Sash of the War Champion + Fighter only?


Rules Questions


Sash of the War Champion

Quote:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

Side One) You have zero levels in fighter, so you should be treated as a 4th level fighter for the purpose of armor training & bravery.

Side Two) You have to have access to Armor Training & bravery class features to use this item, otherwise its useless

Is there any rules to back up either side?


I figure most people would say that it affects "his fighter level" which a non-fighter has none of, so it can't be affected.

Pure RAW you could probably argue your zero level thing, but pure RAW is usually hilariously broken and nonsensical.


Side One: You are treated as a 4th level fighter for these class features. The item does not grand these abilities however so unless there's some weird archetype i don't know about there is no benefit.

Side 2: Correct.


Well, there are two FAQs about when you receive class features and how class abilities replaced by archetypes interact with things that improve those abilities, which could be considered to apply in this case.

There's also the precedent of items such as the Monk's Robe, which calls out what effect it has if the wearer has no levels in Monk.

Taking these two together, I would say that you have to have at least 1 level in a fighter archetype that doesn't trade out Armor Training and Bravery to benefit from the Sash of the War Champion. Otherwise, you could just take an archetype of fighter that trades out Armor Training and Bravery and then pick up a 4,000 gp magic item to get these two features back.

That seems to break the intent of the second FAQ, to me.

However, it's not clear, and reasonable people might disagree.


Gwen Smith wrote:

Well, there are two FAQs about when you receive class features and how class abilities replaced by archetypes interact with things that improve those abilities, which could be considered to apply in this case.

There's also the precedent of items such as the Monk's Robe, which calls out what effect it has if the wearer has no levels in Monk.

Taking these two together, I would say that you have to have at least 1 level in a fighter archetype that doesn't trade out Armor Training and Bravery to benefit from the Sash of the War Champion. Otherwise, you could just take an archetype of fighter that trades out Armor Training and Bravery and then pick up a 4,000 gp magic item to get these two features back.

That seems to break the intent of the second FAQ, to me.

However, it's not clear, and reasonable people might disagree.

You need to have the actual class features in order to gain the benefit of the item. A fighter along with any other character without armor training at a given level does not gain it. For example, a base fighter 2 would only get an increase to his bravery class feature. At level 3 though, once he has gained the Armor Training class feature, he would be treated as level 7 for it.

The only question is classes that gain armor training as the fighter class feature. I would say they can benefit from that portion of the item once they gain the feature, since all instances that I know of stack with fighter levels.(For example, steelblood bloodragers gain armor training at 5)


Both of the link you provided link to the same FAQ "When do I count as having a class feature?".

The monk's robe does specifically call out about not having levels in monk and it is the only item that does such (as far as I know). However the monk's robe is almost a word-for-word copy of the 3.5 monk's belt and not a specific pathfinder item.

If you can't use the item without the class feature then you couldn't use the belt's armor training until you were already a 3rd level fighter (if were going off the FAQ sited in the above post applying to magical items). If the item doesn't affect you if you don't have the class feature, and fighters don't gain Armor Training till 3rd, then you have to be a 4th level fighter to use the Armor Training ability of the sash.

I don't think this was the intent.
-----
"The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features."

If the sash said something similar to what the spiteful armor enchantment said "This armor’s ability functions only if its wearer has the panache class feature." I would agree wholeheartedly that it couldn't be used by someone without the panache class feature. But the belt says you treat your fighter level as 4 higher. Four higher than none is four, not zero.


Splendor wrote:

Both of the link you provided link to the same FAQ "When do I count as having a class feature?".

The monk's robe does specifically call out about not having levels in monk and it is the only item that does such (as far as I know). However the monk's robe is almost a word-for-word copy of the 3.5 monk's belt and not a specific pathfinder item.

If you can't use the item without the class feature then you couldn't use the belt's armor training until you were already a 3rd level fighter (if were going off the FAQ sited in the above post applying to magical items). If the item doesn't affect you if you don't have the class feature, and fighters don't gain Armor Training till 3rd, then you have to be a 4th level fighter to use the Armor Training ability of the sash.

I don't think this was the intent.

That is exactly the intent. You dont gain any benefit for reading ahead in the leveling chart. If you cant look at your character sheet and find armor training or bravery on it, the sash does nothing.


Splendor wrote:

Sash of the War Champion

Quote:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

Side One) You have zero levels in fighter, so you should be treated as a 4th level fighter for the purpose of armor training & bravery.

Side Two) You have to have access to Armor Training & bravery class features to use this item, otherwise its useless

Is there any rules to back up either side?

Side 1. I love the idea, but I can't imagine a PFS DM allowing it. Ask around, if I wouldn't do it, nobody should!

Side 2. I always thought that if you had some fighter archetype that had class abilities that replaced Armor Training and Bravery, the magic item advanced those, instead. For instance, a 2-handed fighter gets a bonus on Sunder Checks instead of a bonus in bravery. The Sash would give that fighter a bonus on Sunder Checks.


Compare the Sash to Monk Robes:

PRD wrote:

Sash of the War Champion: This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

...
Monk's Robes: This simple brown robe, when worn, confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.

The Monk's Robes have a provision for a non-Monk to, effectively, gain the class features that Monk's Robes affect. SotWC, on the other hand, has no such provision. Therefore, you must bring your own Armor Training and Bravery class features by some other means. But, as has been stated, there are no other classes (other than maybe 3rd party) that provide these class abilities; they are Fighter exclusives.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Sash of the war champion is mainly beneficial for:

1) Characters with only a few levels of fighter (typically 3) to gain Armor Training 2 (full movement in heavy armor)

2) Fighter archetypes that keep at least Armor Training 1, but trade out Armor Training 2+ (such as dragoon, mobile fighter, and unbreakable), to gain effectively one extra level of Armor Training

3) Fighters who want an extra +1 max Dex and one point more of ACP reduction (can be worth the 4,000 gp for certain armor/Dex combinations).


Kazaan wrote:


The Monk's Robes have a provision for a non-Monk to, effectively, gain the class features that Monk's Robes affect. SotWC, on the other hand, has no such provision. Therefore, you must bring your own Armor Training and Bravery class features by some other means. But, as has been stated, there are no other classes (other than maybe 3rd party) that provide these class abilities; they are Fighter exclusives.

There are several archetypes of other classes that gain the Fighter armor training class feature, so the Sash might work for them, its a bit unclear. Namely, Steelblood Bloodragers and Myrmidarch Magi, and I think there are a couple more.


If they specify "as the Fighter class feature", then it counts as such for rules elements such as the SotWC. Myrmidarch does specify as such. Steelblood, on the other hand, only says it stacks with Fighter's version. So in the case of the Steelblood Bloodrager, you have two separate abilities that just so happen to have the same name, function, and a specific provision that allows them to stack; but otherwise the Bloodrager version doesn't count for rules elements specifically targeted at the Fighter's version. In the case of Myrmidarch, it actually counts as Fighter's Armor Training for the purpose of rules elements that would affect the Fighter's version.

Grand Lodge

Splendor wrote:

Both of the link you provided link to the same FAQ "When do I count as having a class feature?".

The monk's robe does specifically call out about not having levels in monk and it is the only item that does such (as far as I know). However the monk's robe is almost a word-for-word copy of the 3.5 monk's belt and not a specific pathfinder item.

If you can't use the item without the class feature then you couldn't use the belt's armor training until you were already a 3rd level fighter (if were going off the FAQ sited in the above post applying to magical items). If the item doesn't affect you if you don't have the class feature, and fighters don't gain Armor Training till 3rd, then you have to be a 4th level fighter to use the Armor Training ability of the sash.

I don't think this was the intent.
-----
"The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features."

If the sash said something similar to what the spiteful armor enchantment said "This armor’s ability functions only if its wearer has the panache class feature." I would agree wholeheartedly that it couldn't be used by someone without the panache class feature. But the belt says you treat your fighter level as 4 higher. Four higher than none is four, not zero.

Four higher than none is still none, in Pathfinder.

Just like having an 18 casting stat does not grant you bonus second level spells until you have at least a 0 in the list of spells per day for second level, rather than --.


kinevon wrote:

Four higher than none is still none, in Pathfinder.

Just like having an 18 casting stat does not grant you bonus second level spells until you have at least a 0 in the list of spells per day for second level, rather than --.

To put it another way, "none" and "zero" are mechanically differentiated in the Pathfinder system. A character without Armor Training has "none" and the sash doesn't change this. A character without Monk levels has "none", but Monk Robes effectively change this to "zero". Another example is early access to Eldritch Knight using an SLA. Eldritch Knight grants you +1 arcane spellcasting class level per level past 2nd. But if you are using only an SLA to access the PrC, you have "none" of arcane spellcasting class levels so the +1 is, effectively, wasted. By contrast, if you had an ability that lets you count as "zero" in a spellcasting class that you don't, actually, have any levels in, then Eldritch Knight would, arguably, increase that level so you can access the spells of that class. The closest I can think of for this example is the Arcane Training alternate racial trait for Half-Elves, which only applies to Spell Completion items.


Monk's Robe has provisions for not a monk.
Bane Baldric has provisions for not an inquisitor.

Sash of the War Champion has no provisions for a character without the class feature. You actually have to have Bravery or Armor Training. It also doesn't increase things that are replaced by Armor Training, only Armor Training itself.

Niche Item, but for 3 level fighter multiclass it gives full movement in heavy armor for 4k, and stacks with actual movement increases.


Slight thread necro (seems better than starting a new thread).

How does the Martial Training Brawler ability fit into this, see below (emphasis mine)?
Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

For example, say you have 6 levels of fighter and own the Sash of the War Champion. You are treated as a 10th level fighter for the purposes of Armor Training and Bravery. Now you take a level of Brawler. The way it is written seems to mean you would be treated as an 11th level fighter for the purposes of armor training and bravery. The sash would not grant a 2nd level fighter/x level Brawler the armor training ability, but once you have the ability, it seems like the sash would let brawler and fighter levels stack.


StratoNexus wrote:

Slight thread necro (seems better than starting a new thread).

How does the Martial Training Brawler ability fit into this, see below (emphasis mine)?
Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

For example, say you have 6 levels of fighter and own the Sash of the War Champion. You are treated as a 10th level fighter for the purposes of Armor Training and Bravery. Now you take a level of Brawler. The way it is written seems to mean you would be treated as an 11th level fighter for the purposes of armor training and bravery. The sash would not grant a 2nd level fighter/x level Brawler the armor training ability, but once you have the ability, it seems like the sash would let brawler and fighter levels stack.

Martial Training does not interact in any way with class features directly, only feats and magic items. So your Fighter 10/Brawler 1 would still be considered just Fighter 10 for bravery and armor training. Also, a Brawler X/Fighter 0 wearing a sash of the war champion would receive no benefit, as they do not have the bravery or armor training class features.


Calth wrote:
Martial Training does not interact in any way with class features directly, only feats and magic items.

But it is not the fighter class feature the Martial Training ability is interacting with (at least not directly), it is the magic item, the Sash of the War Champion.

The Sash lest you treat your fighter level as four higher for the purposes of armor training and bravery.
Martial Training lets you stack your fighter and brawler levels for the purposes of magic items.

I agree the Sash does not grant you abilities you do not have, but I am unsure if the intent of Martial Training is to allow you to stack the class levels in the case of magic item benefits. It seems that is one of the features of martial training.

If you are a monk 6/brawler 1, does the Monk's Robe allow you to treat your monk level as 11 or 12 for the purpose of AC and unarmed damage?


StratoNexus wrote:
Calth wrote:
Martial Training does not interact in any way with class features directly, only feats and magic items.

But it is not the fighter class feature the Martial Training ability is interacting with (at least not directly), it is the magic item, the Sash of the War Champion.

The Sash lest you treat your fighter level as four higher for the purposes of armor training and bravery.
Martial Training lets you stack your fighter and brawler levels for the purposes of magic items.

I agree the Sash does not grant you abilities you do not have, but I am unsure if the intent of Martial Training is to allow you to stack the class levels in the case of magic item benefits. It seems that is one of the features of martial training.

If you are a monk 6/brawler 1, does the Monk's Robe allow you to treat your monk level as 11 or 12 for the purpose of AC and unarmed damage?

Your mistake is that you are trying to combine multiple different effects into one when they don't combine. Martial Training does not let you stack the level of the classes for magic items, only feat prerequisites. It simply lets you count as a fighter or monk if an item has a different effect for fighters. Those are two very different things.

With your monk's robe example, you would be a monk 11 for AC and unarmed damage. But to go the other way, a brawler X wearing a monks robe would have effective level of X+5 for unarmed strike and armor training class features, thanks to martial training. Without martial training the item would do nothing for a high level brawler since their class features would be higher value than a 5th level monks.


Calth wrote:
With your monk's robe example, you would be a monk 11 for AC and unarmed damage. But to go the other way, a brawler X wearing a monks robe would have effective level of X+5 for unarmed strike and armor training class features, thanks to martial training. Without martial training the item would do nothing for a high level brawler since their class features would be higher value than a 5th level monks.

So a Brawler 5/Monk 5 would be treated as a brawler 10 / monk 10 for unarmed damage and ac bonus then (doing 1d10 damage with unarmed strikes and getting a +2 Dodge bonus to AC and a Wisdom mod +2 bonus to AC that goes away when he is immob, helpless, using armor/shield, or carrying medium or greater load)?

The Martial Training ability interaction with magic items is basically only to allow magic items to affect class abilities the Brawler actually gets that might be the same as abilities other classes get (i.e., the monks robe example)?

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