulings is detrimental to a smooth game. That you have given him every reasonable opportunity to alter his behaviour, but he refuses to do so, and as such the group has decided that he is no longer desired as a member.
Then just walk away. Don't listen to any arguments. He deserves to know what and why, but he has no right to anything else.
Good luck!
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Are you right in kicking him? I believe so. You've gone above and beyond by dealing with his s*#~ on a continuous basis. If you want to take another step or two, here is what I would do.
First, when you are gaming, have the rule of Open rolling. Everyone rolls out in the open and may NOT touch the dice or move it until at least one other person takes a look at it. If it is snatched away before the result is confirmed it's an automatic reroll. Consistent snatching up results in a ban. Most players will have no problem with this at all. The ones that do are hiding something and that is an even better reason to enforce the rule.
Secondly, when ruling, if there is a question on an ability, the person using the ability in question has 30 seconds to look it up or their character is in delay until they do and can show you. 30 seconds doesn't seem like a lot but it keeps the flow of the game. You can of course give lee-way up or down if you desire. The alternative to this is making a GM call and telling the player unless he can show you where it says it does what he says then your call stands.
Since starting to play PFS I've had to use these rules, though slightly aggravating it has saved my sanity more than once. Hope this helps.
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I prefer the 'win at all costs' mentality be played out by the character, not the player. Catching a serial cheater sucks though. He's got to go.
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Yeah from what you say you are doing the right thing.
But I would not kick him out of the group at the start of a session after a vote as you seem to saying for a couple of reason.
1) It is kinda a bad thing to do that in front of everyone...he might cause a scene...or a bunch of other things.
2) It is kinda of rude to have somebody take the time to travel to where ever you play putting off other plans possibly to be told to go home.
I would do it my e-mail or in person before the game.
I'd want to do it by email, because I'm not good at face to face things like this. It might be the best way to handle it, though. No matter if it's true or not, I've never known someone accused of cheating to take it well when confronted about it.
I agree with John Kretzer, if you are going to kick him, kick him privately, no need to make a scene. But in fact, I would write him an email saying the conditions of his behavior for a joining a game in the first place is to co-operate, because you can't a run a game without it, no exceptions.
But if you really want to be a meany, create a torture scene where he gets killed and revived multiple times by the other players. See how it turns out. ;)
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No votes. Fun for everyone is mandatory. If his cheating is ruining their fun and he is unwilling to abide by the table's rules then he can find a group more to his liking.
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Ok so I caught one of my players cheating I was watching his rolls because I had the other players in my group tell me that he was lying on his dice rolls they had other complaints but I addressed those this player that is cheating has also told me that certain feats that I haven't heard of worked one way but when I look them up I learn that they don't work that way at all or he only gave me half of the description also he is always arguing with my about rules or callings that I make and in the end I always prove him wrong I have tried talking to him about everything but the cheating and at the next session in having a group vote as to whether or not he be allowed to stay but I already know what the results are going to be and I take the decision to kick someone from the table seriously but at the same time I have spoken to other GMs in the area and it turns out that he has been baned from their table as well and would refuse to play at a table he sits at I guess wat I'm asking is am I making the right decision kicking him from my table
For the love of Primus, dude. Punctuation!
And yes, you are making the right decision. Tell him precisely why, as well.
Yup, give him the old Spanish archer!
The important thing is to remain calm no matter what. When a person like this gets kicked out (again!) they might become belligerent and try egging you on. Don't take the bait, just be mature and civil about it, and once you've cut ties then the rest of you can turn your focus back to having fun again.
You may also want to record the conversation, if possible, just in case.
You may also want to record the conversation, if possible, just in case.
In that case, email is probably the best option.
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Stay away from the clocktowers.
Hmm, I've gamed with someone for 10+ years who occasionally cheats on his rolls. I guess I never felt the need to kick him from the group. I wouldn't kick someone to the curb, if their only flaw is an occasional episode of cheating. As a GM, it is fairly easy to compensate to negate a single person's cheating.
Specify strict procedures for rolling dice. Like, the dice must be clearly readable, and all rolls must be witnessed by another. Make a dice rolling pen for the center of the table, and rolls only count if they are done in the pen. Define procedures for 'cocked' dice, and so on.
Hmm, I've gamed with someone for 10+ years who occasionally cheats on his rolls. I guess I never felt the need to kick him from the group. I wouldn't kick someone to the curb, if their only flaw is an occasional episode of cheating. As a GM, it is fairly easy to compensate to negate a single person's cheating.
Maybe it is easy, but you shouldn't have to.
You're all adults (presumably...though nobody mentioned ages, and I suppose this could be a group of teens or kids). You should just expect that everyone is playing by the rules. It's not a professional sport where you win a title, or gambling where there's money on the line if you win or lose, etc, it's a group of guys and/or gals getting together to tell a collaborative story using established rules. There's no advantage to winning. Heck, with rezz spells, there's barely a disadvantage to losing. (With some GMs, who let you come back with your new character at level with proper starting gold, there's no real disadvantage, save the annoyance of making a new character.)
Someone who cheats doesn't really want to play the game. They want to play "I win at everything, and here's how I do it." Personally, if I can't just trust a player to be honest with me, I don't want them at the table. Attempting to make the most amazing character using the rules as written with optimization I can handle; I take that kind of thing as a challenge as a GM, and attempt to optimize the enemies in turn, or increase my own tactical positioning/challenge building, etc. But flat-out lying about numbers? Well, in that instance, the player is clearly interested in something different than I am as far as results and expectations. Not only that, but it just seems...I don't know...disrespectful to the GM and other players.
The prayer you're talking about is probably (very) authistic. He also likes roleplaying a lot.
Not saying you should keep him, just some things you could keep in mind when discussing with either him or your group.
An other option you could try is punishing a cheated roll, by like 100 gp/level. (Please think of something better).
If he keeps spoiling things he has to go to prevent nice players leaving but I suggest you debate this.
who cheats at one of these things? The whole point is to have fun.
And some people really, really hate losing. Those people should of course simply not play games, but there you go.
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Are you guys serious about being worried about there being legal problems because your refusing to let a guy play in your group !!!!!!
Sorry but coming from England that seems like one f~!@ed up legal system
Are you guys serious about being worried about there being legal problems because your refusing to let a guy play in your group !!!!!!
Sorry but coming from England that seems like one f$+*ed up legal system
There is a problem with recording a conversation if the other party doesn't know about it. In the US, many states have laws making that illegal.
If you feel the need to consistently cheat to "Win" then that says something about your character and youre not the type of person that i want to be around. If you make excuses for someone else's need to consistently cheat then that says something about your character and youre not the type of person that I want to be around.
Either way the person that the OP is talking about needs to find another group.
It's a GAME FFS, just take your lumps. If you have to feel the need to cheat an RPG then seriously, what kind of person are you?
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Your player may need to win all the time, in which case I don't think that there is much hope for him.
If, however, he just hates to lose, there may be ways to deal with it.
In PFS, there are shirt (and other) re-rolls. You might want to go to a Hero Points system (APG).
The Weapon Master archetype gets a free attack (or confirm or damage) re-roll for every five levels she has.
A Bit of Luck from the Luck Domain is a great buff since it lets the player roll two D20s for the entire next round.
If you did all of the above, he might still want to cheat. So, you should have all of you players call out the rolls of adjacent players.
It might very well be too late for any of this to work.
(On the subject of losing: for chess players, the pain of losing is four or five times greater than the pleasure of winning. Sorry, I saw this a long time ago, so I don't have a citation.)
Are you guys serious about being worried about there being legal problems because your refusing to let a guy play in your group !!!!!!
Sorry but coming from England that seems like one f&#+ed up legal system
You're quite right, our legal system is messed up.
We're worried more, though, in this case, about the rejected player getting threatening and/or violent.
There is a problem with recording a conversation if the other party doesn't know about it. In the US, many states have laws making that illegal.Are you guys serious about being worried about there being legal problems because your refusing to let a guy play in your group !!!!!!
Sorry but coming from England that seems like one f$+*ed up legal system
That is quite true for audio conversations, but if it's done by email or skype then it's a written conversation and is considered to be a physical copy, thus there is no issue there at all.
There is a problem with recording a conversation if the other party doesn't know about it. In the US, many states have laws making that illegal.
And yet, YouTube exists.
There is a problem with recording a conversation if the other party doesn't know about it. In the US, many states have laws making that illegal.And yet, YouTube exists.
*shrug* At this point the US legal system is made up almost totally of idiotic laws devised by idiotic politicians who were voted into office by idiotic voters.
That is quite true for audio conversations, but if it's done by email or skype then it's a written conversation and is considered to be a physical copy, thus there is no issue there at all.
Quite right, but the initial comment that mentioned recording the conversation didn't mention the method, therefore someone just advised taking care when doing so.
If you're worried about your safety to the point of wanting to record the conversation then it's most definitely time to drop him from the group. If it gets out of hand then call the cops. I honestly think that people are probably worried over nothing.
Yup, give him the old Spanish archer!Spanish archer?
Yeah, El Bow.
;-)
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First, when you are gaming, have the rule of Open rolling. Everyone rolls out in the open and may NOT touch the dice or move it until at least one other person takes a look at it. If it is snatched away before the result is confirmed it's an automatic reroll. Consistent snatching up results in a ban. Most players will have no problem with this at all. The ones that do are hiding something and that is an even better reason to enforce the rule.
I think a better way to handle it is if the person touches/snatches it before it's confirmed, it's a nat 1. no need to start banning players this way.
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Trust your instincts. I run a Meetup writers group with 400+ members. In the ten years of running the group, we've had to ban 3 people. Not a bad ratio, in my opinion.
Although I have a lot of volunteers keeping my group running smoothly, as group Organizer (and the person with the best diplomacy skill in real life) I'm the one who gets to ban people.
We did kick out someone who had shown irrational and occasionally violent behavior. He left one of our meetings, and kicked the glass out of a bus stop shelter (we saw him from the windows) and then came back.... twitchy. I pulled him aside and said, "I'm sorry, but property damage -- even offsite property damage -- is something we can't have in this group. It makes both our venue and our members unhappy. You know you have to go now, right?"
I then sent him an email informing him of his ban. I kept it short. Long does you no favors, and gives them room to argue.
When letting someone go:
1) Keep it impersonal -- reference the behavior or rules violation, not the personality;
2) Keep it short
3) Keep it clear.
It's the only way to go.
Hmm
When letting someone go:
1) Keep it impersonal -- reference the behavior or rules violation, not the personality;
2) Keep it short
3) Keep it clear.It's the only way to go.
Hmm
This.
There's several dynamic levels going on here;
1. If the guy is cheating but is otherwise fun to be with, you need to let him know that you know he is cheating and that it is ruining the game for the others.
2. If the guy is cheating and is also not a nice guy then treat it as you would another social event - just stop inviting him/ask him not to come again.
3. If he's a pain in bum and an excellent player, see No. 2.
Gaming is not a job. It is not something we need to do. We choose to spend our free time gaming, and for many of us it is a rare break from the Real World. Why anyone would choose to be saddled with a social companion that they dislike is beyond me.
I know, but a grown person getting kicked out of multiple groups and continue cheating can mean there is something more going on. Autistic came to mind because it sounded like he was describing my little brother (who I'd hate to have in my dnd group to be honest). Could be a lot of things, and autistic can mean a lot of things. My point was that the player probably some issues bigger than "hate to roll bad".
My advice would be to just tell him he can't come anymore if you catch him cheating again, than he knows what's the deal and it sounds fair.
Edit: I just feel sorry for the guy, would suck to be in his shoes, even if he deserved it. We had to kick out one player because of his behaviour and it's an awful thing to do.
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Being an insecure jackass does not autistic make.
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Also, being autistic does not grand you leave to be a jackass.